What makes a shooter tactical?

[spm1138]

Conefire is just a terrrrible solution.

Model what the gun is actually doing. Where the muzzle is pointing, the bullet should go. The muzzle should point where it should point. Conefire gives you too good a chance of scoring a hit around the centre of the crosshair for my money. The bullet should also do what it is supposed to be doing. Why do the guns have to be "balanced"? :|

Breathing systems a la AA and Infiltration are also good bets because then it takes a moment to set up an accurate shot at range from a sprint or a jog whilst not making it too problematic to shoot quickly at close range. Sight alignment worked fairly well for that and gave you a real choice between scopes and reflex sights.

From what I have seen, players learn what works. If they're running and gunning it's because they are used to games that let you do that. There's no reason why that stuff should be the way it works. Why not give them a different challenge to learn?

Game type design also plays a fairly big part. TDM seems to favour splitting up and progressively clearing the level as quickly as possible (on a public server anyway) :|

Edited February 3, 2007 by spm1138

[Hatchetforce]

Accuracy should be what it is. Some accuracy will be inherent. Remember, in the game I am discussing, the player is an experienced SOF operator. Green AI Team mates fresh out of the course will not be as good as AI Team mates with experience. Why? because that's the way it really works.

I agree absolutely with the modeling of physical exertion on what the player experiences. It is one of the reasons physical fitness is so important as is stress shooting.

Another thing is transitions. We spend an inordinate amount of time on the range doing transitions. Except for particular drills, you find a good many of your long gun drills followed by pulling and engaging with a sidearm.

Ouside of the odd mission and very rare instance, the pistol serves one purpose. To kill or supress an enemy until you can get into a position to get your main weapon back up, whether this is by clearing a jam - I have never had an M4 jam - or reloading because I run dry. Most games fail miserably at this feature. There is no one key/button for immediate transition. Instead you find that reloading is just as quick or quicker than pulling a pistol. And that's rubbish. It doesn't do any good to model more than one pistol when the pistol has been emasculated by the mechanics of the game. So there is realism lost, and a great game mechanic untouched. The few titles where transitions do occur, I have seen some memorable moments when either one or both players shooting at each other run dry.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Hatchetforce

[5timechamp]

There is a good chance that you won’t have to pine for the great truly gritty and realistic title you want for much longer. Believe me you will get that ‘tactical’ game you want. Keep you fingers crossed.

hatchetforce is there an approximate date of when to expect an official announcement about the project u speak of??

[jsonedecker]

There is a good chance that you won’t have to pine for the great truly gritty and realistic title you want for much longer. Believe me you will get that ‘tactical’ game you want. Keep you fingers crossed.

hatchetforce is there an approximate date of when to expect an official announcement about the project u speak of??

Nope.

If there was something, not that long, but there isn't anything so I guess it doesn't matter.

[Scubaman3D]

Nope.

If there was something, not that long, but there isn't anything so I guess it doesn't matter.

"What is mind? No matter...what is matter? Never mind."

Homer J. Simpson

Edited February 3, 2007 by Scubaman3D

[Hatchetforce]

John means there is no news to be released at the moment...

[swartsz]

Some games are "shooters" and some games are "tactical shooters." What is the difference?

What are the developers doing or could be doing to favour tactics over run-and-gun?

i have been thinking about this question for a while now and i can not come up with a definite answer.

what makes a game favour tactics over run and gun. for me, one of the most important reasons why i use tactics in a game is because of the way the game makes me feel.

let me explain this briefly. for me bad tactics mean i loose and have to start over a mission or i loose an online match, for people like HatchetForce bad tactics mean that he gets himself or perhaps one of his teammates killed. if a game can simulate that feeling for me, that i have to watch out to bring everyone back alive and can show me how to implement that kind of behaviour, i am inclined to call it a tactical shooter.

hopes this makes any sense.

[CR6]

I was emailed and it was requested I answer this post. I will.

Good to see you back HF. Always enjoy reading your informed and informative posts.

[EasyCo]

John means there is no news to be released at the moment...

Are you working with John on this new game HF?

