Freedom , Replayability, Options nd Non-Linearity

[Peace]

This fall we will have the exact game that you seek, as well as quite a few of us. The game is called Armed Assault and is from the creators of OFP. Heres the link. http://www.armedassault.com/

Ty for link

Cool video of real long distance sniping (middle and later half of video) and extremely open maps

http://www.loadedinc.com/e32006/video/video.php?&id=805

hmm will need to check this game out when it comes...

[Colin]

Again you have large open spaces, but not much detail, the characters are poor, and I would guess they are not that switched on either, but one will have to waite.

2nd got right on the money, the tech at the moment can give us so much but a game will always lack in different areas, its not that Development Teams dont want to make our dreams come true Im sure they all do, its just the hardware.

You watch when DX10 is out in 7 months and new games arrive and old game that have been geared towards DX10 will shine and be better games for it, GRAW being one, this game in 7 months will look a lot better, play a lot better.

How ever you look at it the future of gameing is looking better and better, and alot of it is down to Developers just Like Grin, RSE and Ubisoft they just keep pushing the envelope.

We will benifit even if it is in dribs and drabs.

[FA sear]

Considering the size of the maps, I didn't have a problem with the graphics at all. The graphics on the first OFP left a lot to be desired, but to me nothing beats OFP. I can definitely deal with the graphics in that video.

I know graphics are a priority to most people, but to me the graphics are definitly a secondary.

[Colin]

Considering the size of the maps, I didn't have a problem with the graphics at all. The graphics on the first OFP left a lot to be desired, but to me nothing beats OFP. I can definitely deal with the graphics in that video.

I know graphics are a priority to most people, but to me the graphics are definitly a secondary.

I agree very mush but dont you think in this day and age we could have both ?? but this is the problem we cant, back to the hardware again.

On a personnel note I9 found OFP toooo big

[gr460]

One of the complaints some people have about [GR] is the disconnectedness of the missions. I always thought it would be cool if what you did, or didn't achieve in one mission would affect subsequent missions. We now have missions that certainly flow well, but still no dynamic story line. The Wing Commander series had a dynamic story structure which allowed for lots of replayability. For any mission, there were 3-4 objectives. You can end the mission by returning to base, but whther you achieved certain objectives would change what your objectives were for the next mission. For GRAW, it would be great if you had a similar scenerio. If you can blow something up, then in the next mission, the enemy doesn't have a certain asset. If you don't manage to blow the target, then the enemy has tanks. Make achieving all the objectives very difficult, but by doing so, you can finish in 5-6 missions, but by achieving 1-2 objectives per mission, you can still win, but it ill take 15-20 mission. Same with wing Commander. There were 30+ missions, but you would have to play through many time to see them all. It was fun, once you made it through a few times, to see what your next mission would be if you decided which objectives to do or not. Anyways, that's my thoughts on replayability.

[FA sear]

I agree very mush but dont you think in this day and age we could have both ?? but this is the problem we cant, back to the hardware again.

On a personnel note I9 found OFP toooo big

OFP too big? Hmm, well to each their own.

I'm just one of those people that are willing to sacrifice on the graphics for bigger maps.

As long as there are hardware limitations, I am willing to sacrifice on graphics. For now.

[chiles4]

I purchased Ghost Recon about two years after its initial release. I thought it was a great game. When I started checking out the community and the number of mods available, I was breathless.

Word to that Bro! I tried the GR demo near to when first came out and I thought it was lame! That's what you get for playing Quake 2 constantly for a year! I tried the demo two years later and was in awe! [GR] was also the first MP game I ever played.

The real reason why this has a relatively lesser chance of happening is because the publisher does not want a completely non-linear game. Most of the shooters these days are somewhat linear and the emphasis is on stories rather than replayability.

A good exception to this is SWAT 4. Perp spawnpoints are fairly random and you can take on each map from many different directions. The replayability makes SWAT 4 an excellent game. And it has very little storyline. The sequel (Stetchkov Syndicate), from what I've played of it, has a little but it doesn't force itself upon you.

I think you guys are implying that publishers want games that are very good but with short "lifespans" so we can buy the sequel one year later and then the next sequel and so on. I think that gamers as a community have moved beyond that and expect a game to evolve and have ongoing support and to have a vibrant mod community. Can anyone imagine the combat gaming scene without multi-player??? It would be like telling publishers to ignore that huge pot of gold just sitting on the sidewalk.

I think that by developing an incredible, moddable game that people play for years, that they are paving the way to increased future sales. If I couldn't play [GR] co-op (and soon GRAW co-op) I think I'd end up playing with my dogs more.

