What do you folks think?

[2nd Ranger]

While we're looking at alternate viewpoints;

I find it interesting that in all videos like this, including the one in the link and the one just below it on that page, the 'victim' always provides us with a running commentary of what is going on. "I was leaving this place, you stopped me, you are abusing your power"; "You are physically forcing me out of my car".

Then, inevitably, "You are violating my constitutional rights"; "This is your Patriot Act."

[FA sear]

But ......... again .. getting beat down, getting dragged out, ok ... getting multiple tazer shots etc like in that clip for not showing ID and not moving when I still fail to see no matter how you swing it 3 officers can move 1 person without it / without that many times over and over (a student not a grown man), thoughts on that part of it?

So you would be okay seeing this kid being beaten down, but you have a problem with seeing him tazed? I'm sorry, but that just does not make sense to me.

Also, you say this guy is just a student and not a grown man? Calius, I'm not sure where you get this idea, but a college student is pretty much a grown man. If this was some 15 or 16yo high school kid, then heck, I would just pick him up like a rag doll and toss him out, but by college most guys are pretty much full grown. Notice the huge difference in high school vs college football players (American football)? The difference between college and pro is not as great as the difference between high school and college. Notice how much of a difference there is between freshmen and seniors in high school, but in college it is not as easy to tell the difference?

@xG5kdo

You should get the details from NYR's post on the previous page. It was NOT a situation where big brother was infringing on this "poor kid's" rights. It was SCHOOL policy that required everyone who was in the library past 11pm to have a valid ID. This kid first resisted campus security, and then the police were called in.

Edited November 21, 2006 by jchung

[TRC]

Don't know about UCLA case but other 2 cases on the referenced page were staged. How many housewives do you know that carry a tape recorder for taping traffic stops?(listen to tape-she admits to taping contact). You are also required to show driver's license if driving a motor vehicle. As for Mrs Davis, I live in the Denver area, she had been told on previous occasions by Federal guards that an ID was needed to enter upon a Federal facility, she purposely forced her situation. It didn't just happen out of the blue. As for UCLA student, refusal to obey a lawful order, refusal to obey campus rules--you get what you ask for--sure looked staged but I lack all the facts.

Oh well, time to go get bar code in my wrist scanned.

[calius]

So you would be okay seeing this kid being beaten down, but you have a problem with seeing him tazed? I'm sorry, but that just does not make sense to me.

No you read it wrong, I was actualy saying "But ......... again .. getting beat down, getting dragged out, ok ... getting multiple tazer " ... when I say "ok" ... that was me skimming through scenarios and then saying "ok" ... not "its ok" but .. "right, ok ref your view on that, but ...." thats what I meant. I do tend to type as I speak and that doesnt translate well on occasion, sorry about that.

Also dont want to seem picky but you justifying his size you still refer to it as a "kid" ... my reference is a "kid" = not a full grown man, my mix up.

Im still finding it increasingly odd that so far the majority have found something to look into ref the student / his size / whether he could or couldnt be moved / if he was bad / if there was something more to it / that "some" things are staged / the whole scenario about showing your ID / All info ref procedures to behaviour ......... but ... I still dont see much at all about my question from the start :

Did he deserve it? I mean ... that many taser shots, that much effort spent tazering him? As much as you all have justified reasons within this situation (points taken and noted), could you honestly hold to that and be fine if this was happening in a room your were sat and simply accept it?

Or do most agree that if thats your attitude and you dont budge then 50,000 volts over and over is a solution?

Oh well, time to go get bar code in my wrist scanned.

... and where does that fit in exactly? PS: check out Verichip if you want some light reading, I wouldnt get too comfortable .. this bit is off topic but what the hell.

[dickie]

I think the people who have a gripe about this, and I might be one of them, don't disagree that the kid had broken the policy, and that is how the police deal with offences like that. So as far as I'm concerned, they did the right thing. They did what they were trained to do. The kid should have had his ID, he didn't and should simply have left, so the police followed logical and pretty fair procedures (assuming that they followed them that is, we didn't see that part of the vid ), it really is simple as.

