bullslink Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 If you've been to the official GRAW PC forums, you can see the number of complaints people have there against the enemy AI being oblivious, and the Ghost AI still being non-responsive, etc. etc. etc. What do you guys think about these complaints? If these problems do exist, will they be easy to fix for Grin? Perhaps by the next patch? I really liked GRAW, but there was one thing that eventually spoiled the SP for me and that was my Ghost's AI. I'd really like to buy GRAW 2, but I don't want to be frustrated and disappointed by the AI again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph_Q Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Friendly AI in GRAW2 is better than in GRAW1 but it is still an AI. I hade some situations when teammate covering my ass saved me but i also had some situations when AI couldnt find his way stucked at wall or an obstacle. I had to get back to point him "manualy" way around this car/building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahger Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 (edited) If you've been to the official GRAW PC forums, you can see the number of complaints people have there against the enemy AI being oblivious, and the Ghost AI still being non-responsive, etc. etc. etc. What do you guys think about these complaints? If these problems do exist, will they be easy to fix for Grin? Perhaps by the next patch? I really liked GRAW, but there was one thing that eventually spoiled the SP for me and that was my Ghost's AI. I'd really like to buy GRAW 2, but I don't want to be frustrated and disappointed by the AI again. I think the AI has been completely overhauled and the result is fantastic. Now your squadmates will find cover and provide effective support with a whole lot less babysitting and the options to give orders are much improved. The ability to deploy an AI Ghost via his HUD-cam is a huge improvement in itself. The implementation of Stealth/Aggression ROE modes is a tremendous enhancement and, while it needs a little tweaking to perfect the transitions necessary to pull of a stealth assault, this alone, along with the more open-ended maps, almost revolutionises gameplay in GRAW. I'd like to repeat just one time my constant mantra here in discussions about AI following the release of GRAW 1: While acknowledging certain shortcomings in the AI -- and the difference between AI in GRAW and AI in the sequel is night and day -- the fact is that the AI is designed for a slow, careful approach to small-unit combat which relflects the numerical difference between the four-man team and its more numerous enemies. You just cannot expect the AI to shine in this game when you attempt frontal assaults. The AI shines when the team is deployed for maximum stealth, cover, overwatch and intersecting fire-lanes. In short, GRAW now provides you with the tools, and the AI with the abilities to execute the four Fs: Find, Fix, Flank and Finish. You can suppress, countersnipe with the now functional "Attack" command and you can order a Stealth approach to the objective. If you fight this way, the AI will often exceed your grandest expectations. If you don't it's more of a crapshoot. Edited July 14, 2007 by Bahger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 (edited) I'm pleased with the AI except for one thing. When they are being shot at, they throw themselves on the ground and this way always get killed by the enemy AI because..well, they are lying on the ground for a sec or two not moving and make a perfect target. Instead they should run as hell for cover, since they already know when there is a wall, it should be something like..they figure out where from they are being shot at and run like crazy to the next nearest cover not in the line of fire. But with the things added and improved the AI is much better then GRAW 1, generally other titles. Also it is awesome to see when you left them to cover a long road and you give the "Follow" order they don't start running to you blind, but moving to you effective with mostly one of them covers the others. First time to see that in a game since ArmA. Edited July 14, 2007 by rookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Smith Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 I think the best way to get the most out of your AI is to constantly use the tactical map (This is experience from the SP demo, the game isn't out yet in the US), and they'll do a damn fine job with the orders you give them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullslink Posted July 14, 2007 Author Share Posted July 14, 2007 (edited) What about the enemy AI? Apparently, they never seem to be able to spot you on any difficulty in some situations. Also, recon mode is like an invisibility cloak for you and soldiers according to one guy on the forums. Edited July 14, 2007 by bullslink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mafia_boy Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 The AI has definatly improved but ive still noticed the odd soldier getting lost or stuck behind a wall or barrier, but as someone said using the tactical map is a must at times. As for the ememy AI i think is very good, im playing it on hard setting and the accuracy of the enemy soldiers is very realistic indeed, i like that in a singleplayer, it makes you more wary of your surroundings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullslink Posted July 14, 2007 Author Share Posted July 14, 2007 Oh yes! I WILL BUY THIS FOR SURE NOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desrat Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 For me the probs lie squarely with the enemy AI and game difficulty levels.. Firstly the enemy Ai seem to have two settings depending on their range to you, at distance they are as they should be. Elite crack shots, hesitate too long to take them out and your screwed, but manage to sneak up on them and they