Batic Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 (edited) ......if it meant that devs would be paid to continually work on game material and bug fixes and general improvements, toward the maximum potential of the engine and as long as people are willing to pay. This could mean: better modding tools which could mean , snow/rain/forests/more weapons/landscapes/possibly animations/you name it/point being: mainly a huge potential or tweaking EVEN BEYOND paid developers. Continuous engine optimization. Keeping framerate as low as possible (Without making the engine a text based Wheres Faldo) while still adding content. continuously fixing bugs AI improvements more art for artists and modelers etc,etc,etc, Great Googly moogly, heres something i just though of. Having played games for so long and seeing what coders can do for framerate if given enough time: MIGHT IT BE CHEAPER TO PAY A DEV TO OPTIMIZE THE ENGINE, THAN FOR YOU TO UPGRADE YOUR HARDWARE? Operation Flashpoint and Falcon 4.0 among others are great examples of what engine optimization can do. I think we're hitting a wall with things like AI, because they take so much time to develop. Further, i see the same bugs and BAD "features" over and over. Good example: It wasn't until Raven Shield that the Tom Clancy shooter series would save your chat text you were typing in from the debrief screen to the next-mission brief screen in multiplayer(a half-second screen change, which we see in GRAW today). There's no way to save favorite servers in BF2142 (demo). You might have to be connected to the Internet, but I'd do it. They could annually/semi-annually release comprehensive versions to people without the internet connection. Personally, I've been waiting for a real immersive experience, not just another arcade shooter and don't know if that can really happen if the money isn't there. I don't know much about the industry, but if a game comes out in a less-than-standard form, then aren't Ebay and the like flooded with used copies, which people who don't want to pay full price buy? Interesting articles on Gamasutra http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061013/ford_01.shtml (Downtime) http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061020/qotw_01.shtml wow, i spelled a lot of words wrong Edited October 29, 2006 by Batic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kretzj Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 ......if it meant that devs would be paid to continually work on game material and bug fixes and general improvements, toward the maximum potential of the engine and as long as people are willing to pay. This could mean: better modding tools which could mean , snow/rain/forests/more weapons/landscapes/possibly animations/you name it/point being: mainly a huge potential or tweaking EVEN BEYOND paid developers. Continuous engine optimization. Keeping framerate as low as possible (Without making the engine a text based Wheres Faldo) while still adding content. continuously fixing bugs AI improvements more art for artists and modelers etc,etc,etc, Great Googly moogly, heres something i just though of. Having played games for so long and seeing what coders can do for framerate if given enough time: MIGHT IT BE CHEAPER TO PAY A DEV TO OPTIMIZE THE ENGINE, THAN FOR YOU TO UPGRADE YOUR HARDWARE? Operation Flashpoint and Falcon 4.0 among others are great examples of what engine optimization can do. I think we're hitting a wall with things like AI, because they take so much time to develop. Further, i see the same bugs and BAD "features" over and over. Good example: It wasn't until Raven Shield that the Tom Clancy shooter series would save your chat text you were typing in from the debrief screen to the next-mission brief screen in multiplayer(a half-second screen change, which we see in GRAW today). There's no way to save favorite servers in BF2142 (demo). You might have to be connected to the Internet, but I'd do it. They could annually/semi-annually release comprehensive versions to people without the internet connection. Personally, I've been waiting for a real immersive experience, not just another arcade shooter and don't know if that can really happen if the money isn't there. I don't know much about the industry, but if a game comes out in a less-than-standard form, then aren't Ebay and the like flooded with used copies, which people who don't want to pay full price buy? Interesting articles on Gamasutra http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061013/ford_01.shtml (Downtime) http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061020/qotw_01.shtml wow, i spelled a lot of words wrong I'm neutral on the idea (meaning for other games I might consider), but I won't pay for GRAW subscription. Just person feelings. I did that when I paid $50 to be a beta tester earlier this year. -JK Callsign 3Point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineac Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Not a bad idea for those who are buying the game at reduced prices, but I paid full price in advance for the game to be dev'd corectly the first time, and with the number of players running the game today, I have little interest in paying them again. This isn't directed at GRIN or any particular entity, just the process in general. I helped beta test two patches and spent time working with our GSP along with many others to identify the big issues. Some have been addressed, and others not. The biggest issue remains the SADS server requirement that mandates one instance of GRAW per box which ups the cost of a server beyond what is reasonable. Just my two cents, but in all the idea is a good one for those who maintain hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FI_FlimFlam Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 (edited) No because the value just isn't there for me. Look at all you get for MMORPG's with new campaigns and tons of hours of play for it. I dont think I would be in favor of a "pay to