PunkBuster

[Rocky]

How may I help here and answer some questions.

Thanks Terry, appreciated.

[Terrynator]

Thank you for the invite to your site Rocky.

ROCOAFZ

PB is both server and client. It can be turned on and off but because it is integrated into the game. The game must be restarted each time as the on/off change doesn't take effect until the game is restarted. This applies to both server and client. It has to be that way to resist a hack from disabling it while playing.

For the dedicated server side, the easiest way is to make two indentical start scripts. One with PB enabled and one without.

For the client all that normally is required is to set it off on the menu and restart the game. But this means two starts to turn it back on. As an alternative to make it even easier again a script that contains the PB enable or disable command in the game config file or a command line batch file. More difficult to setup initially but once done is easy to use after that. You can leave your PB client turned on (at least in the games I play) when on non PB servers but there is no need and you will get messages displayed that won't really mean much.

For games with PB support, it is up to the players to speak up and ask admins to turn it on. For games that don't have it yet, lobbie the game company.

PB is the best defence against rampant cheating that inflict a lot of games these days. I'm sure we all want as fair a game as is possible. Game patches can't keep up to blocking cheats. A dynamic system like PB is the only practical method I am aware of that can respond in reasonable time and adapt to stopping them.

Edited April 13, 2004 by Terrynator

[pz3]

PB is good stuff it does stop a lot of thoes little 13 year old kids from cheating that can ruin your day.

But theres most likely will still be game glitches and thoe cheaters that never get detected. But you can usually spot them =P

I really hope GR2 implements PB into it =)

As for a ban list im kind of partial. lets say u download a mod and it replaces files and then u get banned for cheating or somthing? i dunno

i just wont download mods I guess.

and in ravenshield it has a gamma restriction so u cant go over what the server says.... i was on one server for about an hour and 8 ppl were booted for having their gamma at 1.8 and 2 ... shows how lame some ppl can be ... do what ever it takes to get an advantage.

Edited April 14, 2004 by Prozac360

[Camel]

Replays are the only right tool to catch hackers, period.

AMEN

[ruggbutt]

Terrynator banned me from the Punksbusted site for asking questions regarding the Witness case, and the fact that the tool they used was called a beta and be treated as such by EB themselves. I was polite in their forums but they do not like anyone to question their "authority". PB isn't even as good as replays for catching hackers.

I made a mod that is still in use by several gaming ladders that gives green tracers for every round fired in GR. Rocky has a copy of it. It immediately shows you the bullet patterns in the replays, the mod only works single player and replays. It also gives green bullet holes in objects, removes the blood and puts pink bullet holes in the soldiers. All of these help to show bullet trajectory. It uses the engine of the game, therefore showing every bullet fired just as the server calculated it. Anyhow, it also shows what retlock and combat aim looks like. We used that and our IP logger and it helped us clean up almost all of the clan servers on ASE that were laddering. Replays are hardcore proof, and what I have found to be true is that people that were using SIFF (names hack) almost always used some form of retlock. What that did is take the pressure off to prove SIFF and gave us hardcore proof of retlock. It didn't take a seasoned replay watcher to see retlock, a n00b could even tell what it was.

Replays will always be better than software that needs to be constantly updated. Look at RvS, it's been patched how many times? Is it fixed? Or do they break something w/the fixes sometimes? Of course they do, and PB is the same way. By all means implement PB but give us our server/client replays. Had we had replays of the Witness issue EB wouldn't have had to issue a statement that Witness should be pulled of the Master Ban list. EB stated that they need to do some more work w/the MD5 tool. In fact I think Tony Ray issued the statement himself.

Let's not let some overzealous group of wannabe lamers persecute an innocent person because of software issues. Terry, if you guys have one innocent person on the MB list, you are all no better than the cheaters themselves. Remember that. We need replays where the proof is in the pudding, not some screenshot that says someone was hacking and we have to rely 100% on something we cannot see, touch or feel.

Edited April 15, 2004 by ruggbutt

[Super-Bob]

Let's not let some overzealous group of wannabe lamers ...

And lets not turn this topic into a revenge fueled flame fest. Consider this an official warning. I will not tolerate any of this.

[Rocky]

Please, no more name calling, this is a very interesting discussion with good points being made all round, let's not go down the wrong road. Thank you.