turn into morons. As soon as your within 10 yards of them it's as if you dont exist. Secondly the difficulty. None of the difficulty levels seem to have a good balance IMO and all increasing it seems to do is make the bad guys find you much much quicker. Easy and Normal are both too easy, Hard is probably closest to a good balance but is still a little too easy and Hardcore OMG they just went nuts with that and ramped the AI alertness levels to superhuman. I mean they spy me through walls for gods sake. For me the enemy AI is the single biggest problem of this game (bugs and all). I'd also like to see an increase in enemy levels as the areas feel empty as apposed to GRAW1. Its travel 10 mins, kill a small camp, travel 10 mins , take out Blah Blah, and then repeat infinitum. I dont mind traversing a lot of terrain if the firefight is tense and somewhat overwhelming in number but no 5 guys and move on.. As for the friendly Ai thats actually quite good, some path finding issue but nothing really problematic. I would like to know who decided to turn em into a bunch of fags tho . I mean cmon I dont need some guy telling me "Great shot Captain" and all that crap, I dont mind them telling me a guy went down but really I dont need the guy to blow me I have a wife for that and my self esteem isn't low enough for it to be gratifying. I never really got into GRAW1 till 1.35 mainly due to my original rig not being up to the task, but once their I loved every minute of it, this I have to say will get tedious real fast if its not changed in some way (mod or patch either is good for me).. Hopefully someone else feels the same and something gets done, cos otherwise it looks like I'm gonna have to start delving myself and I have no idea where to start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 If you've been to the official GRAW PC forums, you can see the number of complaints people have there against the enemy AI being oblivious, and the Ghost AI still being non-responsive, etc. etc. etc. What do you guys think about these complaints? If these problems do exist, will they be easy to fix for Grin? Perhaps by the next patch? I really liked GRAW, but there was one thing that eventually spoiled the SP for me and that was my Ghost's AI. I'd really like to buy GRAW 2, but I don't want to be frustrated and disappointed by the AI again. The AI both friendly and enemy are different throughout the game, [GR] they are mean as hell, in sp missions with your own AI its a mixed bag some times great and sometimes not this will improve with patches. Sp missions MP with 4 or six men is very good the enemy ai are very sharp most of the time. If I look at the whole game both friendly ai and enemy ai need work but not a lot it is after all an indevidual thing as a player your skill level will difer from another player. What is hard to one is easy to another. Some things do stand out a mex ai who has just been shot and another one very near will not react at all this is for the patching process. If I was only a SP player gamer I may be disapointed in the ai at the level of play I can play at, but as a new comer I might find it hard. There are some problems but I am certain they are being looked at and fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desrat Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 There are some problems but I am certain they are being looked at and fixed. I certainly don't doubt that, I was impressed by the improvements in GRAW1 through patches and I presume the same will happen here.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecmic Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) If you've been to the official GRAW PC forums, you can see the number of complaints people have there against the enemy AI being oblivious, and the Ghost AI still being non-responsive, etc. etc. etc. What do you guys think about these complaints? If these problems do exist, will they be easy to fix for Grin? Perhaps by the next patch? I really liked GRAW, but there was one thing that eventually spoiled the SP for me and that was my Ghost's AI. I'd really like to buy GRAW 2, but I don't want to be frustrated and disappointed by the AI again. They certainly do exist! Not only team members but rescued individuals, the Mule and even the tank in ACTIII Joined Forces, frequently DO NOT RESPOND to commands. Edited July 16, 2007 by tecmic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONDLIFE Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Guess those disappointed with the enemy AI should wait and see if Jason does another AI mod for GRAW2 like he did for the first; certainly made for a tougher challenge That is unless GRiN reworks it for a patch. Still a damn fine game though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAbbi_74 Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Friendly AI in GRAW2 is better than in GRAW1 but it is still an AI. I hade some situations when teammate covering my ass saved me but i also had some situations when AI couldnt find his way stucked at wall or an obstacle. I had to get back to point him "manualy" way around this car/building. This was the part of [GR] that worked out so well. They were all kinda no-names, and switching around from one to the next when it was time to finesse (read: micromanage) them into place or out of a bad situation was cool therefore. You jump into the teammate's body, lead him/her and the fire team as needed, then move on to whatever's next. It didn't matter that Mitchell would be left to AI algo's to survive- he was jsut another Ghost without whom the mission could still be accomplished. But the AI in GRAW had their moments of genius- usually the enemy AI, but whatever. If we've improved on those and reduced the occurrence of AI ignorance, then this is good. It's a step in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 For me the drop of optional soul switching (as it was in GR) was devastating to the SP GRAW gameplay. I