GRAW 2 AI

[Undercoverman]

Alec Meer occasionally writes for PCGAMER UK. His review is characteristic of someone playing a game he was obviously never going to enjoy in the first instance, regardless of how well accomplished it is. He makes some valid criticisms regarding bugs etc., but makes masses of mistakes - he mentions at the end how the first GRAW was a "buggy port", that the overhead tac map is "new"... Some research is surely required when you make such unqualified statements, and it really makes you question the validity of some of his other statements.

[Peace]

Yea, he gets some facts wrong, which is typical by reviewers in Gaming Mags (I don't get how they get to write?). Nevertheless, any review is important for sales, and all I'm saying is that by restricting the options in the GRAW series as compared with the original, GRIN and UBI will face more critical reviewers. GR appealed to a broader market. I still don't get why restrict a succesful concept of gameplay.

[rookie]

Well, surely someone who doesn't really know what reviewing is about. You should stay objective and not judge all on your opinion, especially when you dislike a genre in the beginning. Of course it shouldn't be the other way around if you like tactical shooters and cheer GRAW 2 up high in 100%+ ratings.

And you have to get it right, to begin with as mentioned above that GRAW 2 PC is not a port. Gosh he didn't even watch one trailer where everywhere you can read "Exclusively designed for PC". Anata baka ?

Also the AI isn't always waiting. (If I am a rebel-soldier and we have taken over an area, why should I move in the first place ?) Sometimes the AI is running towards you to attack or support friendlies under fire, also they quite often have a route they follow whilst being on guard.

For the "robot" part...they are screaming, talking, confirming, spotting, reloading, hit the dirt when being shot at. How much more human you can try to make the AI.

Everything hinges on how you set up the combat, rather than the combat itself

You can't be serious ? So this guy would run with his weapon of choice (360-controller) in combat w/o any sense ? Someone making a pre-judged review like that is really capable of something like that.

Usually I don't pay much attention to reviews, but this guy didn't even begin to do his homework.

[Cangaroo.TNT]

Also the AI isn't always waiting. (If I am a rebel-soldier and we have taken over an area, why should I move in the first place ?) Sometimes the AI is running towards you to attack or support friendlies under fire, also they quite often have a route they follow whilst being on guard.

I have some nice fraps footage of my assault on the rebel base (SP demo) and one of the rebels actually runs away!!! He didn't run far enough, though

[john2gr]

Indeed the enemy AI is great (well apart from the last mission in which they're shooting you even when you can't see them with the sniper rifle due to the LOD issues of the game). It's challenging and it's really amazing

The squad AI on the other hand is not as good as the enemy AI. It needs some tweaking

Edited July 18, 2007 by john2gr

[caprera]

After 4 SP missions i must say AI is not what i was expecting, also after GRAW1....

Friendlies are not so smart in cover finding and are slow to respond fire sometimes.

They should be ghosts, not "national guard just arrived recruits"...

Cover for friendly AI is often only run to a wall and stand side to it. Not lean behind it or something else.

About enemies i'm playing HARDCORE difficulty, and the only difference i see is that they shoot like terminators.

I really like to have enemies that don't forgive your faults, but the complete lack of any initiative different from chargin' or get back a little (often out of cover) is sad...

Also when i try (very often) to go quiet, and i make a mess, renegades that counterattack are just those in vicinity. Others not so far are completely strangers to the action and permit you to start over a silent attack after dealing with the firsts...

[BoGRIN]

Here goes a little something on the AI - for you who have not played it and for you who gave.

In GRAW1 the No1 biggest complaint was - The AI takes its own decisions all the time and don't go excatly where I tell them. (they were seeking the best cover related to the threat in the area) and they go do round abouts when I dont want them to.

So in GRAW2 we rewrote the AI from ground up with the goal to put more control AND responsability into the hands of the player (making GRAW2 even less run and gun)

In GRAW2 the AI will go excatly to the point (indicated by a the circle) where you put it. Even if you put it infront of a Gun Nest or in the open. They will follow your dumb ass order or smart order - up to you.

If you put your soldier in the middle of the Street they will stay there and fight from that position. If they get shot they tell you and it is up to you to move them.

