Why GRIN and UBI got it all wrong....

[Vox*BDA*]

Hi guys...

This is somthing I posted on the 1.30 forum but I felt it needed more attention. It is basically my view on the faults of concept design that have annoyed me, rather than the actual technical faults of the code. (Even if there is way too much of them!) If we could focus this discussion and have a cohesive list that GR.net could present GRIN/UBI, I think we could see an INCREDIBLE GR4!!!!!!!!! BUT THIS HAS TO START NOW!!!! AS THEY WILL BE STARTING GROUND WORK EVEN AS WE SPEAK.. WE NEED TO STEER THEM IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

CONCERNING TECHNICAL ###### OF 1.30 PATCH:

I hate to be a drag...but here goes.

I did a clean re=install with 1.3 patch and am having crashes when i never used to have crashes.

1} BUG with other team members in single player.They get stuck in places when i tell them to follow me.ie. they bunch together and stop in a corner.Wierd i know

2}Crash when connecting to servers, i never had that before, and crahes while in siege mode.

3}New modes are good but hardly premimum content....A.I is harder, not nessecarily better trained if u know what i mean.Siege mode and [GR] coop are exactly that....TAKEN FROM PREVIOUS GAME....

CONCERNING CONCEPT/PLAYABILITY FAULTS:

4}I LOVE the origianl ghost recon. And while I never got to play Ghost recon 2 BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T RELEASE IT FOR PC - THIS IS GR3...i say again 3. So why didn't ALL the modes of the original come with GR3 and where are the SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF OTHER NEW MODES excluding the obvious. Both SINGLE and MULTI -PLAYER has been let down BADLY by ALL the people involved with the making and relaease of this game.

5}Modding support has come, but at a price....3 D Studio Max is needed,and not just that it has to be the older version. Therefore it is HIGHLY likely that all 3D editing of this game will be done on PIRATE software. Where is the sense in that from a publisher that CREATED A BUG BY BEING SO INTENT ON COPY PROTECTION.

6}They have not struck a good balance between DYING LIKE ITS A HILL PUSH IN KOREA and HAVING FUN LIKES IT's 1999...... THIS IS NOT A REALISISTIC MILITARY SIMULATOR...NOR SHOULD IT BE....BUT THEY INSIST IN GIVING US THE LEAST ENTERTAINING ASPECTS OF WAR REALISM WHICH IS RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF DEAD BODIES ON OUR SIDE.

7}While visually stunning . this game sometimes can get a bit choppy on my machine.

2.4Ghz AMD

2 gig (best they make)

ASUS SLI board DELUX

400GB hard drive on two 10,000 rpm drives

7900GTS POINT OF VIEW

NEED I SAY MORE? with a setup that is more than adeqate, HOW IN THE HELL do they expect us to play it to it's maximum effect?

Futhermore, I have a ACER latop.IT IS A BEAST OF A MACHINE for the price I paid for.I play Operation Flashpoint on FULL with it At 2Km draw distance.

1.6GHZ Pentium "M"

2ghz ram

9700 Mobility Raedon with ATI tray tools

I.E the bottom of the cards supported by GRAW.

IT AVERAGES 20FPS - AND LOOKS TERRIBLE....BASICALLY UNPLAYABLE.

So my point is - what are they playing at with an incredable engine that no one can see ??

8}THEY ARE PLAYING CATCH UP WITH THE COMMUNITY THAT KNEW GR1.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE AND THEY HAVE DONE US A DIS-SERVICE.

GRAW does not have the special forces FEEL that GR1 had. The narrative lacked belief and cohesion, and the main charactor WAS NOT FULLY DEVELOPED IN ANY WAY TO MAKE HIM A REAL CHARACTOR IN A FICTIONAL STORY. THIS IS THE BASIS OF GOOD WRITING AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE IGNORED IT.

Ghost Recon 1 created a real world feel through situational awarness. In GRAW too much of the environment feels contrieved. Many of the shanty buildings would be usless in real world situations. Who lives there? Where are their Colthes/Dishes/etc? Where are the CIVILIANS? If this is a city where is everone? I don't think I am nit picking here. The best parts of the First game have been left out.

