Negative Feedback Only

[harntrox]

Aside from the reticule and no climbing interface - this sounds like .... another game completely.

I have been waiting for the answer to the 'modding question'. And today i have read what is probably the most dismal piece of information released about GRAW. My last hopes of ever taking this game seriously have been comjpletely and utterly destroyed. It is good that i have kepy my expectations low, or i would be approaching the level of dissapointment that I'm quite sure many of you will sadly feel - once you drop the cash for this uber-polished turd that bears no resemblance to the game known as GR1 - save a few words in the title.

This new game will hold less than 10% of the interest of what was once an active modding community. Clearly, it has not been designed to meet the level of modding support we saw in the other unrelated game known as GR1. They (developers at Grin, under orders from Ubi) have replaced the GR1 mod system with RvS mod system. This is by design, in keeping with the corporate company-line. The writing is on the wall ....

<extreme sarcasm follows>

No mention of weapon, character, or vehicle modding. Or even creation of new assets from 3dmax - just level placement 'sandbox' editing ala RvS. Nice. Maybe they can add punkbuster and completely eliminate any chance of connecting to a server with new maps too ....

And sure if you know Python or C Sharp go write a 1000 line script to get a gametype up and running. I'm sure there will be hundreds of gametypes like in GR1. (not)

Mark my words,

with the scale of the conflict reduced from 10 plr coop vs 100's of hostiles to 4 vs 25, Coop will be forgotten. It will be all about MP adversarial play. Even if they release tools at a later date, the game has not been designed to have the depth that GR1 had. The impetus to make total conversions and missions simply wont be there.

They console-holed the design. for the pc, its over before it began. this game's popularity will be console based, as proven by the mass of savvy pc gamers who move on to something with more meat in 6 months. Why?

Because there will be no mods.

[warhawk]

@Harntrox

I will definatly agree with you on one point. If the current status stays at a max of 4 players for MP CO-OP (non TvT varient) you will see the death of that style of gameplay in the GR community. See my post in the topic "Questions for Whiteknight".

Stout Hearts

|RE|Warhawk

[pz3]

werd...

Mod tools are a must....

Coop must be fixed....

really thoe this game has about a 50/50 chance now of succeeding or dieing ....

lets see what grin can change in the last weeks of dev

Edited September 10, 2005 by Prozac360

[X69RZX]

@H-tox

sounds like you are ass-uming a lot about what we will or won't get from very minimal information about the topic.

[Tortfeaser]

Harntrox, please give WhiteKnight a break - he did a good job of working in 90% of the questions we asked - I think negagive feedback is absolutely warranted, but to complain of a lack of information resulting from his interview is a little much.

[KRP 56]

They (developers at Grin, under orders from Ubi) have replaced the GR1 mod system with RvS mod system. This is by design, in keeping with the corporate company-line. The writing is on the wall ....

←

If this is indeed the case GRAW will offer little in gameplay excitement much like it's cousin RVS.

[NYR_32]

Far Cry has a sandbox type editor and there are mods out there like OE.....

[smokin]

Considering FarCry is the "the easiest game to mod" , not enough mods are out. That being said, Im not so gloom and doom about the game, I assume there wont be server sided mission which sucks because we wont get 100s of missions, but if the gameplay for each map is over 1-2 hours, then maybe we wont need that many missions to keep us satisfied.

Gotta see the mod tools first before I judge.

[Colin]

@H-tox

sounds like you are ass-uming a lot about what we will or won't get from very minimal information about the topic.

←

Harntrox, please give WhiteKnight a break - he did a good job of working in 90% of the questions we asked - I think negagive feedback is absolutely warranted, but to complain of a lack of information resulting from his interview is a little much.

←

Far Cry has a sandbox type editor and there are mods out there like OE.....

←

Considering FarCry is the "the easiest game to mod" , not enough mods are out. That being said, Im not so gloom and doom about the game, I assume there wont be server sided mission which sucks because we wont get 100s of missions, but if the gameplay for each map is over 1-2 hours, then maybe we wont need that many missions to keep us satisfied.

