WhiteKnight77 Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Is it possible for this forum to produce ideas that would be incorporated into a future release of some kind? If the answer is yes then there is a lot of work we can start on now. The problem is we on this forum have posted what we would like to see in game not once, not twice, but at least 3 times if not more on what we would like to see incorperated into the series, yet, there are many features that have not made it. Each time we stated we want bigger teams. What did we get, a 4 man teamwith a hero character. Now that is not GRIN's fault, they had orders from Ubi to make the game that way. Is GRIN completely abosolved of the problems of GRAW, no, but they had someone to answer to that called the shots. GRIN actually did try to give us what many of us wanted. Y'all have a weapons view with animations. Could we have done without that if it gave us a bigger team? Probably, but then there would be people complaining that there was no weapon view as they had since Rainbow Six came out (the fact that there was no weapon view was endearing to me really, it was not some fire from the hip view that hundreds of other shooters have). Until gamers quite buying games that do not meet the expectations will publishers realize that they are their biggest enemy when it comes to a game franchise when they change a series from what it was that made it great to begin with. Does that mean I think all the games in the franchise should be just updated graphics and such, no. It means that I think original features should be kept with new features added that actually does progress a franchise and not regress (fewer teammates for one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon_AS Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Roco I appreciate the effort you put into defending GRAW but be real. I agree that it is fun to play but there’s too much wrong with it and it's hard to defend it even when I myself enjoy playing it. I to see it as a different game then GR1 and I wanted that but come on. They had all the multiplayer, single player, and co-op game mode/options everyone wanted just sitting out there from the GR1 experience. Alls they had to do was implement them into GRAW. Whether it be at there release date that they use as an excuse or on one of the patches they've released since. That's all I wanted, not the same game but the same or more options. I mean come on, though I very much appreciate the modders and the maps they make I didn't buy the game to hear from the devs that it's up to the modders to do the rest!!! Maps?? Come on did anyone think that this many maps would make anyone happy? The amount of servers on gheyspy and handful of servers that have a respectable amount of people on it are proof enough. Bo calling people "Trolls" and crap talk from devs like do we have to do everything for you (Hell yes you do you made the game and we paid you not vice versa) or something to that effect assure that I will not be buying another GRIN product unless it gets rave reviews from the online community. Don't take this as a personal attack against you Roco hell I enjoy playing GRAW and I enjoy playing on the AFZ server but all of these things are true. WORD............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haz4rd Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 When I buy a game, Im not interested to do gamedevelopers job and download fixes after fixes. After 30 years of videogames some people should already know what people want and how to do it? I just want to play well made games not create ones, I have my own job already. I dont know anything about computers or coding so I expect gamemakers know better. I dont wanna spend hours seeking answers for my problems and if I found it, its presented a way I cant understand. I quess we are lucky these people are not making our cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAbbi_74 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I quess we are lucky these people are not making our cars? AWESOME ANALOGY in the making there... Anyone remember the Isuzu Imark? Was a crap version of the already-crap GEO Storm. Available, thouigh, with suspension 'tuned' (read: poorly optimized) by Lotus. But was the spirit of Colin Chapman (God Bless THAT man...) in that car? By no means whatsoever... So we get GRAW, which many would argue is the Isuzu Imark of PC games. It may bear the mark of GR, but by no means is the spirit of that game alive here. Nonetheless, though, there was potential in the Imark (for a late '80's compact, the available AWD and turbocharged engine were pretty remarkable) that was just left undeveloped by GM (Ubisoft). the sad part of the analogy is that Isuzu tanked bigtime along with Geo (and some might compare those two to GRiN in my sad attempt at an over-explained analogy)... I, too, should Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blueberry_EBDA Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Come on boys,just say it.Its a TURD nobody plays except me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAbbi_74 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Come on boys,just say it.Its a TURD nobody plays except me. ME TOO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