But, at the end of the day, a college student was subjected to 50,000 volts repeatedly for what is pretty much a very minor misdemeanor. However if you're going to have blanket procedures for all situations - which lets face it, does have it's benefits - things like this will happen.

To make sure no-one takes what I'm saying the wrong way -

The kid should have co-operated and the whole thing was his fault.

The police did the right thing.

-But -

ANYONE repeatedly being subjected to 50,000 volts is never a 'good' outcome and it really should have been avoided.

And that is all I am going to say the matter.

[pz3]

Lets look at it as police rights.

Do the police have the right to try and not wrestle him to the ground and try to control him without risking injury?

Unless you know a couple cops you probly dont think of this much but wrestling suspects to the grounds cause lots of injuries. From pulled tendents, slipped discs, broken bones etc...

and then trying to pull a suspect up without the right equipment can be bad aswell without the proper gear.

My opinion. This kid could cooperate or take 50,000 volts untill he does. I wouldnt disagree.

IMO I see the taser as a much more effective way of getting the suspect to coperate.

Oh not to mention. If campus police asked him to leave and didnt he would still trespassing. The cops found him in the area still they have every right to arrest him on the spot. Although I dont think that was the cops intentions. They just wanted to probly confirm the individuals identity then escort him out of the building and have a couple words with him.

[calius]

@ Dickie ... Thats pretty much the view I would come with. Initialy that clip did touch a nerve (dear me these puns are out of hand and not intended ) but yes when all is said and done the chap did himself no favours, after that point I wobble on how correct it was.

@Prozac

My opinion. This kid could cooperate or take 50,000 volts untill he does. I wouldnt disagree.

IMO I see the taser as a much more effective way of getting the suspect to coperate.

I agree to differ but then that was abvious from the start . I just find it worrying that later down the line this may become a common view and people getting used to the idea, how far will it be taken V's how much will it be used for lesser and lesser justified scenarios, time will tell I guess.

I think that the worring part is, we agree to tow the line when its looking your fault as a rule would suggest. In this case show ID or get out and nothing more would happen. Im just wondering when the initial rule is squeezed to being asked ID anywhere anyplace or else. That to me isnt what the U.S in my mind was about, or here in the UK (as whatever happens in the US ends up here).

So what if the Rules change even more .. would you still stick to your views or would you kind of think a bit more about it? (open question not a loaded one BTW).

[pz3]

That is my personal opinion. Im not trying to be polticially correct because that is all a bunch of BS.

The kid did not cooperate with any one and if he acted the way he sounded I wouldnt waste my time jumping on him or trying to pick his ass up. Overgrown kid just needs to learn some respect.

The original rule was Show ID or leave. He didnt do either.

As for showing ID. I hate IDs myself. Unless your breaking a law you should never have to show one and should never be subjected to random searches in my opinion unless you enter a private property where the owners call for such stuff. For this kid though im pretty sure he did break a law which is tresspassing.

As for the National ID cards coming out soon. RFID chips are low powered currently but pose a major security risk in the future. I wrote my congress man, senator and governor about it.

All of them support it but hopefully they listen. Im just sick of the DoD building a national ID database. I dont want to live in nazi germany and would rather risk beeing blow up by terrorists then living in such a way.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Prozac360

[calius]

That is my personal opinion. Im not trying to be polticially correct because that is all a bunch of BS.

Yeh cool I understand totaly.

As for the National ID cards coming out soon. RFID chips are low powered currently but pose a major security risk in the future. I wrote my congress man, senator and governor about it.

Fair play mate, I feel most should do something about this for deffinate http://www.spychips.com/ this book is realy good ref the industry and behind the scenes that's for sure (wobbles on the off topic element but posts as a responce to just this one little bit).

On topic again, im not entirely sure when how far thay have rolled out Tazers in the UK police force, anyone got any details at all? I know a friend who is in the force and they train with them, hmmm.

[pz3]

It is a big issues for privacy.

I Always wanted to wear a tracking collar *sarcasim*.

I dont think any one in america really understands what it is.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Prozac360

[Cpl Ledanek]

I found two cents while doing laundry.....