[KRP 56]

Good points buddhiraja73.

[Lowrider]

Last month, in addition to the GRAW single-player campaign, I finally got around to playing both the Operation Flashpoint campaign.

While there are still triggers and scripted events in OFP, the openness was noticeable compared to GRAW.

The OFP mission where your squad's been killed and you have to get to the evac point? You can go by stealth on any path you desire, or you can steal a jeep and run for it, or ambush squads as you go, etc. True or not, I got the feeling you can achieve mission goals in ways the designers didn't foresee. This gives the single-player missions more replay value.

The GRAW campaign was great fun, but I haven't played it much since I finished the campaign. Still, I'm looking forward to what the developers and modders bring.

[CkZWarlord]

Another thing to consider is the direction of the publisher. It should be obvious by now that alot of publishers, not just Ubi, are gearing toward epic, story-driven games with intricate hollywood plots. GRAW is just another example of this.

Yep, this is completely true and I am absolutely hating it, it seems as though nowadays

the story and the graphics are more important than the gameplay... Not that it is a bad thing

in itself to have a great story along with great graphics but I have to admit that I keep finding

myself reaching back to much older games whos replayability and gameplay were much

better (Think here of classics as GR1, StarCraft, Diablo 2, Command and Conquer: Red Alert, Worms: Armageddon, Homeworld 2 and so on). All those games have become classics

but but if you ask me wether or not they have outstanding graphics (even in their own time)

I'd have to say no. Just about average, but they are the games I reach for in my collection,

even after beating them a zillion times, when the modern games bore me. Those games

never do. And I am now talking about games almost a decade old. The point of this is, that

I don't see myself playing the games being released now in 10 years. Take for example BF2.

Nice game, but it doesn't have the proverbial "IT". Same goes for GR:AW but it isn't fair of

me to say that GR:AW is lacking "IT" as it is unfinished at this time.

I really do hope that when GRiN finishes GR:AW that we will have our worthy succesor, but

as of yet, I do not see it happening for the MP TvT community, although I think that the MP

Co-op community is getting all they hoped for, too bad that Co-op just isn't my preffered way

of playing...

[buddhiraja73]

Thanks everybody who posted meaningful replies in this thread. Your opinions are very important. Keep them coming as this topic is very close to the hearts of true GR fans.

Edited June 6, 2006 by buddhiraja73

[FA sear]

While there are still triggers and scripted events in OFP, the openness was noticeable compared to GRAW.

The OFP mission where your squad's been killed and you have to get to the evac point? You can go by stealth on any path you desire, or you can steal a jeep and run for it, or ambush squads as you go, etc. True or not, I got the feeling you can achieve mission goals in ways the designers didn't foresee. This gives the single-player missions more replay value.

Have you tried making it to the first extraction point? I have not run that one in a while, but is it Morton? Anyway, I exited the forested area, and made it to the first designated extraction zone. It was crawling with Russian soldiers. Fortunately I took the LAW off of the downed friendlies and took out the T72 or T80 that is there. I couldn't tell which it was as I hit it from down an embankment and I could only see the turret.

Anyway, a squad of Russians came my way while I was taking out the armour, and took me out.

The vast landscapes definitely allow you to experiment with things that you simply cannot in other games.

Edited June 6, 2006 by jchung

[RuTHlezz1]

I am willing to give up some eye candy for bigger maps and game play to an extent. I used to love planetside becuase of the large sized maps, tank- plane- car selection and weapons but when it comes down to it I am not willing to give up so much eye candy that the game looks dated comming out of the gate. Like I said you want big maps and big games try world war II online, it looks as good as the new OFP and by design is 100 times the size.

I see that a lot of us dont feel that GRAW has "IT", not including me since I think the game has IT and you will see IT when us mission scripters and map makers get a shot to make the maps that we all wanted with the mission scripting that GR1 had (if possible, only time will tell). I would also like to see in the future what the map size limitations will be, from reading post in the modding forums it would seem that we could make the massive maps and do the same thing the new OFP dpes by making the maps less detailed and use simple boxes extruded, add some detail objects, UV Map and skined for a less detailed map that is bigger. But this is all speculation from a modder finding a way to remove the map boundries and leaving the mission area and finding the far distant building to be less detailed.

Edited June 6, 2006 by RuTHlezz1

[Yodasplat]

I am playing Elder Scrolls : Oblivion lately and thinking how great it would be if the GR series could take a leaf out of their book as far as freedom, replayability, options and non-linearity are concerned. ( I am NOT talking about the rpg elements of that game but the freedom etc. aspects).