}PW{ Postal Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 The problem is we on this forum have posted what we would like to see in game not once, not twice, but at least 3 times if not more on what we would like to see incorperated into the series, yet, there are many features that have not made it. Each time we stated we want bigger teams. What did we get, a 4 man teamwith a hero character. Now that is not GRIN's fault, they had orders from Ubi to make the game that way. Is GRIN completely abosolved of the problems of GRAW, no, but they had someone to answer to that called the shots. GRIN actually did try to give us what many of us wanted. Y'all have a weapons view with animations. Could we have done without that if it gave us a bigger team? Probably, but then there would be people complaining that there was no weapon view as they had since Rainbow Six came out (the fact that there was no weapon view was endearing to me really, it was not some fire from the hip view that hundreds of other shooters have). Until gamers quite buying games that do not meet the expectations will publishers realize that they are their biggest enemy when it comes to a game franchise when they change a series from what it was that made it great to begin with. Does that mean I think all the games in the franchise should be just updated graphics and such, no. It means that I think original features should be kept with new features added that actually does progress a franchise and not regress (fewer teammates for one). Well, until we can get a developer that has 100% say in what goes in the game and taking into account that said developer listens to the community, we will never have all that we want. Not buying a game wont matter....we would have to not buy any games cause when UBI does there research its on hundreds of titles not just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) I have about a dozan games here or more that i play. Of all these games, they all have finished MP and SP modes. Almost all either have thier respective editors and mapping tools when they release or, they release one big package with everything a modder needs. With GRAW, they trick·led the mod tools out slowly. So this leaves me to wonder, "Did they purposely do this?" it's apparent to me that they had no intention of making GRAW moddable. I believe i remember a Dev of GRIN who told me that, there was no "initial" plan for making GRAW moddable. So this lends me to believe that after we cajoled(sp?) Grin they gave in. So I'm also under the feeling that, GRAW was to be released "AS-IS" and that was it. I know it wasn't finished, but I'm referring to the content of the game overall. Those of you who enjoy GRAW, I'm happy for you. I'm glad you got your monies worth. but this is a long saga from [GR] ->GRAW which has left a sour taste in our mouths. Alot of us are still waiting for UBISOFT to come through with the game WE know and enjoy. this just isn't what we wanted. I'm basing this comment by listening to the unhappy masses and coming to a small distinct conclusion that the [GR] fans were cut out of the fold in terms of the game. I'd even buy an expansion pack for [GR] today if one were released. This is where i believe that first impressions are lasting ones. If they had screwed it up, that impression would've been a lasting one. I think this is why people who are [GR] fans are not impressed with GRAW. Added: I had another thought come to mind, it has been said that GRAW wasn't supposed to be like [GR]. It is supposed to be a different game all it's own. with that being said, then why was the game even given the GR moniker? It's not GR in any sense. this is what happens when a big corporation buys rights to a name. I'll try and be an optimist but, with UBISOFT's track record in ruining franchise games, GR4 might just as well become a game GRAW fans hate. I'm seeing a pattern here.... Edited September 16, 2006 by Papa6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiGiTALY -TC- Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I don't think it's a secret GRAW wasn't born to be moddable.. the gr.net community made it moddable with a great support from Grin..this is a perfect example of something the community wanted, ubi didn't planned, devs helped to achieve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I don't think it's a secret GRAW wasn't born to be moddable.. the gr.net community made it moddable with a great support from Grin..this is a perfect example of something the community wanted, ubi didn't planned, devs helped to achieve Then if what you are saying is true, then what kind of success was GRAW supposed to be? most successful games have GREAT mod tools. but if GRAW wasn't meant to be a moddable game, then we can't expect too much of GRAW in terms of mod tools. what evidence do I have? I don't see Harntrox, El OSO or any of those guys around here anymore. these two are just off the tip of my mind of the hundreds there were with [GR]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteKnight77 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Harntrox is still around. Expect good things from him, even if it is not GR or GRAW. Well, until we can get a developer that has 100% say in what goes in the game and taking into account that said developer listens to the community, we will never