If you use follow all the time and dont use individual placing of orders then yes you are in for some trouble as this is a squad leaders game. (you can chose to remove all team mates in the briefing - if this is what you like though)

If you put them by a cover they will sure use that and interact with it. Put them by covers, not in the open.

The choice was made to be clear - you cannot have both an AI that acts all on its own and also obeys your command to 100%.

Sometimes they will not obey but that is because they have been given a impossible order like move to a top of a cliff or the sky etc

And as for the Eurogamer review... I'm quite suprised they say it is a port, makes you wonder don't it - I don't take that seriously

Some info on the Sniper, Cover That, Add ons and Smoke...

Sniper special behavior - the Sniper is much more accurate and uses Sniper rifle for distance and for any opponent on a roof. The sniper also has a special use when given a Cover That order. In Assault and in Recon over 20 meter they will fire only if a opponent is visible - not spray the area as the others do in assualt (they do that to keep enemies suppressed whiel you move the rest of the team or move yourself.) use the SAW guy for som much longer and heavier Cover That orders - giving you more time to move.

In Recon any cover order will be a ambush order. No one will fire until they see a enemy in that area.

Another big thing that I have not seen in deep reviews like the one mentioned... is the use of smoke grenades. Throw them out and move your team in its cloak. Enemies will fire and recognize smoke but the fire is inaccurate - good for using against Gun Nests etc.

Mods or Add ons to the team guns are important, Grenade launcher is obvious, Silencers are amust if you want your team to act in RECON - if you don't want it on the main gun put it on the seccondary and they will switch to that when in RECON. Sights are key as they will have bteer aim, tactical grip is also good as they will have less spread when shooting automatic fire (cover that and assualt orders).

Best is to play the game... and use the team. If you run gun the tactics don't work that well for obvious reasons - we made it so to promote a squad based tactical game rather than a BF or DOOM game (which are good in their merit - but not what we want to give you guys with GRAW2)

Bo

[viiiper]

And so true for real life players too

Best is to play the game... and use the team. If you run gun the tactics don't work that well for obvious reasons - we made it so to promote a squad based tactical game rather than a BF or DOOM game (which are good in their merit - but not what we want to give you guys with GRAW2)

Bo

[caprera]

Thanks for explanations Bo, but even if some features of the game are still unused for inexperience, i was whining for some basic orders.

The problem now is not the AI attitude (i like the responsability) but i still see stupid placing of mates or they simply stop in cover behind something but look to walls.

Also movements are not accomplished sometimes, except for short distances...not to talk about "follow" order that seems to leave mates back while you go on.

THIS is the real problem. I understand that some orders may cause problems but most of the time orders are simple and are also executed in relatively long times.

You are right about the attack order. They are powerful and if you don't ask too much they do their work well.

I'll try soon smoke grenades as you suggested, but i'm still fearful to use them directly for these reasons.

[bullslink]

Well, I've been mostly playing GRAW 2 SP after I got my copy, and I must say, both the enemy and Ghost AI in game is a lot better than GRAW 1.

These are the only complaints I have:

1) Enemy AI seems oblivious to what's happening to their teammates.

2) Mule AI is unresponsive at times. Like in the mission "Joining Forces", after I destroyed the tank, and tried to get the mule to move, it just wouldn't do it. I used the tac-map to carefully find a spot where the mule could move, clicked on that point (and saw the blue circle that confirms by order), and clicked execute. But nothing happened. The mule didn't budge, and nothing was blocking it's way.

3) Ghost AI is unresponsive when they come under fire. Now from what I've read in the thread, that's been done so that complete control is given to the player. Fair enough, I still have a bunch of missions to go, so I'll see if paying a lot more attention to where I place my ghosts will help.

Other than that, I have no problems at all with the game. The Enemy snipers are pretty smart, and my Ghosts have saved my ass a whole bunch of time while I've been staring at my tac-map planning out our next move. Most of the time, they are the ones who spot snipers I didn't spot on the tac-map, and most of the time, they're the ones who take out the snipers.

As to the enemy being obvlivious to me, that happens sometimes, but not very often...so it's not a problem. Not all the Mexican rebels are equally as skilled at staying alert.

I'm really happy with my game, MAAAAAASSSIVE improvement over GRAW1.