[Stig]

Although Ruggbutt's post is a bit harsh I have to agree that replay's are the best method (although that still dependant on human(read flawed) interpritation)

I feel PB is a very good tool though & I'd consider it more of a filter than a one stop no cheating cure. If PB stops 80% of cheaters then it's worth it but the most improtant thing is that inocent gamers don't get banned.

here's a recent example of my experiences with RVS. I'm a hard core GR fan but I thought while waiting for news of GR2 I'd try RVS. So Having played a couple of single player missions I felt confident enough to give MP a go. however I'd not installed PB yet so I was limited to what servers I could play on.

What I found was I was getting absolutely cained & was left frustrated & thinking ######???

I was gonna chuck my RVS in the bin I was so annoyed but after a while I thought I'd download PB & try some of the other servers before I made my final judgement. So this I did & what did I find. I found I was holding my own & although there were many better players than me, I could still kick butt & I had a great time & enjoyed myself. I still don't like it as much as GR but it's a good fun substitute. Since then I've played on a few other servers & I'm convinced there's still a few cheaters out there but now it's only an anoying few, not a multitude.

Now I realise that the servers without PB were riddled with cheaters what cheatts I don't know & don't care but if it wasn't for PB. I would've chucked RVS in the bin.

My Conclusion:

PB or something simular would be a great tool & should be included however You need replays as well as the final authority. think of it as PB is a deterant & eliminates the majority of Cheats but replays mop up the trickier ones. With PB I think there main consern should be protecting the innocent & providing a easy way for an accidental/innocent ban to be delt with.

As for genuine cheaters they can rot in a hole for all I care.

Cheers Terry your post was most informative.

Edited April 15, 2004 by Stig

[ruggbutt]

You're right Bob, and I apologize for that. My bad. But what I posted is absolutely true, you can do a search on my posts.

But I digress...........PB is a great tool, but replays served the GR community very well even before EB looked at doing business w/UBI. If I had my druthers I'd rather see replays than PB. The server admins out there that ladder w/these games generally feel the same way. PB would be a nice secondary addition but replays are the way to go.

Now a little OT but still relevant: I was vocal about the Witness issue and him being put on the MBL because of the MD5 tool that was still a beta. I have no love for Witness but I believe in fairness for all. Doesn't matter if it's for Wit or for Terrynator. If one person is unfairly banned then PB is a waste of software. With replays and PB you have a system of checks and balances (just the like justice system). I'd love to see both actually, regardless of my personal feelings about Terry and his group.

As it stands now if the software says you are cheating then you are, and as we all know software is perfect.

Edited April 15, 2004 by ruggbutt

[ARDelta]

I think PB should be implemented, but I want replays as well. The thought of relying solely on a piece of software is a little scary.

[Super-Bob]

My guess is that there will be PB in GR2. When ubi made their contract with EB for RVS I doubt that it was just for that one game, it was probably for any game that they wanted it for. Pandora Tomorrow has PB too.

[=WO=Scorpion]

PB would be great but ....

Replays are needed ....

And if PB bans, let a server be able 2 unban that player for that server ....

Because if it's a PB error ... I think it should be able 2 undo ...

[pz3]

PB = Yay!

Replays= Yay!

actually repalys do help catch cheaters that keep comeing back to your server but for the 1 time some random fool they are useless... need PB

I've never experienced PB problems other then a few times. Changed a setting too much and it didnt like it... but it was like a kick for 0 minutes and fixed it joined right back up.

[WOLFAnubis]

I think PB is a good "tool" and a form of prevention. It puts that element of doubt in the casual or kiddie scripting cheater. "Will I get caught? Does Punkbuster catch this?" They may think twice about using a cheat.

Replays are good as well, but there can be that element of human error. There are replays that everyone would view differently. The biggest hinderance is opinion. Biased or unbiased, it still comes down to opinion. Now, I'm not referring to the clear cut obvious cases, but the case where the cheater is actually pretty good at cheating. Thats the major flaw with things that are left for interpretation, the human emotion and psyche. Lessons learned.

There will never be a "Cure All". The only thing that can help put some relief to this burning issue, is a community standing together and striving for the greater good, regaldless of opinion and relationships. Only facts.