fear it will be the same in GRAW 2. I never bothered to make it more than a few missions of SP in GRAW because I got so annoyed with friendly AI that took routes to places I did not want them to go or they started to fire at enemies when I did not want them to. And to go solo with Mitchell was not fun either. In GR1 I could play any team member I wanted to in first person view. The control of the movement and action was so much greater, thus the exceptionally great gameplay experience and thrill in GR1, even for SP. I played the team, not only Captain Mitchell. Imo, the SP GRAW series has become too much of an unflexible "set-up-the-friendly-AI-to-take-the-enemy-out" board strategy game and too little of a strategical first person shooter. I probably will not be so happy with SP in GRAW 2 either even if I will try to try it with an open mind one day or the other. If only UBI/GRIN had left the optional soul switching intact, players like me would enjoy the SP so much more, while the guys wanting to play a strict "in-Mitchell's-body-game" could still do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoGRIN Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 For me the drop of optional soul switching (as it was in GR) was devastating to the SP GRAW gameplay. I fear it will be the same in GRAW 2. I never bothered to make it more than a few missions of SP in GRAW because I got so annoyed with friendly AI that took routes to places I did not want them to go or they started to fire at enemies when I did not want them to. And to go solo with Mitchell was not fun either. In GR1 I could play any team member I wanted to in first person view. The control of the movement and action was so much greater, thus the exceptionally great gameplay experience and thrill in GR1, even for SP. I played the team, not only Captain Mitchell. Imo, the SP GRAW series has become too much of an unflexible "set-up-the-friendly-AI-to-take-the-enemy-out" board strategy game and too little of a strategical first person shooter. I probably will not be so happy with SP in GRAW 2 either even if I will try to try it with an open mind one day or the other. If only UBI/GRIN had left the optional soul switching intact, players like me would enjoy the SP so much more, while the guys wanting to play a strict "in-Mitchell's-body-game" could still do so. In GRAW2 you can control their movement by giving individual orders - through their head camera (Buddy Camera - press G) I think you will like it as it is a good merge of Realism and Gameplay Bo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 In GRAW2 you can control their movement by giving individual orders - through their head camera (Buddy Camera - press G) I think you will like it as it is a good merge of Realism and Gameplay Bo I'm not sure if you mean that is any different from GRAW 1, because as the control was in GRAW 1, it was not very accurate. If I wanted the friendly AI to move a few yards or so to get a certain view or cover, it was just a mess... Also, I know you can argue it is more realistic using no soul switching, but for me leaving that option out, ruined a great deal of the pure fun of SP gaming. I guess, as primarily an MP gamer, I too much like to do the action part myself , i.e. aiming & shooting , not only "passively" watch a friendly AI shoot (via the buddy cam). I honestly don't care much about the realism aspect of soul switching, it is a pc game and it is supposed to be fun, it is not a sim, and besides it was optional to use - an option that no longer exists. I'll naturally try GRAW 2 out with an open mind, including the SP, but judging from some of the posts it seems you've found a better compromize with GRAW 2 than for GRAW 1 and I congratulate you for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoGRIN Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 In GRAW2 you can control their movement by giving individual orders - through their head camera (Buddy Camera - press G) I think you will like it as it is a good merge of Realism and Gameplay Bo I'm not sure if you mean that is any different from GRAW 1, because as the control was in GRAW 1, it was not very accurate. If I wanted the friendly AI to move a few yards or so to get a certain view or cover, it was just a mess... Also, I know you can argue it is more realistic using no soul switching, but for me leaving that option out, ruined a great deal of the pure fun of SP gaming. I guess, as primarily an MP gamer, I too much like to do the action part myself , i.e. aiming & shooting , not only "passively" watch a friendly AI shoot (via the buddy cam). I honestly don't care much about the realism aspect of soul switching, it is a pc game and it is supposed to be fun, it is not a sim, and besides it was optional to use - an option that no longer exists. I'll naturally try GRAW 2 out with an open mind, including the SP, but judging from some of the posts it seems you've found a better compromize with GRAW 2 than for GRAW 1 and I congratulate you for that. Nope in GRAW1 you could look through the buddy cam not as in GRAw2 give orders throught it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeagol77 Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I honestly don't care much about the realism aspect of soul switching, it is a pc game and it is supposed to be fun, it is not a sim, and besides it was optional to use - an option that no longer exists. As the great Warren Spector said while speaking about game design in the original Deus Ex, "I've always said that we wanted to make a realistic game but any time reality gets in the way of fun, reality loses." That's the way it should always be. I too am continuously bemused at how later titles in PC game franchises have less in-game options than their predecessors. The R6 and GR/GRAW franchises have both suffered massively from this phenomenon. I realise that it has a lot to do with the shift towards console-centric development in the gaming industry but still, it sucks, and it makes no real sense to me. (btw my comments are not intended as a knock on Grin in any way, just a general comment.