Thanks GRIN!

[Peace]

Thanks for the post Bo, a great one .

I think that will help players understand how the friendly AI act, and I also think it is the right decision you've made with GRAW 2, giving the player better control.

My concern remains though and that is that I neither in GRAW nor GRAW 2 SP have the option to go into any teammember's body and play him in first person (i.e.,move, aim, shoot, reload etc) and the body I left becomes an AI ("soulswitch")...I know it is slightly off topic but very relevant for an AI discussion.

The reason I'm pro soulswitch (GR-wise) are simple but important:

-You can be part of the action more

-Ultimate control of all the teammembers (an AI will, for at least some years to come, not act as smart and intelligently as an experienced gamer would do)

A SP game with optional soulswitch and excellent AI would be the ultimate combination!

It would not hurt gamers who prefer letting the AI shoot up the enemy, soulswitch is an option.

Maybe something to consider in a future title!?

[Bahger]

I like the buddy AI in the GRAW 2 demo. The improved on-the-fly orders interface enables me to retain SA and move a little faster through the maps as I can now rely on the Ghosts to go where they are told, to use the cover I direct them to and to overwatch. I always move in bounds, setting up intersecting fire-lanes and it works well. I'm glad that the Attack order is now fully functional as it is invaluable for countersniping. Effective suppression by the AI frees me up to maneuver and flank and smoke grenades provide good cover for movement orders that involve crossing open spaces. In short, I have always found that the team AI can be useful as long as (i) the player understands that there are certain limitations (ii) it is utilised within the game's tactical intent. It will not shine when used for frontal assaults. It can really impress, however, when the player studies the map, examines all avenues of approach, and sets up a flanking maneuver with effective fire-arcs and good overwatch. You wanted a tac-shooter; you got one. Brothers in Arms is exactly the same; it's designed to implement fire-and-maneuver gameplay involving stealth and recon and retention of the initiative.

My only complaint -- and the game will never quite satisfy me unless it's addressed -- is that the Recon to Assault transition does not work reliably enough when assaulting from cover after a careful and efficient recon. Once an effective perimeter is established and the team is eyes-on an unaware enemy, the Assault order will cause some of them not to switch weapons but to asssault with their silenced secondaries and others will go Assault and then revert to Recon for no good reason, reporting "going sneak and peek". I apologise for banging on about this but I'd appreciate Bo's comments. The small-unit spec-ops tactics so effectively harmonised into the orders and AI systems in GRAW 2 cannot be fully satisfying from a gameplay standpoint when AI glitches hand the initiative to the enemy after a careful recon has been performed.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Bahger

[PONDLIFE]

Personally I think the improvement from GRAW AI to GRAW 2 is a huge step in the right direction and can see the effort thats been put into the code. Using the cross Com to move the team or face them in a specific area hasn't failed me yet. As for the enemy AI, Ive only played the game on Normal so far and I do see peoples opinions on the fact they don't really react to their mates getting shot right next to them, I'm hoping that by replaying the game on hard will change this.

Soul switching in [GR] was a great idea at the time, but I believe with the progress made in GRAW2 and the cool use of the Cross Com it does indeed take away the need for it, And yet I was one of many that came on here to complain about how stupid the Teams AI were in GRAW at times so that really is a compliment to GRiN on the development of the sequel.

There will always be faults, and that will change person to person, but for the money I paid and the enjoyment I'm getting I would consider GRAW2 to be a monster of a game (and thats all it is folks!) and hope it's a huge success for GRiN... after all we've put them through since the release of GRAW they deserve it.

Bo and Team, you have no reason to hide on these forums, be proud of what you have created... any chance of a third? ha, ha.

[j-man]

do the friendly ai actually use grenades and gls in GRAW2?

just wondering as it was pretty much useless to equip your ai mates with any explosives (other than maybe the zeus) as they never seemed to use them, even in an ideal situation

EDIT:

on a side note: I dont have GRAW2 yet so maybe this is irrelevant (or too hard to add/change) but in GRAW1 when under fire, the ai tried to move (sometimes) to cover. While the new complete control (dont move unless told) is a step in the right direction because sometimes they need to take the heat for some reason or another, it is also hard to give specific orders to ai when under fire yourself. A "retreat" command might be useful and easy to add, where when given (and only when given), the ai does some moderate thinking and retreats on its own to cover it finds by itself until the player can give more specific orders. just a thought

Edited July 20, 2007 by j-man

[NoQuarter]

^

They will use the grenade launchers, on their option, but you can't equip them with hand (frag/smoke) grenades, at least not in the stock game. So far they seem to be using the Zeus on their own more often than in :AW.