Gotta see the mod tools first before I judge.

←

Some games need modding.

Some games might not.

It is still too early to tell, most of the information we have and have seen is on a EARLY ALPHA BUILD.

We do have a lot of information but there is also a lot we have not been told.

Colin

[Cobblers]

Exactly, people are jumping the gun. We were lucky to be told of so much information on GRAW as we were in WK's interview, UBI/GRIN weren't in a position where they had to tell us anything imo.

Give it another month and a bit and we can see where we are from there, but right now people are assuming too much from information that just hasn't been released yet.

[Inc_Doc]

I'm sorry but it sounds like keep capt. mitchell alive at all cost much like GR2. witha few more bells and whistles. I'll buy in the hope that mp has something to offer but it looks like this will be it for me. Theres not a game out there thats anything like GR. Not AA, BIA, OFP, RVS, FTF and sadly it looks like GRAW to.

O well back to NCAA 2006.

[harntrox]

Harntrox, please give WhiteKnight a break - he did a good job of working in 90% of the questions we asked

Yes he did. He asked very specific questions. And he got very specific answers from the head of Grin. There is no rumor or inuendo. This is fact:

Will there be modding ability right out of the box and if so, what kind?

(um No but...)

There will be a level/sand-box type editor on release. It will also feature scripting language and all objects available in game can be used.

This was the same answer provided by RvS developers, verbatim. And look what we got for modding that game. What is more obvious is that this is GR, and they dont mention any other aspects of modding besides 'sandbox'.

Let me translate what 'Sandbox' means in terms of game design and development : ' we dont care about you, you're not a console and could impact console sales.'

Which indicates a meeting was held and it was decided that 'modding was bad' lets remove it now and maybe they'll forget about that feature as they buy new sequels to the franchise; hopefully across platforms (xbox+pc).

I would not be surprised if they took it to the next level either: Hey, Lets charge PC users to get Xbox Live Mod updates !!! It just goes on and on, spiralling downward into some kind of console-hell world where the PC is to be shunned and especially those who create free content for free entertainment of the masses. You see, according to Ubi, thats pure evil,ya know, that game-modding thing.

Thanks to the Ubisoft corporate line, the golden age of modding RSE games has past.

[Tortfeaser]

Harntrox, please give WhiteKnight a break - he did a good job of working in 90% of the questions we asked

Yes he did. He asked very specific questions. And he got very specific answers from the head of Grin. There is no rumor or inuendo. This is fact:

Will there be modding ability right out of the box and if so, what kind?

(um No but...)

There will be a level/sand-box type editor on release. It will also feature scripting language and all objects available in game can be used.

This was the same answer provided by RvS developers, verbatim. And look what we got for modding that game. What is more obvious is that this is GR, and they dont mention any other aspects of modding besides 'sandbox'.

Let me translate what 'Sandbox' means in terms of game design and development : ' we dont care about you, you're not a console and could impact console sales.'

Which indicates a meeting was held and it was decided that 'modding was bad' lets remove it now and maybe they'll forget about that feature as they buy new sequels to the franchise; hopefully across platforms (xbox+pc).

I would not be surprised if they took it to the next level either: Hey, Lets charge PC users to get Xbox Live Mod updates !!! It just goes on and on, spiralling downward into some kind of console-hell world where the PC is to be shunned and especially those who create free content for free entertainment of the masses. You see, according to Ubi, thats pure evil,ya know, that game-modding thing.

Thanks to the Ubisoft corporate line, the golden age of modding RSE games has past.

←

Man, you are hard to please!