9}*.I have stopped playing GRAW and sold my gear because of work and moving. I was working on a mod called SFOD-D. HOWEVER , SINCE ARMED ASSAULT IS OUT SOON, AND THAT THERE WILL BE MORE SUPPORT FOR IT, I HAS CHOSEN TO RESUME THIS MOD FOR ARMED ASSAULT. IN OTHER WORDS , WHY BOTHER MODDING A GAME THAT HAS BUGS TO BEGIN WITH, IS VERY COMPLEX, IS MADE WITH EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE, AND WHICH WILL PROBABLY NOT BE A CLASSIC AND AS SUCH A YEAR FROM NOW NO ONE WILL PLAY. PEOPLE STILL PLAY OPERATION FLASHPOINT EVERYDAY AND ITS 5 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10}MAN DID I JUST VENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but as I typed all the problems in GRAW really ###### ME OFF. I'm sorry to be NEGATIVE as I was INTIALLY VERY POSITIVE TOWARDS GRIN. But I see big problems with what they have done with this game franchise. I guess there will be a patch for the 1.30 patch, as I have seen similar Crash complaints on GHOSTRECON.NET.

But really a VIDEO GAME IS A PIECE OF ART. It exists as such only when PLAYED AND ENJOYED. GRIN HAVE MADE BAD ART AS I NOW CANNOT ENJOY IT.

ITS LIKE A PAINTING U BUY UNFINSHED , AND WHEN IT IS FINISHED U REALISE U DONT LIKE THE WAY IT LOOKS SO U BUY ANOTHER ONE..NAMELY ARMED ASSAULT!!

I hope you all understand that i am just a little annoyed right now and think someone should speak the reality of the situation.

PS : some gret features of GRAW: sliding to corners, peeking, fast pace, explosions, ALL visual effects, Moddleing and Textures of everything!

BUT THERE ARE TOO MANY THINGS THAT DISTRCT ME FROM THE BEAUTY OF THIS GAME.

THEY COULDA LEARNED A LOT FROM MAX PAYNE, AND INTRODUCED AN EXCELLANT STORYLINE.

They coulda had much more equipment and gadgets. Stuff from Splinter Cell and the like.

It's been said already....saving was too far apart...

Cross COm could have been used MUltiplayer to much greater effect...Cross Com was supposed to sell this game...

The $50 dollars doesn't annoy me. It's the fact that if I dry lined your house...I wouldn't give you the plasterboard 3 months after you paid me. And then ask you to put it up.

AGAIN I apologise for the negative waves (!), but I do feel strongly about this. I do not mean to offend anyone, sry if I did. (That includes GRIN too!!lol) ....

[RAbbi_74]

Thanks for at least giving BOTH sides of your story here (as in, the couple of positive remarks about the game as well). I can't see how that could be taken badly...

Good luck with BF3 (erm, I mean Armed Assault... )...

[Bonehead]

Good luck with BF3 (erm, I mean Armed Assault... )...

ROFL!! Classic

[Fonzarelli TAW]

On a Geforce 6600GT, I play Operation Flashpoint FULL with a 4000m draw distance!

[RAbbi_74]

LOL with 2x GeForce 6800GT on SLi, [GR] is like a whole new game! BF2 actually looks like they put some effort into graphics after all (I know, bite my tongue). Splinter Cell:Chaos Theory AI's look almost like real people.

But is it worth the money? The vote is still out. It DID do wonders for GRAW though...

[Lightspeed]

Good luck with BF3 (erm, I mean Armed Assault... )...

After GR2 and :AW, I can understand your pessimism, lets just hope it IS what we hope it is.

Good Post Vox, c u in ArmA or [GR].

Good point about the New video cards giving [GR] a nice lift, its making [GR] even more enjoyable then before.

I'd actually like to see some GRIN crew at Alpha Servers playing some [GR] with us, they would love it, and they'd be most welcome Im sure.

(After all is said and done, I still like the GRIN crew, they do seem like nice guys)

Edited September 14, 2006 by PoW_LigHtsPeEd

[mordred]

i'll take my chances for ArmA they are way bigger than GRAW has ever given me.

And if u think its gonna be bf3, than dont play it, keep playing a 'dead man walking' than, i dont mind.

And for the info: a double setup of 6800gt doesnt mean anything it doesnt even beat a 7900gt card. Or you shoul dbe talking about another SLI setup for graw.

Im running 7900gtx 512mb, 4400x2,2gig on a res of 1680x1050 and gameplay is 'kinda' fluid, but not all the time...........go wonder, you cant make people buy 1000€ on gpus!!! to play a game that costs 50€ and turns out to be total crap.

Man i'd give alot for that 'gr1 feel' -outta-box .