[Sleepdoc-iBeta]

The choice was made to be clear - you cannot have both an AI that acts all on its own and also obeys your command to 100%.

I am going to respectfully challenge this comment ( Or atleast what I think it was intended to mean)

Why couldn't an AI that was following your commands 100%, also have a routine to "fall back to its previous position of cover" when it suddenly finds itself under unacceptable levels of fire while in a move? Why should it have to stay and stand and get pummeled? Or continue to the assigned "move position" if it is much farther away than the last (or other near) position of cover? 99.2% obedience is all a squad leader can expect ...

The he could say something as simple as "Taking fire, falling back to cover"

Don't get me wrong here Bo. The game is excellent. I'm getting my 50 bucks worth. I'm one of the guys that loved GRAW1 too. Played it to death. Made all my friends buy it too. I'm loving it and I'm waiting for the modder tools to really bring the content to the next level.

But ..... that comment just didn't ring as "the only way" to me. I think the idea put forth here is not outside the realm of possability or overly difficult. Of course, that is just my opinion. I do realize that with such changes comes testing and possible unexpected results. it takes time and resources to add such a layer of logic. but I think it would be great to see it in a patch.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Sleepdoc

[Zin]

GRAW2 AI the most problem is when I give them a move order to move for a bit long distance(about 30~50m) and they get shot by the enemies. They just keep shouting "I'm Hit" "Ah..." and still move to the goal slowly. Maybe they will return fire but they won't find a cover. They are professional soldiers but they even don't know what should do when they were ambushed?

[Hockeystick]

GRAW2 AI the most problem is when I give them a move order to move for a bit long distance(about 30~50m) and they get shot by the enemies. They just keep shouting "I'm Hit" "Ah..." and still move to the goal slowly. Maybe they will return fire but they won't find a cover. They are professional soldiers but they even don't know what should do when they were ambushed?

Well like Bo said.

In GRAW2 the AI will go excatly to the point (indicated by a the circle) where you put it. Even if you put it infront of a Gun Nest or in the open. They will follow your dumb ass order or smart order - up to you.

If you put your soldier in the middle of the Street they will stay there and fight from that position. If they get shot they tell you and it is up to you to move them.

I think it's hard to have both "self thinking" AI and a "follow my every order exactly" AI. Imagine that you order one of your ghosts to take cover behind a car, then suddenly a rebel shows up behind him and opens fire. Your ghost now have to find new cover by himself so he walks around the car to take cover on the other side. However, another rebel shows up right behing the ghost in his new cover.

Now you'll probably curse and smash the monitor. "What the hell is wrong with you you ######ing Ramirez ######er!" etc etc etc. That's what people complained about in GRAW1 so I think the new system (unrealistic or not) is better.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Hockeystick

[Zin]

Actually I don't hate the AI in GRAW1.

Sometimes they act like Rambo and kill all the enemies.

I know this is hard to write a AI have both function. The AI will never work exactly what you expected.

Why I say that is when I play the Mission 4(HARD Level) after destory the tank and passed the sniper zone. The short path before you reach the car park. There will be 1~3 enemies and I move my squad to the corner and they all killed by one enemy who just standing a few meters away in front of them(At the stairs). They won't fall back or find a cover or even firing and they all dead. What can I do? Should I clear the road for my squad and ask them to move when safe?

I'm not giving them some difficult job, just clear a short path for me and they all dead.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Zin

[caprera]

@ Zin: ###### happens...

Btw sometimes i move them by direct first pers order and they arrive in position looking at a wall or at a street blocked 4 meters away.... And i don't know how to turn them without tact map...