In Oblivion we have a full country as playing area and can go to any part at any time of the day. There are urban and rural areas and we can arrive at a location at dawn, noon, dusk or night and the map looks different. The weather also changes from time to time. Depending on my action the game changes and the game is absolutely non-linear.

Just imagine how great it would be if we had Mexico City and it's surrounding rural areas as our playing area which has been taken over by rebels. We could travel to any area we choose to, whether by foot or by choppers, and take on any enemies we like. Depending upon whether we choose to do a certain thing, the game will change, like if we can take out AA guns then we can have air support. If we do not or cannot take the AA guns out then air support will not be available. Everything will be dynamic and not linear.

If this is incorporated in a GRAW mission pack or sequel then that game will be more in keeping with the spirits of [GR], as far as non-linearity and freedom are concerned. Please tell me what you think and give reasons.

I think this is a great idea buddhiraja73. I am sure it's unlikely it will ever happen but an open-ended military shooter, with maps as big as OFP and a world environment structured like Oblivion (or Grand Theft Auto for that matter) is an excellent point for replayability. After all I am still firing up Oblivion or GTA from time to time even if I am not actively following any stories or quests. The point is, when you have an open world to play with, you can go back to the game 3 months later and pick it up and just roam around and make a mess of things .. and then pick up any open quests just for the heck of it.

Granted, military action is structured: you go in, you shoot things, you get out. The end.

There is no roaming around generally ... unless you are Spec Ops, dropped behind enemy lines and you need to survive and often wait around and try to either avoid contact or find food or catch drops from air support, etc. in between missions. Until somebody assigns a mission (quest) to you and you gotta carry it out.

IMO that’s not that different that Oblivion/Morrowind in a sense. Oblivion is the story about a spec-ops guy isn't it?

But that’s probably just me seeing the similarities … since I like both GRAW and Morrowind.

[FA sear]

The point is, when you have an open world to play with, you can go back to the game 3 months later and pick it up and just roam around and make a mess of things .. and then pick up any open quests just for the heck of it.

Granted, military action is structured: you go in, you shoot things, you get out. The end.

There is no roaming around generally ... unless you are Spec Ops, dropped behind enemy lines and you need to survive and often wait around and try to either avoid contact or find food or catch drops from air support, etc. in between missions. Until somebody assigns a mission (quest) to you and you gotta carry it out.

Exactly. I love going back to old OFP missions and trying different things. I messed around on the Hind Attack mission in OFP for so long that after a few hours of sneaking up behind T80 tanks and placing satchels, ordering my men to place satchels on the roads to take out convoys, etc... the sun began to rise. At this point we no longer had the cover of night, and Russians eventually sighted us and decended on our position.

Anyway, one could easily spend hours on end running all over this map placing satchels everywhere. The sunrise is the only constraint on this mission.

[Poita]

Actually Operation Flashpoint was a kind of 'Ghost Recon' in the 'Oblivion' world. it in fact didnt work out so well. It was ok for specific sp misions but in mp it was too spread out and unfocused. Not tomention atrocious net code for OpFlash.

Then again games like CS are too tight and small. [GR] got it just about darn perfect for map size. A little bigger would be ok but not much. MP maps about twice the size of RR Bridge or Big River would be about perfect. Any bigger and the action drags out too thinly.

I think it's a bit of a Goldylocks thing. Too small is arcady, too big is too ponderous and about [GR] or a bit bigger is jussssst about right.

I haven't played GRAW yet but it seems to me that it's a case of 'much work is lost for the want of a little more'. Does it bother the folks at GRIN that so many hardcore GR fans are hurting because a hand ful of key (and probably fixable) things are ruining what 'could' be a great game for them?

[sui317]

i think that there should be optional/scripted missions, when moving one direction on a large map (say left side for ease) mission one would be started, but when moving thru the center of the map mission two would kick in, and if moving on the right side of the map, mission three would start,

all missions different and diverse

like you can script in igor you could make one army spawn when you enter a certain area, so why not spawn a mission that way ?

it may not be possible, but it would make for more replayability

and you can just start a mission with a recon objective on the other side of the map so you do not have a prefered way to go

i hope this can be done with mod tools, because it would make for great gaming and it would not interfere with the total story line if you have more in story teams to deal with situations (fictional teams)

[Kurtz]

You don't need large open maps in GRAW, the maps are large enough, you need to expand the mission area restrictions to allow more tactical variations. There are a lot of ways to approach objectives, you can try different things, expanding the boundaries would add to this.