play" model for a standard FPS. It just won't work IMO because the value isn't there compared to other subscription services. If I'm going to be paying ~120.00 per year for a subscription I better have alot more to show than a few maps and 3 hours worth of added content. I think episodic content might work but again it better be priced right. I think Valve screwed it customers with HL2 Ep1. For 20.00 I got about 2 hours of play which is pathetic. As far as getting better mod tools goes, I think the majority of people who purchase a game aren't going to have any desire to mod it. You are actually asking for the majority to pay for the tools that only a minority are going to use. That really isn't going to be any kind of incentive for the average gamer to pay for a subscription. Don't get me wrong, my hat goes off to the modders and I'm greatly appreciative of them and mappers but like I said, most people aren't going to benefit from those tools so aren't going to want to pay for them while getting short changed on the gameplay end. Edited October 29, 2006 by FI_FlimFlam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I refuse to buy pay to play games. No compromise on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bota:16 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Well in a sense there is already "pay to play". They are just in the form of expansion packs, that usuall include new weapons, maps, missions, characters, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batic Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) If I'm going to be paying ~120.00 per year for a subscription I better have alot more to show than a few maps and 3 hours worth of added content. That is EXACTLY the idea The thing about highly functional modding tools isn't the use of the tools, its more the content that would be available IF the tools exist. There is a big difference between good and bad modding tools. But the main point is, in the current system, modding is really the only way the maximum player base can reach their ultimate satisfaction with a game. Because devs don't have time to add full on arcade physics/settings for BF2 players while adding full on realistic physics/settings for the realism junkies, and others, like for example, the sneak elements of the "sneak" genre which is become more popular, or vehicle physics, or RPG elements, etc. For example, I always someone would make a HL1 mod where you would have complete believability/realism thus forcing you to sneak in some areas(mainly because i like those Thief games), because your firepower was toned down for realism and you couldn't carry 10 weps, as you wouldn't in real life, thus creating *tension*, and *fear*, for a more immersive experience. But to code the AI "sight", and shadows, and sneakable locations would take effort. Effort like this example won't be available without $$$$. Heres a horrible thought for me. What if publishers think they will go broke if they create really good games? Would they keep pushing out so-so games to keep the money flowing? That is a worry of mine. Bottom line: I'm willing to pay more for games that i REALLY ENJOY, a LOT more. Edited October 30, 2006 by Batic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverReed Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Give Grin MORE money..... after all this....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACTF_ZETT Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 If the game was great, yes I would consider a monthly fee. Fact is, with GRAW, the game is not great, its good. The map situation is pathedic, and apparently their support sucks because they cannot fix a problem without creating new ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCO*AFZ* Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 The game would have to be more of an RPG or something to the wayside of planetside (Huge multiple worlds hosted by them... and of course match local servers) before i would subscribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajun47 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost9 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Two games that come to mind are City of Heros an Villians. They are very popular with only 5 or 6 members of the group I belong to, the other members are like myself and refuse to buy pay to play. The newest game we are looking forward to is Never Winter Nights 2 due for relese very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiles4 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I would think that that business model would only work with MMORPGs and the like. Our purchase price should have been for a working game. If it's not working that GRIN should be fixing it without further monetary incentive from any of us. Further money spent can be for added content in the form of expansion packs. Can you imagine having us subscribed with a monthly fee and then find that GRIN's work was unacceptable as in buggy or non-working? Can you say "riot"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=WO=TekHousE Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 no way! They have had enough of a party with my money already.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyn093 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 No way. 