I wonder what would the reactions of other students be, if it was big old skool Irish street cops that came instead of campus security guard?

I wonder if what would happen if after all those tasing, a bomb should drop out of the trespassers clothing?

I wonder what would happen if all of the sudden there no longer campus rape after the trespasser was removed, only to be discovered that this trespasser actually molested/raped or was using campus computer to prey on other students?

I wonder what happened to the snitched that called the campus security? Did he/she felt bad/remorseful for what had happened to the trespasser?

Was the campus perv happy that he can finally download his porn now that everyone is looking the other way?

How many women thought for a second, maybe I should buy and protect myself with a taser?

...let me do a second load of laundry.

[calius]

Your questions lead the same place ... he could have been all of that so without ID in the campus get out thus solving the problem or a potential problem & the officiers did there job.

Thats been stated, but has any of those scenarios true to this situation?

Someone at a bustop being asked for ID and refusing could "potentialy" be any of what you describe, so would it be justified then also?

You can swing it multiple ways for sure, but when it comes down to the point of refusing to show ID and being tasered over & over (we know he was a stubborn ass and could have made it easier for himself) they could have dealt better with it.

The day that tasers take over from moving someone becuase if you dont show ID you must be hinding something and thus you could "potentialy" be *add a list of bad things here* I dont think is a great way to go & is a quick fix, but once you get to that stage, where do you draw the line?

[NoQuarter]

The day that tasers take over from moving someone becuase if you dont show ID you must be hinding something and thus you could "potentialy" be *add a list of bad things here* I dont think is a great way to go & is a quick fix, but once you get to that stage, where do you draw the line?

Personally I would draw the line with a laser gun.

Much ado about nothing. It is ungood.

Greetings from the police state

[FA sear]

Your questions lead the same place ... he could have been all of that so without ID in the campus get out thus solving the problem or a potential problem & the officiers did there job.

Thats been stated, but has any of those scenarios true to this situation?

Someone at a bustop being asked for ID and refusing could "potentialy" be any of what you describe, so would it be justified then also?

You can swing it multiple ways for sure, but when it comes down to the point of refusing to show ID and being tasered over & over (we know he was a stubborn ass and could have made it easier for himself) they could have dealt better with it.

The day that tasers take over from moving someone becuase if you dont show ID you must be hinding something and thus you could "potentialy" be *add a list of bad things here* I dont think is a great way to go & is a quick fix, but once you get to that stage, where do you draw the line?

There is a huge difference between a bus stop and a university library.

Think about it, you cannot even walk into a public school without an ID and a SPECIFIC purpose for being there, and it has pretty much always been that way. Public transportation and a school library are two very different places and cannot really be compared.

Having said that, I do agree that big brother is getting a little "too big", and although I do not agree with your comparison, I do agree with the point you are making.

[dickie]

I said I'd leave this thread be, but I'm breaking that rule after I heard the news on the radio at work, I can't find a link to the story anywhere on the net, so here's a brief run down:

Basically, in the UK, police are going to start profiling people, then those who show signs that they are about to commit a crime (such as rape or murder) will be monitored until the police feel the crime is imminent, at which point they will arrest you.

Now, at first I thought that this would be for say, people who have a previous record of such things, in which case it might be justified. But upon listening to the story more closely (it was repearted throughout the day), it turns out that this applies to everyone. This does scare me, the fact I can be arrested for a crime I haven't committed and will never commit. Not only this, but if they decide that I am a risk, they can 'monitor' me, which I personally take to be an invasion of my privacy and a limit on my freedom.

I used to joke back when I worked nights at a supermarket that I lived like a stereotypical serial killer - namely I worked nights in a supermarket, lived in my parents attic and have a avid interest in SciFi and PC games! Now, that was a joke, but suppose someone noticed I lived like that, and thinks "That's a bit odd..." and hands it on the the police, who decide that they agree (after all, it fits in with the patterns of behaviour etc), next minute I'll be 'monitored' by PC Plod everywhere I go. How is that right?