Edited July 20, 2007 by caprera

[ERIXX]

Its a fkg shame but i haven't seen much change in enemy IA since the days of Delta Force 1.... There's no realism in starting to shoot and 95% of the enemies just staying where they are.... In real life, 50-75% would abandon their posts and search you, etc.... In GRAW2, like elsewhere, just 2-3 guys take positions to attack you....

Then you have the lonely enemies that are found in the weirdest places!

This is ridiculous and lasting way to long!

[FI_FlimFlam]

With skimming through the posts in this thread, Id' thought I'd contribute since I have just put up a coop server and am feeling my way through the enemy AI.

I can see nothing has changed from the ESP and foliage and rocks.

I ask you what is the point in an outdoor map when you cannot use foliage for cover or stealth. All it serves in this game, just like the previous is to be a visual block for the players in the server but COMPLETELY INVISIBLE to the enemy AI. I I've been playing the timber map for the last hour and have tried multiple approaches to the enemy, stealth is the absolutely worst tactic to try because the AI can see right through trees and bushes and senses you. The Heavy mounted mg's will turn 90 degrees instantly when you try to sneak around and flank them.

I mean come on GRIN, you have had a year+ to address this and the community has mentioned this repeatedly. This is nothing but frustrating and completely holds the game back from outdoor environs. Sure you have made more pretty foliage, but it's completely useless in COOP. I would have really liked to see the "improved stealth" actually mean something versus the AI in this regards.

[KeyFox]

So far, I'm enjoying the improvements from GRAW to GRAW2, a very nice job. I like being able to give my soldiers orders and having them follow them, though two little pieces I would request: 1) If they're being shot at, just simply returning fire without being told and 2) the addition of a Take Cover order in the Crosscom, which would cause the selected unit(s) (not available for the Mule, Tanks, etc) to seek the nearest cover/concealment relative to the direction of incoming fire on THEM. I think those would adaquately solve any problems between the 'do it all for me' sorts of folks and the 'plan out all your team's moves' solution that GRIN implemented.

I have noticed, however, a problem with the Attack AI. I had Brown armed with his LMG and a ZEUS. I gave him an Attack order on an approaching Abrams, and what does he do? Unloads his machine gun at it.

Um.

Sorry, there's no excuse for that. There's no more specific order you can give - if there were an order available (Attack with AT), that would be one thing. But the AI should be smart enough to know that when I order an attack on something that is going to completely ignore anything but the rocket, the rocket is what gets used. It happened three times in a row. I couldn't believe it.

Or, if we continue on the we need to give our team members explicit instructions route, then add Attack with (Primary. GL, Secondary, Backpack/AT) orders to the Crosscom?

[dirtbag]

Just a few comments,

Friendly AI , so far on hardcore gets the job done. But I don't expect much. When moving I give them short legs on the path to somewhere, as they move more reliably. In assault mode they do a good job of covering their assigned arcs. I switch from recon to assault under cover as the enemy is coming up on my positions and it works ok. I have only played the 1st 2 missions and this system has worked well for me. I expect them to cover my back while I do the grunt work, and they do that just fine. Might have to setup an assault by AI and see how that works out, should be amusing.

Enemy AI, totally random, sometimes they have super vision and fire at me from positions where I can not see them. Other times they keep on coming up the road into my prepared positions. It is both funny and sad, need to tweak them just a bit.

Overall so far other than the super soldiers on [GR] the AI is ok, not brilliant but ok. If modding tools come out I am sure it will be adjusted.

For the GRIN guys, maybe an AI control panel in the options section, so people can tweak the AI themselves. I don't know that it is possible but just a thought.

[Sleepdoc-iBeta]

When moving I give them short legs on the path to somewhere, as they move more reliably.

This has always been true inthe GRAW series and is the secret to immersive use of your AI. the only way to give them longer legs is to use the Tactical maps with waypoints to move them.

For the GRIN guys, maybe an AI control panel in the options section, so people can tweak the AI themselves. I don't know that it is possible but just a thought.

Cool idea. Of course, this assumes that a series of numbers are the only thing aafecting the levels of AI. like distance, time to react from that disatnce. awareness trigger values, bullet spread from a distance etc. This is probably mostly true. But I don't know that GRiN would be confortable showing all of us the variables and tables used to govern AI behavior. But what a cool idea.