[BS PALADIN]

Im excited that such a realistic shooter is being planned. I hope you guys stay focused and committed to this ideal and dont compromise later in the games developement. I will be keeping a close eye on this. I hope that you port this game over to the 360 without having to degrade it too much. I have a large userbase who will be dying to get their hands on a 360 version of your propsed game.

[NYR_32]

Thread cleaned. Certain individuals have PM's in bound inaccordance with longstanding site policy.

[Rocky]

Thread cleaned. Certain individuals have PM's in bound inaccordance with longstanding site policy.

NYR what does that mean exactly?

It means we have a policy here that if a member wishes to post as serving military, they are contacted by a staff member to ensure that everything is legit. This is due to an unfortunate history throughout the web of people "posing", and we are no different here and have had more than one poser outted on these forums. In order to avoid such ugly confrontations, we try to get ahead of the game and make sure everyone is legit.

If you wish to discuss this further, contact me by PM.

[Renaissance0321]

Thread cleaned. Certain individuals have PM's in bound inaccordance with longstanding site policy.

NYR what does that mean exactly?

It means we have a policy here that if a member wishes to post as serving military, they are contacted by a staff member to ensure that everything is legit. This is due to an unfortunate history throughout the web of people "posing", and we are no different here and have had more than one poser outted on these forums. In order to avoid such ugly confrontations, we try to get ahead of the game and make sure everyone is legit.

If you wish to discuss this further, contact me by PM.

Ok, I understand.

[Hatchetforce]

John means there is no news to be released at the moment...

Are you working with John on this new game HF?

Let's put it this way, the only thing that is left to be done is for the Staff here to put a Blackfoot tag by my name.

[Hatchetforce]

Some games are "shooters" and some games are "tactical shooters." What is the difference?

What are the developers doing or could be doing to favour tactics over run-and-gun?

i have been thinking about this question for a while now and i can not come up with a definite answer.

what makes a game favour tactics over run and gun. for me, one of the most important reasons why i use tactics in a game is because of the way the game makes me feel.

let me explain this briefly. for me bad tactics mean i loose and have to start over a mission or i loose an online match, for people like HatchetForce bad tactics mean that he gets himself or perhaps one of his teammates killed. if a game can simulate that feeling for me, that i have to watch out to bring everyone back alive and can show me how to implement that kind of behaviour, i am inclined to call it a tactical shooter.

hopes this makes any sense.

Remember the line from some move where one character asks something along the lines of,

"How will I know it's time."

And the second character responds,

"You won't. I'll tell you."

Shooters work in this way. Despite what the box says, or the devs say it is up to the player to discover when a shooter is tactical. The game will tell you.

You will know when you begin to play. As I said earlier it isn't that you survive a single ballsy run and gun moment, it is that you can complete all the mission objectives AND survive (it requires both) and then you'll know the game is not a strict tactical shooter.

A title may possess some elements of tactics that make it easier to beat when you employ proper TTPs, but all the same. You will know.

A real tactical shooter will force you to use tactics in order to achieve mission success. It doesn't mean you won't live if you fail to use tactics although there is a strong possibility you will have to get used to the smell of pine if you don't approach the situation correctly. But you certainly will not win, you won't get the bad guys, you won't get your men home safely, you won't save innocents, and you will discover that violation of the Law of Land Warfare bears with it a heavy price.

Simply put, to beat a real tactical shooter you have to use tactics.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Hatchetforce

[ZJJ]

John means there is no news to be released at the moment...

Are you working with John on this new game HF?

Let's put it this way, the only thing that is left to be done is for the Staff here to put a Blackfoot tag by my name.

That can be accomplished with a word from your boss.

[Raw Kryptonite]

Remember the line from some move where one character asks something along the lines of,

"How will I know it's time."

And the second character responds,

"You won't. I'll tell you."

There are many life lessons to be learned from Roadhouse. Another such, when in the men's room, "don't eat the big white mint".

Wisdom for the ages.

[Hatchetforce]

Remember the line from some move where one character asks something along the lines of,

"How will I know it's time."

And the second character responds,

"You won't. I'll tell you."

There are many life lessons to be learned from Roadhouse. Another such, when in the men's room, "don't eat the big white mint".