[Suli]

well im a replay man myself. the admin on goods servers have very good checks and balances in place, and from what ive seen " if in doubt wait it out " cheaters will be detected eventually, i just hope that there is some form of partial cd-key ban option for gr 2 to take care of floating ip's.

PB is a nice(?) tool not perfect but very good none the less, i hope they do include it, i keep a personal list as most of us probly do for trusted servers. even if that means days when the seats are full i dont play.

but i can only hope that replays stay for gr 2, i trust the eyes of the observers even when ( if ) im the one in there sites.

if in doubt of PB play on the trusted servers, it never failed me.

[ruggbutt]

The problem is that PB doesn't show you anything, or a screenshot at most. I don't know about you peeps, but all my life I wanted to find out for myself. Not have someone tell me how it is.

[Super-Bob]

The problem is that PB doesn't show you anything, or a screenshot at most.

Yes it does.

[ARDelta]

If PB detects a problem/cheat, what information does it display to the culprit, the server admin, and the other people in the server? Does it log any information? Just wondering.

[ruggbutt]

It shows you a screenshot, you have to put all your trust in the program.

I'd love for someone to post here the names of one or two pieces of software that haven't needed patching. If we can't get both replays and PB then replays are the obvious choice. I can show even a n00b that someone is cheating on replays (at least in GR I can).

[ruggbutt]

Now, I'm not referring to the clear cut obvious cases, but the case where the cheater is actually pretty good at cheating.

And thats a small minority of hackers. Most of the people that cheat don't want to learn how to be a good player, thus they're easy to catch cuz they don't play or act like an experienced player...............they don't even know how to cover their tracks.

[Hexogen]

Well, from much past experience with PB, I can assure you it works. What info does it show to the server/players/host? Well for one, if it detects you hacking, it will "KICK" you and that kick and the reason are displyed on the screen for all to see. If the server is streaming to the MBL (Master ban list), that kick will go to all servers running the Auto-MBL tool from Punksbusted, and he will be prevented from joining other servers. PunkBuster now also bans hardware guid's. not just the guid from your CD. So, if you get caught by PB, it might ban yopur motherboard or your hard drive, or your graphics card lol. It woks well in many other games.

[Hostile Person]

Now days games need anticheat programs like PB, cause of all the cheaters that are multiplying. Replays do catch them, but when playing in puplic servers with or without admins cheaters are often free to play. Admins want to play also instead of checking every replay of "possible" cheaters. PB does that for them and catches most cheaters. Ladder tend to slow down when clans want replays from the games and it sometimes takes a week, before they enter the score/result or if theyre not happy they give the replays to admins and they have to spend lots of time to watch them trough. I stopped playing in ladders cause of all the cheating accusations and paranoia. Basicly cheaters killed the game and without anti-cheat program they were free to spoil the game.

[ruggbutt]

Lets see how all of you handle it when you are banned and placed on the MBL when you weren't cheating. It happened w/Witness and only because of Wit's stature in the community was the case looked into by Tony Ray of Even Balance. While Wit was exonerated his name was dragged thru the mud for 4 months. How do you guys feel about being branded a cheater because PB released a tool that was a beta version?

PB and EB makes me sick in the fact that they are becoming alot like UBI in that money is most important and it doesn't matter to them that an innocent was caught up by their software.

[|S&P|Papa6]

GR never had PB and never should. I've also seen how well the community has had ppl on the servers who watch suspected cheaters and took screenshots then banned them.

I say screw PB and let the community police itself. if need be, I'll just use my all seeing eye app and join servers outside of PB servers.

[Dannik]

PunkBuster is great if you're too lazy to be a smart gamer, in terms of analyzing replays and evidence, or just ensuring you play with people you can trust.

Otherwise, it's falliable software that is ready to judge you based on what EvenBalance determines is the only criteria, and can lock your entire machine out of any PB-enabled title for life, and the burden of proof is on your shoulders to prove you weren't cheating.

PB is judge, jury and executioner, and I cannot believe anyone would be able to keep a straight face and say that that is fair, Even, or Balanced. In fact it scares me that people can justify a system that has been proven flawed many times and has that kind of control over them, that I have to suffer such a stupid product due to their ignorance.