Regarding WK's questions, I ask alot of questions in my profession and I think I have become fairly good at it - I think WK did an excellent job. You are right - He asked specific questions (sometimes you must) and got specific answers (he has to take the answers he is given) remember he was a guest, he really was not in a position to grill them like Perry mason.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Tortfeaser

[=FC=+Medic+]

Harntrox isnt hard to please, but look at it from his point of view. He comes from a modders stand point. He gets his kicks out of designing the maps, game types, and mods that we players enjoy playing. If GRAW doesnt offer a complete modding standpoint, then I think it will be a failure, no matter how good the graphics are or the storyline. I mean how many of you all actually played all of the single player missions from GR Classic and the two Mission packs all the way through??? Noone. We stopped, said "this is stupid". And we made our own missions. Why? BECAUSE WE COULD!!!! I know a few guys who =FC= introduced to the game recently and they are doing some BASIC modding now. Even four years later. Modding continues and its a huge feature and drawing point of the game.

Since UBI wants to be as vague as possible concerning GRAW, Its justifiable that people are getting anxious. We all go from what we DO know, precedents set. Harn is going from his, we all are going by what we DO know. And to boil it down.... isnt much.

So this leaves us to interpolate an image from all available means.

GRAW's image doesnt look good.

Can you say BitTorrent????

[calius]

On the mod side the sandbox part Im not clued up on and did have a few questions regarding how flexible it was for scripting ... IE: is it anything like IGOR?

Or is it just a eye-candy map maker with spawn markers?

Maybe Harntrox or other modders can answer as this is one big thing that realy would be a shame to be missing .... I want to see modders pluck out gems like Harntrox works & Jack57 for example ... I assume that Sandbox editors are pretty weak at this then?

Ive said it before on another thread that Maps and eye candy become like swapping cards in the end, what we want is intuative missions scripting for tactical fans, not just gametypes slapped on shed loads of downloadable maps.

Mind you .... if the gametypes are decent maybe thats enough ... hmmmm . I agree that if your a modder its gloomy as hell at the moment.

Edited October 11, 2005 by calius

[the.ronin]

This new game will hold less than 10% of the interest of what was once an active modding community. Clearly, it has not been designed to meet the level of modding support we saw in the other unrelated game known as GR1. They (developers at Grin, under orders from Ubi) have replaced the GR1 mod system with RvS mod system. This is by design, in keeping with the corporate company-line. The writing is on the wall ....

←

Don't you get it? Mods do not translate into $$$. Therefore the extra $$$ to develop the capability is not justified. Put the mods on an Ubi server where you have to pay $$$ to download, you will probably get a different response. Otherwise replay factor counts for little to nothing. If anything, it is considered a negative since it could very well reduce demand for "GR:AW 2 Extreme Robocop".

You are right, this thing hardly resembles GR1 ... what ticks me off are these devs and publishers that keep doing their damndest to claim that it does.

[calius]

Yes but then again it is now "Advanced War fighter" ... I think the "Ghost Recon" part is just the "ret" oh and its military based.

[the.ronin]

Yes but then again it is now "Advanced War fighter" ... I think the "Ghost Recon" part is just the "ret" oh and its military based. 

←

And the boots.

[BoGRIN]

Sigh...............

[calius]

Yes but then again it is now "Advanced War fighter" ... I think the "Ghost Recon" part is just the "ret" oh and its military based. 

←

Thats was just a joke you understand.

[Jester]

Don't you get it?  Mods do not translate into $$$. 

I disagree with that. Mods may not directly translate into $$$, but developers that are not shortsighted can see how building a game from the ground up with modding in mind will increase your game's popularity, longevity, and, ultimately, sales.

Now, I'm not going to get into the debate about RSE/Ubi/GRIN and GR:AW, I just wanted to make this small point about how some developers approach their game from the beginning. This is a big decision that gets made well before the game gets into development because when you start building an engine, you make different decisions if you actually want to make your game easy to mod. Take a look at a quote from this Gamespy article on Doom 3 mods.:

DOOM 3 is a modder's dream. Like its DOS and Win95 forebears, the game's elaborate background levels (otherwise known as WADS, or "Where's All the Data") can be manipulated with some readily downloadable tools that don't require advanced degrees in computer hackery to master.