This is genuinely scary and I tell you one thing for sure, I already have no great love for this country or it's government, and if they start bringing things like this in then thats it, I'm offski.

Any thoughts on this people?

[RAbbi_74]

My thoughts, dickie: when done with the military, I'm also done with the USA. More my disgust with the general population, but anyhoo...

'Nuff said...

After watching this video, I'm actually VERY pleased that taser guns exist and are in the hands of the police. prozac made a good point, and I'd like to go a step or two further with it.

Let's say there were no taser guns out there. What then? Those policemen would have been left with some other options:

1.) str8 wrestle the dude, possibly leading to injuries or a battle royale

2.) pepper spray/Mace, possibly in the mix getting in the eyes/ears/nose/throat of a bystander... can you ssay LAWSUIT, modern Amerika?

3.) club/nitestik, but THOSE are the reason tasers are popular now- electricity rarely bre4aks bones, bruises internal organs or causes brain damage... think Rodney King

4.) sidearm, in which case the kid would have been hospitalized or killed, and the opportunity for bystanders to get hurt by ricochet would be substantial in that library.

Taser was the right call. Little or no permanent injury, if any real injury at all. Scarce chance of anyone but the intended target being incapacitated by taser. GREATLY impacts the target's ability to further resist arrest (though the inability to resist, as we saw, can itself be construed as resistance). Taser is the PERFECT answer to that situation. (Disclaimer: no police were harmed in the making of this film)

Was the use of that taser excessive? While none of us was in the shoes of one of those policemen, I'll agree it SEEMS the shock-getup-shock cycle went on a bit longer than was necessary.

Interesting (also what cpl.ledanek pointed out, for which I want to marry his sister) how the kid was shouting about the 'Patriot Act' (which isn't at all patriotic, but that's O/T). This incident hadn't a damned thing to do with that piece of federal legislature. NOTHING! It was, as repeatedly mentioned in this thread, a matter of the police being asked to assist campus security in enforcing a school policy.

Bottom line: AUTHORITY IS A NECESSITY OF SOCIETY.

And this kid got what he asked for...

[Zeko]

What if this guy had a heart problems and had a pacemaker? What would happened after couple shocks with 50.000 volts? Death?

What would happened than?

Sorry but IMHO it was a bad reaction to whole situation...

[NYR_32]

What if they tackled him and he hit his head on something? What if they maced him and he has some kind of serious allergic reaction? What if they used a bean bag round and hit him in the chest and his heart stopped? What if the police had used a PR24 and broke a few bones because he has a brittle bone disorder? (The last two I doubt anyone would think of using is this specific situation, but I just threw them out there)

Anyway you slice it there is always a chance of serious physical injury when police are forced to use more aggressive tactics to deal with non-compliant individuals. No matter what, the police are going to be critized for the method(s) they employed.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions, their own health and their own lives. If I know I had a serious medical condition I'm damned sure not going to resist and escalate the encounter. It isn't the police officiers job to know I have this or that wrong with me, he's just trying to make it home in one piece after his/her tour. By utilizing hands off tactics they are ensuring that, you would think the individuals on the other end would be thinking about their health as well.

Hell, if NYPD ESU kicked down my front door right now, I'm hitting the deck with my arms outstretched and palms up. I'd let them do what do what they have to do, I may not like it, but I'm not going to put myself at risk. I'll sort out the vaildity of their actions afterwords, not during. People need to assume responsibility for their actions, and think of the consequences before they act. Plain and simple.

[FA sear]

Well said NYR.

I am all for the protection of the rights of an individual, but sometimes I think people go too far with this theme.

[Wille]

Well said NYR.

I am all for the protection of the rights of an individual, but sometimes I think people go too far with this theme.

you can go too far with the issue of civil rights?

id rather take a beating than show my id if I havent done anything wrong(in theory ofcourse, you know never know how youll react with a swat team staring down on you;)

I even refuse to show my ticket to subway guards when asked. The reason I payed for the ticket is so that I WONT get hassled.if they are having problems with freeloaders, build more secure gates to actually go down into the subway.

ofcourse, this situation is quite troublesome since they have to do SOMETHING, you can only come so far with conversation when someone refuse to cooperate if its clear that they have done something wrong(in this case trespassing as far as I understand) but there must be other ways than violence(electrical or otherwise). perhaps tickling is the way to go?