-M-

Edited September 14, 2006 by mordred

[Brettzies]

You make a lot of great points Vox(and others). Good to see it written down so passionately, I know a lot of people feel the same way who've played [GR]. Means many different things to many differnt peole and even for completely different reasons.

Unfortunatley, it's hard to see GRAW PC as a sequel. It's just an adaptation for PC of a x360 conecpt which was a sequel to GR2 which was what GR became after it left the PC. That gap is what killed it, because essentially they are starting over. Sure they can look at the old game and talk to designers and what not, but the essence is missing. It's hard to get back to the original concept when that gap exists and a whole new team is brought in to make the game. I think "greatness" gets lost, especially in a sequel, when someone is working off of someone else's concept.

However, I have a difficult time blaming GRIN for anything. I think they made the best out of what they were given to work with. Problems, of course, though I will say they did a great job of taking the x360 concept and transfering it to something PC people would like. But that's part of the problem to begin with. No matter how good they made it, it's still steeped in the overall production of the 360 game and they're trying to retro fit parts for the PC audience.

Yes, it is its own game in many ways, and that's great. Lots of great things about it, but it's still a four man squad with "Mitchell" at the helm, canned dialogue, scripted plot events, etc. Multiplayer and modding is a whole 'nother issue, but when the entire concept and essence of the game is based off another version(the x360), you're bound to have problems.

I really don't like this cross-plaform game designing. If they're going to do it, just make it identical on each one. What's better though, would be to make a completely different game in name and CONCEPT for the PC. I'm talking a totally different game, maybe not even released in the same year. It can still be a GR game, just have nothing to do with whatever the console version is. You know we don't want that anyway. I really do think the whole GRAW x360 genesis limited many things in the way the PC version evolved. Just look at the basic concept, a 4 man team where no one gets killed(they reappear in the next mission). Everything stems from there.

That's why GRAW is so far from [GR] in my opinion. I don't blame GRIN for that though, as I think they produced a good game, just missed some of the really great things about [GR] which is kind of understandable since they weren't even the original designers. If anything, I'd say UBI is to "blame" for why we never saw a true sequel to [GR]. And to be quite frank, I'm really disappointed that Red Storm put most if not all of it's efforts into the xbox and its succesor. They were the genius behind GR and R6, and it seems they sold out for the console road and audience. I understand it's a business, but it's still sad to see what's happened since the [Ghost Recon] was released.

<XBoxMode>TRUE</XBoxMode>

[Kurtz]

Is Armed Assault still going to limited to 2 man coop? Bad decision.

[Papa6]

not to get off topic but to generalize, why the hell do game development companies ALWAYS screw up big titles?

it would be logical for me to keep a title and it's content the same but just advance the graphics and add maybe more content.

I think on the other hand and I'll use RSE as an example is that RSE's team that developed ghost recon left the company and the new team comes in changing things trying to be a hero and make a name for themselves always jack games up because they take a perfectly good title and want to add thier own twist [GR]->GRAW and it loses it's fanbase. the people who like GRAW seem by appearances to be a new crowd.

us old GR guys/gals are left hanging because GRAW is trying to reach back and get [GR] into GRAW. So it would appear to [GR] fans that GRAW is a lesser version of the GR2 scenario in just that GRAW materialized. so for an old GR fan like myself I still haven't gotten what I wanted.

[}PW{ Postal]

Well, from my understanding. Grin had to make the game simular to Graw 360 so if thats the case....RSE had the lead on this and Grin had to make things work for the PC version. Seems to me that you guys should be pointing fingers at RSE...hehehe but i dont know what im talking about so just ignore me...lol

[ROCO*AFZ*]

not to get off topic but to generalize, why the hell do game development companies ALWAYS screw up big titles?

it would be logical for me to keep a title and it's content the same but just advance the graphics and add maybe more content.

I think on the other hand and I'll use RSE as an example is that RSE's team that developed ghost recon left the company and the new team comes in changing things trying to be a hero and make a name for themselves always jack games up because they take a perfectly good title and want to add thier own twist [GR]->GRAW and it loses it's fanbase. the people who like GRAW seem by appearances to be a new crowd.

us old GR guys/gals are left hanging because GRAW is trying to reach back and get [GR] into GRAW. So it would appear to [GR] fans that GRAW is a lesser version of the GR2 scenario in just that GRAW materialized. so for an old GR fan like myself I still haven't gotten what I wanted.