'THEY' should pay 'US' for testing/playing this crap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-|-aMMo-|- Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 uhh lol........... NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCO*AFZ* Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Only if it was world RPG like. Like you could take your clan and go on different missions, warring other clans in other world areas and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[99]-RedBravo Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Maybe if they called it instead of Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter, they called it Knight Recon: Advanced War Mage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 To be fair I think this is a really great game, but I do understand what you mean, it's not Ghost Recon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FI_FlimFlam Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) If I'm going to be paying ~120.00 per year for a subscription I better have alot more to show than a few maps and 3 hours worth of added content. That is EXACTLY the idea The thing about highly functional modding tools isn't the use of the tools, its more the content that would be available IF the tools exist. There is a big difference between good and bad modding tools. But the main point is, in the current system, modding is really the only way the maximum player base can reach their ultimate satisfaction with a game. Because devs don't have time to add full on arcade physics/settings for BF2 players while adding full on realistic physics/settings for the realism junkies, and others, like for example, the sneak elements of the "sneak" genre which is become more popular, or vehicle physics, or RPG elements, etc. For example, I always someone would make a HL1 mod where you would have complete believability/realism thus forcing you to sneak in some areas(mainly because i like those Thief games), because your firepower was toned down for realism and you couldn't carry 10 weps, as you wouldn't in real life, thus creating *tension*, and *fear*, for a more immersive experience. But to code the AI "sight", and shadows, and sneakable locations would take effort. Effort like this example won't be available without $$$$. Heres a horrible thought for me. What if publishers think they will go broke if they create really good games? Would they keep pushing out so-so games to keep the money flowing? That is a worry of mine. Bottom line: I'm willing to pay more for games that i REALLY ENJOY, a LOT more. You're living in a fantasy world if you are expecting 98% of the people would pay for this subscription to pay for tools they will never use - even if they will benefit from it through mods created by a handfull of others. Again it's really a small percentage of players that will use a mod at all. If signing up for this supposed subscription says "This year for your 120.00 subscription we will be releaseing 2 maps and 3 weapons. But we will on a monthly basis be refining our mod tools for the disel engine and pumping out a full SDK and new versions of the editor every couple of months." Only a HANDFUL of people would sign up for it. I wouldn't because I don't mod or map. It would NEVER EVER make any money for UBI or GRIN. It would never get the green light. Those people who don't mod wouldn't want to pay for something and then have to wait for months for to reap the rewards of the purchase so to speak. It'll never happen. They want to purchase it and play it "out of the box". If playable content isn't there justifying the purchase or the periodic expense, then they won't. If they were actually to consider something like a subscription, they should just refine the mod tools once and offer them and the SDK as a one time purchase for say 80 - 100.00 through a download service off of UBI.com. Of course a TON of modders will be all up in arms for having to pay for the tools that have traditionally been provided free of charge in many past games. Edited November 1, 2006 by FI_FlimFlam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CkZWarlord Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) No way in hell that I'll pay monthly for a product after the original buy. I buy a product and I expect it to be good when I buy it. That's a plain right I feel I have. You buy a product and it SHOULD be a good product then. BUT.... Now if they were to offer it in a way as such for example: You get the original product for the monthly payment (as opposed to how you currently pay $50 - $60 for a game) at say $10 a month and the product works for a month then that would be fine I suppose but it is definately not my preffered way of dealing with products. I do however feel that that also should give you the right to extra content every X time. Edited November 2, 2006 by CkZWarlord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toniezz Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 No, just bring out patches and expansion packs. And with GRAW2 in mind, the future for GRAW has already been sealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batic Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 FlimFlam Well, i think single player would be very tough, if not impossible, unless it played perfectly, such that no other game could touch its features and gameplay. But how would it be possible to satisfy the broad range of peoples desires? Thats what i mean about moddability, its the requirement for an individual game to satisfy the whole spectrum of players, without charging 200 up front per game. With mods, LIKE-MINDED people with the time and know-how re-create parts of the game with your preferences in mind. Toniezz I find that sequels are most of the time, just more of the same with better graphics and lower framerates. So for the people who like the game, thats great, and it is good that they like it, but obviously the people who aren't satisfied, or who never bought it because some features weren't there, they continue to be unsatisfied. Well, i for one hope that something happens so we can all be completely happy with the games we play. Maybe pay modders... btw: how much would you pay for your ultimate game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa6 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Why should I pay twice for a product that still doesn't cut the mustard? that would be like a car dealer selling you a car, it sucks and doesn't work as advertised then they try to sell you on a monthly fee to get it to work right. what kind of a stupid lame topic is this!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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