Wisdom for the ages.

That's the flick...

[swartsz]

Some games are "shooters" and some games are "tactical shooters." What is the difference?

What are the developers doing or could be doing to favour tactics over run-and-gun?

i have been thinking about this question for a while now and i can not come up with a definite answer.

what makes a game favour tactics over run and gun. for me, one of the most important reasons why i use tactics in a game is because of the way the game makes me feel.

let me explain this briefly. for me bad tactics mean i loose and have to start over a mission or i loose an online match, for people like HatchetForce bad tactics mean that he gets himself or perhaps one of his teammates killed. if a game can simulate that feeling for me, that i have to watch out to bring everyone back alive and can show me how to implement that kind of behaviour, i am inclined to call it a tactical shooter.

hopes this makes any sense.

Remember the line from some move where one character asks something along the lines of,

"How will I know it's time."

And the second character responds,

"You won't. I'll tell you."

Shooters work in this way. Despite what the box says, or the devs say it is up to the player to discover when a shooter is tactical. The game will tell you.

You will know when you begin to play. As I said earlier it isn't that you survive a single ballsy run and gun moment, it is that you can complete all the mission objectives AND survive (it requires both) and then you'll know the game is not a strict tactical shooter.

A title may possess some elements of tactics that make it easier to beat when you employ proper TTPs, but all the same. You will know.

A real tactical shooter will force you to use tactics in order to achieve mission success. It doesn't mean you won't live if you fail to use tactics although there is a strong possibility you will have to get used to the smell of pine if you don't approach the situation correctly. But you certainly will not win, you won't get the bad guys, you won't get your men home safely, you won't save innocents, and you will discover that violation of the Law of Land Warfare bears with it a heavy price.

Simply put, to beat a real tactical shooter you have to use tactics.

that was exactly what i was trying to say, only you have done it a thousand times better than me!

when i typed my previous post, i was thinking about the Embassy map of Rainbow Six and the countless hours i spent trying to come up with a complete plan for me and my teams in order to safely execute the mission without any losses to my teammates or the hostages and the joy it gave me when i finally succeeded. the feeling i had accomplished something and that the countless hours spent running through the mission in my head were not in vain.

[Sup]

The game will tell you.

On the note of what we discussed earlier, that is exactly why I defend such concepts as removing jumping so players know not to bunny hop. Save the pursuit of perfect realism (which I feel is impossible) there's no need to send players mixed messages.

[jsonedecker]

John means there is no news to be released at the moment...

Are you working with John on this new game HF?

Let's put it this way, the only thing that is left to be done is for the Staff here to put a Blackfoot tag by my name.

That can be accomplished with a word from your boss.

Word!

[spm1138]

If HatchetForce is working/consulting on this I am upgrading myself to "Eagerly Awaiting" from plain old "Awaiting".

[Cpl Ledanek]

good to hear HF is back on this board. hope you and your peps are con-us/"stateside."

+ double bonus to hear your in a Blackfoot project.

now about that signed book....

[EasyCo]

John means there is no news to be released at the moment...

Are you working with John on this new game HF?

Let's put it this way, the only thing that is left to be done is for the Staff here to put a Blackfoot tag by my name.

That can be accomplished with a word from your boss.

Word!

This is amazing news! This just keeps getting better.

[FA sear]

The game will tell you.

On the note of what we discussed earlier, that is exactly why I defend such concepts as removing jumping so players know not to bunny hop. Save the pursuit of perfect realism (which I feel is impossible) there's no need to send players mixed messages.

Then do you think OFP did this poorly too? OFP allowed you to run with your gun shouldered, but of course the sight picture was all over the screen so you could barely see anything. Also, you could fire the gun while in a full sprint, but of course the rounds would be all over the map.

To me this was one of the things that I liked about OFP. It simply put you into a situation and let you do pretty much whatever you wanted. Want to try running people over with a jeep? Well, go for it, but unlike Halo someone will eventually tag you with a round, and end your joy ride. OFP had its issues too, but in my opinion it was by far a better game in virtually ever way than GR could ever be. Well, except for graphics.

Good to see you are back HF, and with a new gig too it seems.