New crowd? I'm as old as dirt in GR1 years.. (since the demo)

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

[Dai-San]

not to get off topic but to generalize, why the hell do game development companies ALWAYS screw up big titles?

it would be logical for me to keep a title and it's content the same but just advance the graphics and add maybe more content.

I think on the other hand and I'll use RSE as an example is that RSE's team that developed ghost recon left the company and the new team comes in changing things trying to be a hero and make a name for themselves always jack games up because they take a perfectly good title and want to add thier own twist [GR]->GRAW and it loses it's fanbase. the people who like GRAW seem by appearances to be a new crowd.

us old GR guys/gals are left hanging because GRAW is trying to reach back and get [GR] into GRAW. So it would appear to [GR] fans that GRAW is a lesser version of the GR2 scenario in just that GRAW materialized. so for an old GR fan like myself I still haven't gotten what I wanted.

New crowd? I'm as old as dirt in GR1 years.. (since the demo)

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

I agree with you 100% ROCOAFZ.

The unfortunate thing is that it is the Old time Co-op players that have kept the GR franchise alive for 5 years. The TvT and TDM side died a while ago in GR but the Co-op was still keeping the name alive yet it's us that got shafted

[zulater]

New crowd? I'm as old as dirt in GR1 years.. (since the demo)

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

You're joking right?

How many rumble teams are around in GRAW? CDN and CGI maybe AOD (don't think they were AOD at the time) out of more than 50 teams.

Searching for link to the rumble ladder (coming soon)

[AODCruiser]

New crowd? I'm as old as dirt in GR1 years.. (since the demo)

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

You're joking right?

How many rumble teams are around in GRAW? CDN and CGI maybe AOD (don't think they were AOD at the time) out of more than 50 teams.

Searching for link to the rumble ladder (coming soon)

AOD gose way back we were on the rumble back around 2003

and there was fragpin an squad games and yes AOD HAS been around along time

[zulater]

New crowd? I'm as old as dirt in GR1 years.. (since the demo)

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

You're joking right?

How many rumble teams are around in GRAW? CDN and CGI maybe AOD (don't think they were AOD at the time) out of more than 50 teams.

Searching for link to the rumble ladder (coming soon)

AOD gose way back we were on the rumble back around 2003

and there was fragpin an squad games and yes AOD HAS been around along time

I always got you guys confused with VOD back in the day.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

New crowd? I'm as old as dirt in GR1 years.. (since the demo)

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

You're joking right?

How many rumble teams are around in GRAW? CDN and CGI maybe AOD (don't think they were AOD at the time) out of more than 50 teams.

Searching for link to the rumble ladder (coming soon)

AOD gose way back we were on the rumble back around 2003

and there was fragpin an squad games and yes AOD HAS been around along time

I always got you guys confused with VOD back in the day.

I didn't say they all played in the rumble. What i mean in one's that matched.

GSTA is still around, PW (was PF), i have seen some BSR and xcal's. Btw we were (AFZ) in the rumble near the middle/end.

I also see Winx (or however there name is) RS, Core, 30+ ...want me to keep going?

Just because there not matching at the moment doesn't mean there players aren't enjoying /playing it.

Old timers doesn mean Rumble Zul... how many times do i have to beat that in your heads over at TCZ LOL!!!

Edited September 14, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[KRP 56]

so for an old GR fan like myself I still haven't gotten what I wanted.

Same here. As a matter of fact,not even close to what it should have been. As GR is still going strong with 5 + years under it's belt I can't even picture GRAW (as it stands now) holding anyones attention a couple of years from now.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

so for an old GR fan like myself I still haven't gotten what I wanted.

Same here. As a matter of fact,not even close to what it should have been. As GR is still going strong with 5 + years under it's belt I can't even picture GRAW (as it stands now) holding anyones attention a couple of years from now.

Gr1 would not have if not for the expansions also

every year or so release an expansion and GRAW is golden also.

[zulater]

New crowd? I'm as old as dirt in GR1 years.. (since the demo)

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

You're joking right?

How many rumble teams are around in GRAW? CDN and CGI maybe AOD (don't think they were AOD at the time) out of more than 50 teams.

Searching for link to the rumble ladder (coming soon)

AOD gose way back we were on the rumble back around 2003

and there was fragpin an squad games and yes AOD HAS been around along time

I always got you guys confused with VOD back in the day.

I didn't say they all played in the rumble. What i mean in one's that matched.

GSTA is still around, PW (was PF), i have seen some BSR and xcal's. Btw we were (AFZ) in the rumble near the middle/end.