have all that we want. Not buying a game wont matter....we would have to not buy any games cause when UBI does there research its on hundreds of titles not just one. You are right, Ubi does research, but do they do the proper research? If people do not buy a game, they lose money and we all know Ubi wants to make money. Funny thing is, we may all quit buying Ubi games in the future as someone else will come along and take their place. Who will get the last laugh then? Remember, Ubi bought RSE to help fill a blank spot in their arsenol of games. RSE provided them with a niche that no other company had and they have reduced said market to average shooter fare. Someone is poised to take those who are upset with Ubi's direction and make the gamers theirs instead of Ubi's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay316 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 well said WhiteKnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Harntrox is still around. Expect good things from him, even if it is not GR or GRAW. Well, until we can get a developer that has 100% say in what goes in the game and taking into account that said developer listens to the community, we will never have all that we want. Not buying a game wont matter....we would have to not buy any games cause when UBI does there research its on hundreds of titles not just one. You are right, Ubi does research, but do they do the proper research? If people do not buy a game, they lose money and we all know Ubi wants to make money. Funny thing is, we may all quit buying Ubi games in the future as someone else will come along and take their place. Who will get the last laugh then? Remember, Ubi bought RSE to help fill a blank spot in their arsenol of games. RSE provided them with a niche that no other company had and they have reduced said market to average shooter fare. Someone is poised to take those who are upset with Ubi's direction and make the gamers theirs instead of Ubi's. He's absolutely correct. If Ubi drop the ball, we have to go somewhere. It's a shame that RSE got bought up. on another note, I'm kinda sure that's why the team that made [GR] left when they did. I reckon they saw what was happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteKnight77 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Not everyone that helped make GR has left. Matter of fact, I only know of one that has left. The others now work on the console material. Last time RSE tried to make a PC game, well, we all know what happened, we got a port. But I don't believe that it in and of itself is RSE's fault, they were told by Ubi to do so. Still, I have to wonder how many at RSE from the old guard feel comfortable with the direction their award winning work has taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Here's UBISOFT...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRP 56 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Still, I have to wonder how many at RSE from the old guard feel comfortable with the direction their award winning work has taken. Would be nice to know that but UBI's axe would take a swing at some necks if they said UBI ruined the whole concept behind the R6/GR franchise. With the original R6/GR games I see something that was developed with a passion to create a great set of games that had all kinds of possibilities concerning gameplay. Now it looks like UBI tells them to crank out cool looking and sounding games that will hold a gamers attention long enough till we can crank out another one. What happened to the great gameplay these franchise's were known for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 i think we are all down and broke with the ubi road, but think of this, ubi has an idea of profit, and we are just a small group of fans if they give in to our wantings, then the game would be unaccessable for the simple shoot 'm up gamer like [GR] was ubi has their sights set for the main stream market not the dedicated gamer group of elitists here that have specific demands that do not appeal to the general public and to their profit be happy the game still fits most of us cause it could have been worse....(gr:source, bf-gr, unreal ghosts etc.) i think the time of real good games is fading no publisher will make a big game just for fans, it has to sell, it has to be kinda easy arcady and simple, cause most want a simple easy access game there is where the money is, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) I think he's right in that great games are almost non existent. I wonder if RSE would be able to pull off the great game GR was without the huge gorrilla that is UBISOFT that's on thier backs? the conveyor belt of UBISOFT capitalism will continue to roll out complete rubbish and yet continue to rake in mass quantities of dough. Allow me to explain.. when we bought GRAW in the US for $50/ copy, that money was secured for Ubisoft. they had the money already in thier dirty rotten beaters. the only recourse for the gamer if not satisfied with GRAW was to sell GRAW back to say gamestop for a huge loss. I might've had the opportunity early on to lessen the loss to say $30 taking a loss of $20 since you don't get your money back completely. Most cases you get an in store credit. now where Sui317's logic comes in is, as people harp about