[FA sear]

Well said NYR.

I am all for the protection of the rights of an individual, but sometimes I think people go too far with this theme.

you can go too far with the issue of civil rights?

Let us take a look at this situation yet ONE MORE TIME. It was the policy of the SCHOOL that required possession of a valid ID after 11pm, so where are your civil rights being violated here by the police? If you don't like the policy of the school, then go somewhere else, nobody is forcing anyone to attend a particular school. I really don't see what the big issue is here about the police coming in. First the CAMPUS security was not able to remove this student, so the police were being called into a situation that was already active, they are not the ones who created the situation in the first place.

[dickie]

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you there...

The thing is that no matter what they use to 'resolve' a situation, be it a tazer, a batton, a tickly feather, sweets or baseball bats, if they have to resort to using them, then lessons can be learned from that situation, so that maybe next time, they don't have to.

That would be the best way to look at it methinks, that in an ideal world he should have gone on his way, but this isn't an ideal world, and you can ALWAYS learn something each time you deal with a situation like this. At the very least, if (unfortunately) something similar happens again, they can use this as an example along the lines of "Co-operate, or we'll have to remove you...and this is how we will do it."?

Either way, the police have a tough job and have to make tough calls, but it's still sad that anyone in any civilised country (mine included, but I use the world 'civilised' here very loosely) should be subjected to something so barbaric.

Why can't we all just feel the lurve and get along dudes?!

[calius]

@Dickie ... there certainly is an air of Minority Report in the wings. Funny as that film was based on not yet released technology and approaches .

@Rabbi

Bottom line: AUTHORITY IS A NECESSITY OF SOCIETY.

And this kid got what he asked for...

Its a necessity until itself isnt policed as well as we are, and currently I see an imbalance. Also Id say the "kid" could of got what he asked for in that given situation once (tazered) and then removed by the usual means.

I really don't see what the big issue is here about the police coming in.

This threads not about the police shouldnt get involved, or that the kid wasnt "that bad" so " leave him alone authority! " .. its about how far you use a tazer at arms length without doing the most obvious thing after standing and repeating the process, getting no place apart from having some taser fun and still not doing much to move a person on a simple basis of refusing ID.

One thing from that clip ... how far did they get removing him while tasering ... not far ... so, did it work if your objective was to move that person from the building? .. No it didnt in this case, so that was worth it. If he had a gun, well basicly all the nasty senarios listed things as put by a few here .. justified to put a madman out of action ... a mouthy school "kid" ... I think not. Its tarring every situation with the same brush that you have to be worried for.

One day it might be you caught out, or mistaken ID, wrong place wrong time, something innocent on your part and you know this so you question it and then you could be treated the same, would you like bystanders to have the same view about you? If things are treated the same for every situation it makes this much more relevant and I would say keep you eyes wide open.

Why can't we all just feel the lurve and get along dudes?!

LOL .... Group Tasers everyone .... oops, sorry .... Hugs

A couple of things that made me laugh here (on a lighter note)

Personally I would draw the line with a laser gun.

be it a tazer, a batton, a tickly feather

There is a huge difference between a bus stop and a university library.

The last one is gold dust, sorry jchung .. I know your point and this is taking it out of context, but that as a quote ... did infact make me laugh.

[FA sear]

There is a huge difference between a bus stop and a university library.

The last one is gold dust, sorry jchung .. I know your point and this is taking it out of context, but that as a quote ... did infact make me laugh.

Well, as long as you were entertained.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd prefer gold ingots thank you.

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you there...

Well, I was quoted, and a question was presented, so I answered. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Edited November 29, 2006 by jchung

[calius]

Call for Taser guns to be given to all Scottish police

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnew...tish_police.php

Posted here as it seemed on topic (tasers) .. watch out Rocky & dont skulk about in library's too often

Rolling out at a police station near you (Yipee ). Lets just hope they are more responsible than anything like that other event.