I also see Winx (or however there name is) RS, Core, 30+ ...want me to keep going?

Just because there not matching at the moment doesn't mean there players aren't enjoying /playing it.

Old timers doesn mean Rumble Zul... how many times do i have to beat that in your heads over at TCZ LOL!!!

You name all these teams with a few players playing. how many of them are matching?

I know BSR isn't, xcal doesn't exist they split and most joined RAV which used to be S&D and they aren't matching. I know RS isn't, GSTA isn't, PW/PF isn't, 30+ isn't. want me to go on?

[Peace]

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

I'll have to disagree Roco, Zulater is correct, Unfortunately I'd say >50% of [GR] t vs t players don't play/don't like GRAW because of various reasons.

The collapse in the European no respawn community has been total, and in US there are still only ladders with a handful of teams... The # players online tells it all.

Perhaps the [GR] coop'ers struggle more, but even most [GR] adversarial players did not have the patience to wait for the game to be patched up. I'm not sure what to do to bring 'em back, because the game is fun (even though the unfortunate t vs t limitations and limited options compared with [GR]...)

Also the expansions for [GR] came quickly...after 4 and 10 months respectively. UBI hasn't even announced a 1st expansion after 4.5 months of GRAW's life...soon it will be too late?

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Currently those who like it are the one's that like TDM and team vs team games.

Those that don't are old timer co-opers.

I'll have to disagree Roco, Zulater is correct, Unfortunately I'd say >50% of [GR] t vs t players don't play/don't like GRAW because of various reasons.

The collapse in the European no respawn community has been total, and in US there are still only ladders with a handful of teams... The # players online tells it all.

Perhaps the [GR] coop'ers struggle more, but even most [GR] adversarial players did not have the patience to wait for the game to be patched up. I'm not sure what to do to bring 'em back, because the game is fun (even though the unfortunate t vs t limitations and limited options compared with [GR]...)

Also the expansions for [GR] came quickly...after 4 and 10 months respectively. UBI hasn't even announced a 1st expansion after 4.5 months of GRAW's life...soon it will be too late?

But... out of the ones that are playing... TVT players are the least complaining. The rest have moved on either temporary (i say this as most i have spoken to don't like the games they moved to) or have players still testing it.

The matches haven't taken off due to disconnects and other things that would effect it. Not as much because of gameplay (once TVT came out). I don't see any of the old Co-op only GR1 squads playing (even with limited members) and a lot of the older clans have representatives that are (although as stated not the entire clan playing)

Edited September 14, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[Vox*BDA*]

I think we're all on the same wave length here.

And I don't blame GRIN for anything. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that GRAW should have been a seperate project, connected to [GR], but not a sequel per say.

Still you have to see it fom my point of view. This may sound pathetic so bear with me. One of the reasons I spent cica 2000 euro's on a computer was because there were a number of titles I was excited about getting involved in. I don't really recreationally buy loads of games and play them a bit. I buy a few titles and play them religously with my friends. I also like to modify them. So when one of those titles was a Ghost Recon sequel.......well that really encourage my wallet to shut up and let me do some spending!!

Now circumstances have changed. ...(I miss sometimes 7900GTX!!) But I can still play flashpoint with my brother and buddies, just not on stupid high.(lol) And to be honest while GRAW is a real looker, I only really miss DOM mode and the FX. Contrast to the fact that I have completed all the campagns in [GR] and Flashpoint...um...i dunno....MANY MANY MANY times LOL!! Because they're still fun to play!

The minute I had single player done in GRAW....I felt like a veteran in need of retirement!!!

I do give full credit to GRIn for creating a unique work that has many excellant features. I just don't think it is in the ethos of [GR]. I mean in [GR] there was no gung - ho element. It had a silent professional air to it. GRAW has a kinda Michell-is-the-man feel to it. And his buddies are just waiting to die for him...

What my problem is, is that I wanted [GR] with GRAW graphics! But alas, that's not to be. The themes I wanted explored from [GR] - weren't. The themes I didn't want to be explored - were!

So that's my two cents in. Discussion is very important or otherwise they will pump out any old ###### onto us.

Tha'ts for all the responses,and for the record, I AM NOT AN OLD CRANKY #####!!LOL!!...........................(well maybe just a little cranky)......

[-|-aMMo-|-]

They probably arent complaining because the ones left are the fanbois and the people who didnt play [GR].

The rest got tired of complaining and left.

[}PW{ Postal]

The rest got tired of complaining and left.

Man i wish this was true!