an expansion pack for a pretty much dead game of GRAW, we find out from reliable sources that GR4 is already over the horizon set for release early next year. so what use is it to buy an expansion pack when the next iteration of GR will release before an expansion pack(if any) for GRAW materializes? So Sui317 seems right on as that conveyor belt of UBISOFT capitalism ever churning and pumping out mass crap-tastic titles using the Tom clancy name. If you ask me, If I were Tom clancy, I WOULD sue back the rights for ruining my reputation on having my good name drug through the dirt for the sake of mass produced crap titles Edited September 16, 2006 by Papa6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 thanks for seeing my logic, but on another less dark side i do see hope, ubi did cancel gr2, for us (and their own rep.) they gave us grin, helpfull and fairly open dev team that are a true blessing for us in their support and side comments now ubi gave grin the grim task of making gr3 for us (check dvd logo when in the drive) when gr4 comes, it is only because gr3 sold good, and ubi was satisfied with their market share and production lets say grin does gr4, then it will be diesel, and i will not complain about this engine, it will be dx10, gr3 is only the short stop because the dx9.03c is an old thing, they knew that in and during production, so logic makes that this diesel needs an upgrade but had to be sold first to prove its worth guess its worth the gamble for ubi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAbbi_74 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Funny, I was just over at BestBuy a few minutes ago and saw GRAW on the shelf for $29.99. Allow me to put that into perspective: both FEAR and HL2 (w/CS:S) were still selling for $39.99. That is to say that the newer, more gee-whizz game sold for $10 less per copy, or about 25% less. There were still a lot of GRAW's on the shelf too. As for the X360 GRAW, I wouldn't know. I only hung around there long enough to bia-slap the two 12-y/o kids playing it, then left my package of C4 explosives and range-walked out of there. (with the new Slayer ablum in-hand, which so far sucks...) Can't ANYONE get ANYTHING right these days? WAIT! I have an idea! There are enough talented folks around here, let's start RockySoft! We'll get it right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Rabbi74 with the new Slayer ablum in-hand, which so far sucks.. An ubisoft title? I don't mean to berrate , ###### or moan but thats' what it seems to be. basically at first when GRAW released, HDR looked cool. but that died fast didn't it? people were teaching how to shut that ###### off with the render_settings.xml editing. I don't see much length in the life of GRAW anyway with GR4 coming at a farts distance. I don't think a Demo will satisfy the curiosity of most but I'm not most. But i think GR4's sales may be a hell-uva lot slower considering what GRAW's was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pz3 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 there isnt enough money too make our own games. We have talent but we dont have enough in the right areas to really make a professional game. all the software per person adds up let alone engine costs are a lot for good quality ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 for what i have seen here the talent might be there, but the will is lacking, BIG TIME with every little hick up and downside, most here go to the wall of blame and point fingers at it or to the fall of whines, and whale all the time about what could have been and there are those who think they own the game, it is a legal copy, not the game nor the rights, ubi makes up the rules for the game and everything we get we can use we should be happy with, but most just hang their heads everyone seems to want to pick up gaming where [GR] left well news flash, new game new starting point, we might get somewhere if the talent and the motivated got their heads together and the whiners become praisers to those who try to make something from this and for this game (ubi, grin and modders) we can not expect grin or ubi to produce our wishes, we can not expect modders to be fast learners but we can support them and help them get further on the road we can all enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteKnight77 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 *cough* Create Your Own Game?, Would You? *cough* What is discussed in this thread would be a good way to be able to develop your own game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 the reason we hang our heads is because [GR] hit a level of detail playability and just all around greatness. But if Devs were like Viagra, we wouldn't have enough to rise to the occasion. It's one thing to make and game and say there! and it's another to have a game take gaming to new standards and successors can't keep the game at that level or get to that level. It seems that GR has run out of gas and is rolling back down hill. But it takes UBISOFT to realise this, and then act on that. Go to RSE and say, "ok guys, we want to bring back GR to the GR franchise...RSE you are the ones who can pull this off." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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