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleArd Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 The enemy AI (in coop) seem to have a small period of invincibility. If you drop them from a distance with small arms fire and they start to get up there's just a fraction too long before your next rounds get registered on them so they can almost get to their feet before you can damage them again. I've also noticed on a few occasions that you can't shoot some AI behind objects like fences at times until they can actually see you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoGRIN Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 The enemy AI (in coop) seem to have a small period of invincibility. If you drop them from a distance with small arms fire and they start to get up there's just a fraction too long before your next rounds get registered on them so they can almost get to their feet before you can damage them again. I've also noticed on a few occasions that you can't shoot some AI behind objects like fences at times until they can actually see you. No it is not written like that. The fence can take some bullets though as it is semi solid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleArd Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 The enemy AI (in coop) seem to have a small period of invincibility. If you drop them from a distance with small arms fire and they start to get up there's just a fraction too long before your next rounds get registered on them so they can almost get to their feet before you can damage them again. I've also noticed on a few occasions that you can't shoot some AI behind objects like fences at times until they can actually see you. No it is not written like that. The fence can take some bullets though as it is semi solid... I'm sure it's not meant to be like that, but there definitely seems a short period when you can't harm them, it's nothing to do with lag either as I've just been practising on my LAN server I know what you're saying about fences etc. being quite tough, but you can shoot them through it when they see you. I fired at least 20 rounds at an enemy with no effect until I moved out and he saw me, then the same rounds in the same place took him out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAbbi_74 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 In GRAW2 you can control their movement by giving individual orders - through their head camera (Buddy Camera - press G) I think you will like it as it is a good merge of Realism and Gameplay Bo Good step, Bo! I'm sure it will be quite helpful (haven't received my copy of the demo just yet). And I read that the AI has improved some, which is also sure to help. But let's not forget that AI was one of the BIG issues that we had with GRAW. They don't do what they're told. They get hung up on VERY small/easy obstacles. They take roundabout, senseless (and darned sure not tactical) routes unless very specifically micromanaged. Again, I haven't had any experience at all personally with the GRAW2 AI, but the GRAW AI were a disaster. Sorry. And what Peace is talking about gave players the ability to ensure, beyond the shadow of any reasonable doubt, that your team was doing precisely what you intended for them to do. There is NOTHING more frustrating that having all that hard work BLOWN by a friendly AI who loses his head and does something unimaginably stupid, or fails to act upon order. And that frustration, as I'm sure is recognized by the entire development team, significantly impacts the enjoyment of the single-player game. We had a solution in a 2001 release game that worked well. I hope that between teh improvements to the AI themselves and the buddy-cam orders system you've managed to mitigate the AI problems from GRAW. I can't wait to get the demo in my hands. And I'm glad GRIN is still on-board... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Hmmm... The Eurogamer reviewer wasn't overly excited about the AI in GRAW 2: "...being followed around by three shop dummies wired up to dog brains" "Enemies aren't much better...they wait where the game spawns them, created alternately as either hawkeyed sharpshooters or villains from a Bruce Lee movie, running into the path of your fire one by one". "The net effect of the blatantly robotic AI on both sides is that GRAW 2 feels at all times like a simulation of war, not war itself...Everything hinges on how you set up the combat, rather than the combat itself, which is somewhat perfunctory." I think the reviewer indirectly shows why optional soul switching in SP is a crucial part of a tactical FPS shooter in order to allow full control of the friendly AI and take a more active role in the gameplay. With soul switching, you may then accurately plan and execute the action yourself using all team members, making it a more intense FPS game, while those who like being in one and the same body letting the AI do the vast majority of the job, can still do so. Note, the reviewer still gives it 7/10, despite the bashing of the AI (which may or may not be accurate) If UBI/GRIN had implemented optional soul switching for SP, as the Original GR had, I bet it would have been a 9/10. Restricting the SP gameplay to a hero character game is probably not good for the game, reviews, or the business. Full review here: http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=79967 PS No, I haven't tried the game myself yet (I just found the review interesting because it was relevant for the thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockeystick Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 He only mentioned the AI and how he prefers "heart pounding" Doom gameplay front of realism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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