Shooter fans can thank John Carmack (and his former id partner John Romero) for this open-ended game design philosophy. These legendary FPS pioneers designed the original DOOM's internals to allow players to extend the game far beyond its initial release state, and D3 carries on this tradition in grand style.

[Snake@War]

Good post, jester.

Why do you think UT sells so well?

[the.ronin]

Mods may not directly translate into $$$, but developers that are not shortsighted can see how building a game from the ground up with modding in mind will increase your game's popularity, longevity, and, ultimately, sales.

Interesting points, Jester. But how does extensive modding capabilities lead to sales, unless the mods are published on a retail basis (ergo, Island Thunder and DesertSiege)?

You also have to consider that cash generation is not the only metric ... it is the velocity of cash that is more critical. What happens after the first few weeks on the shelves has little bearing on profitability.

Lastly, certainly (at least I'd like to think) developers realize that modding capabilities will increase the game's replay value. But they are not the ones making the decisions.

[smokin]

Don't you get it?  Mods do not translate into $$$. 

I dont buy this either. HL2, Doom, Farcry, all are capable of some serious modding. If mods didnt translate to $$$, these top games wouldnt have them, at least not to the extent of having the capabilities they have now.

If I were to guess, mods = increased popularity to a game title(mods for GRAW = better sales for GR4). I assume HL2 provides powerful modding tools to get its engine as popular as possible so they can license it to as many commercial productions as possible. Mods = new and freash ideas availble to test for imediate gamer feedback, weather it be story line, simple scripting technique, to weapon mods, and concept. I wouldnt be surprised if it also meant a way to aquire free assets either.

[Jester]

Mods may not directly translate into $$$, but developers that are not shortsighted can see how building a game from the ground up with modding in mind will increase your game's popularity, longevity, and, ultimately, sales.

Interesting points, Jester. But how does extensive modding capabilities lead to sales, unless the mods are published on a retail basis (ergo, Island Thunder and DesertSiege)?

You also have to consider that cash generation is not the only metric ... it is the velocity of cash that is more critical. What happens after the first few weeks on the shelves has little bearing on profitability.

Lastly, certainly (at least I'd like to think) developers realize that modding capabilities will increase the game's replay value. But they are not the ones making the decisions.

←

To answer your first question, see my quote above - modding (caveat - of an already decent game) can increase popularity and longevity, which leads to more sales, hence my comment about modding indirectly leading to more money.

You are correct - it's not always the developer that makes the decision on this. However, in a case like this, the decision has already been made. This is a fundamental business model type decision. A little bit of discussion in some online gaming forums isn't going to change it, just like it won't make a conservative into a liberal. It's one of those things that people will either have to live with and keep enjoying the franchise, or decide that they can't tolerate and move on to another game. The reality is that it's not going to make a difference for a significant (to the company) number of people, therefore it will not make a dent in the sales figures. The game will sell to a big enough group that the company will see big, flashing dollar signs, then they'll jump onto their already planned out scheme of expansion packs and, eventually, another sequel. They won't care about the extra money that comes from long-term popularity of their product, because if they've made the fundamental decision I talked about already, they believe that their target consumers are only interested in the next flashy title to catch their eye. If you don't fit that mold, you're left out.

If anybody really believes that a fundamental business decision like this is going to change based on what happens here, well more power to you if you can prove me wrong. I know, somebody's going to throw out some examples of when it has, but I doubt it's going to apply to this situation. RSE finally caving and releasing the map plug-ins for RS a few years ago was a different situation entirely and really the work of one man, after RSE decided they were done with the engine. Without John S. doing all the extra work on the tutorials, it would have taken modders extra years to make any usable maps. Again, though, that's an engine that had outlived its' usefulness to the company, not a new game coming out. Look at what RSE did for modding with GR when it first came out - just IGOR.

okay, I'm babbling now. I'll stop. Sorry, it's the meds.