Replayability is another matter, to have real replayability of the same mission, you need either random AI placement or randomly changing objectives. You can do random placement in a game like SWAT 4, not so easy in GRAW. What extends a game's longevity are mods, especially mission mods, that is what kept GR going for 5 years and still going. For SP, you need new missions and maps (expansion packs, mods), for MP, you need more MP maps and gametypes. That's the answer to extending the life of the game.

[Salden]

I just want to be sure that everyone understands that in this game, you have a job to do and you have more jobs to do after that. Time is of the essence so there's no need for "side" missions and things of that nature. If the devs really wanted to be brutal, they could have used time based triggers rather than event/progress triggers. This would be even more "realistic" but again would detract from gameplay and certainly replayability.

They have made design decisions that appeal to both "sim" and "casual" fans. Want to be all stealth and covert? Grab a silencer and sneak around and be quick on the draw. Want to run and gun? Grab a heavy machinegun and have at it. You can play both ways or any way in between. I like the fact that the missions are much more complex than [GR]. The only reason why people perceive GR:AW to be more linear than [GR] was because every [GR] mission was the same. Complete your goal, then get to the smoke. GR:AW has multiple goals in each mission and I appreciate that much much more than [GR]'s mission style.

[FA sear]

Actually Operation Flashpoint was a kind of 'Ghost Recon' in the 'Oblivion' world. it in fact didnt work out so well. It was ok for specific sp misions but in mp it was too spread out and unfocused. Not tomention atrocious net code for OpFlash.

Then again games like CS are too tight and small. [GR] got it just about darn perfect for map size. A little bigger would be ok but not much. MP maps about twice the size of RR Bridge or Big River would be about perfect. Any bigger and the action drags out too thinly.

I think it's a bit of a Goldylocks thing. Too small is arcady, too big is too ponderous and about [GR] or a bit bigger is jussssst about right.

Good points, very true, MP maps cannot be too big unless you have a hundred people on each side. However, I think Buddhiraja73 was specifically refering to the SP portion of the game. In that respect larger maps would be a welcome addition.

[UberSoldier]

Mitchell, this is your mission, do you choose to accept it, roam free in the jungle for 5 days and shoot anyone you can see.Including small animals and hostile plants. If you can, please try to collect as much gold as possible while you are out there. An evac rescue-pegasus will be sent out for you and meet you at the rendevouz point when you have collected enough mana and experience.Good luck.

Ps.The trolls are marching towards pentagon again so if you see any, shoot to kill.

You know I think that it is not cool to make fun of others and Budd never insulted you or wrote in a sarcastic way, GRIN guy. I've seen some of your people ridicule community members before and this is a great example.

Some of you believe that you are superior but guess what Grin should be called GREEN cause that's what you are, a bunch of amateurs programmers that were not and are not capable of making a GR sequel. Your maps look like bad Hollywood B movie sets yeah B movie sets, they look fake and let's not get in to the bugs. So my suggestion is don't make fun of other community members points or suggestions next time respond in a mature way. GR:Advanced Mediocrity.

Edited June 8, 2006 by UberSoldier

[unwritt3n]

You know I think that it is not cool to make fun of others and Budd never insulted you or wrote in a sarcastic way, GRIN guy. I've seen some of your people ridicule community members before and this is a great example.

Some of you believe that you are superior but guess what Grin should be called GREEN cause that's what you are, a bunch of amateurs programmers that were not and are not capable of making a GR sequel. Your maps look like bad Hollywood B sets yeah B sets, they look fake and let's not get in to the bugs. So my suggestion is don't make fun of other community members points or suggestions next time respond in a mature way. GR:Advanced Mediocrity.

Justin Timberlake - Cry Me A River

[FA sear]

This is a good thread with a lot of good points being made. Let's try to not end up with it being locked.

[glcm1961]

This topic reminds me of the time I bought Operation Flashpoint and Ghost Recon within days of each other. I loaded OF first because I had heard such great things about it, but after playing it for about ten minutes I thought it was way too confusing and proceeded to try my luck with GR. I played all the way through GR in about two weeks and enjoyed it. After about four months of playing GR, I stared at the OF icon on my desktop and thought, "what the heck, I'll give it another shot".

Man, talk about an epiphany. The non-linear, wide open play of OF combined with the squad control made a believer out of me. I played that game for several years along with the expansion packs and am chomping at the bit for Armed Assault. I did purchase GRAW just because I thought it would be a more non-linear and because of the squad control, but I have been very dissappointed. After playing the first several missions and dying a million times (mostly by the enemy tanks while defending the blown up embassy), I gave up playing it. I guess Operation Flashpoint spoiled me when it comes to this sort of game and the jumping through hoops concept to complete a mission doesn't appeal to me in the least.