Thanks GRIN

[jsonedecker]

Thanks for the correction...But, in an attempt to correct you, didn't you do Let Down, I.E. Lock down? Care to share on that one???

Nope, we did not "do" the game RSE did. I did some MP level design work for LockDown and had nothing to do with the game itself. As you can see on our site, we did the classic remakes and also upgraded one of the original PS2 levels.

-John

[semperfi_bohica]

I should have guessed that, as if you had "created the game", LockDown, as a former RSE veteran, the game would have been successful no doubt!

Are you working a on FPS currently? As you can see, there is ample market share and not too much in the way of product for a FPS with a strong MP (tvt) side.

Edited June 24, 2006 by semperfi_bohica

[MikSnoopy]

I read this:

"I'm not exactly sure what is 'done' anymore"

And it was a slap in the face.

I'm not exactly sure what I would consider "Done" anymore either.

I think, I belive, I would consider a game "Done" if I didn't encounter -any- bugs in it what-so-ever.

But then agian, that has nothing to say what kind of content will be in the game, or what kind of effects it will have - or even what kind of quality it will have.

[ruggbutt]

If GRAW was an exact clone of [GR], I wouldn't be here right now. I HATE [GR].

You're in the minority. In fact, I believe that by some of the decisions that GRIN made with they game they were listening to people like you who aren't fans of the original. That's nothing personal on you btw.

Thanks for your input John. I'm glad that there are some that are in the industry that see how poorly the followup is related to the original. At this stage of the game I'm convinced that UBI just doesn't give a care about anything PC. It looks to me like the release of GRAW was to placate us while UBI made a few bucks. We'll see if GRIN can pull off the fixes this game needs to make it more than a flash in the pan. I'm trying hard to be optimistic but alot of the people in the part of the gaming community I belong to aren't convinced. Time will tell I suppose.

[jsonedecker]

I read this:

"I'm not exactly sure what is 'done' anymore"

And it was a slap in the face.

A slap in the face? To who?

My comment was global to the entire game business these days, not to a specific game.

-John

[MikSnoopy]

To me, to wake me up.

It's like

"Woah"

Big revalation.

[jsonedecker]

To me, to wake me up.

It's like

"Woah"

Big revalation.

Ahhhhh.

Most consumers don't really have a grasp of how this industry works past the "they make it and I buy it" process, let alone the Publisher/Developer interaction.

Just like I have absolutely no idea of how the auto indusrty works past the "they make it I buy it" process.

-John

[Sup]

I should have guessed that, as if you had "created the game", LockDown, as a former RSE veteran, the game would have been successful no doubt

Considering RSE made it (from the console version with limited time, to my memory), I'm not sure what you're getting at.

jsonedecker, to my memory, is a level designer. Surely a talented and obviously knowledgeable individual, but (to my knowledge) not one of the key decision makers on the Clancy games you adore. (I could be horribly wrong, and mean no disrespect or offense either way.)

[Colin]

Jeez Colin. I know you are good buds with the GRIN guys but I do believe your judgement is clouded by that fact.

My Dealings with any member of Grin is and always has been on behalf of this community, friendship does not come into it.

I know it is ultimately Ubi's repsonsibility, but it is GRIN's responsibility to deliver a viable product to Ubi in the first place. I know for a fact what state things were in back in November last year and Ubi was not the ones developing the game. I would say things were squarely on GRIN's shoulder's at that point.

I have watched Ubisoft reps from the UK Listen, watch and monitor closely everything Grin has done over the last 2 years.

This includes All Development Aspects/Public awarness/statments all work ongoing and finished ends up gets tested and scrutinised by Ubisoft at every step, and completion date.

The Game were given in June was monitored/tested/retested/publisied/and released by Ubisoft.

And you are telling me Grin has to share the blame, I dont think so.

Ubisoft dictates Grin does the job its told to. Thats the way it was and is.

Im in a possition on the forum where my possition is not influenced by Ubisoft so I can pretty much tell the truth the way it actually is.

Most people here know by now where Ubisoft stand with the future of Ghost Recon, its not with this community or PC gamers.

It will be however with the Grin Development Team who visit and help people out on these forums every day of the week.

It will be the modders that work on these forums.

And the staff here that support the Team and the game in its past glory and its future.

Ubisoft made one large mistake bringing out a half finished game, they forgot about the people that deveolped it and the forum members here, because this is where the game will be finished, and a lot more to add.

[MikSnoopy]

To me, to wake me up.

It's like

"Woah"

Big revalation.

Ahhhhh.

Most consumers don't really have a grasp of how this industry works past the "they make it and I buy it" process, let alone the Publisher/Developer interaction.

Just like I have absolutely no idea of how the auto indusrty works past the "they make it I buy it" process.

-John

I work in the auto industry (repair, specificaly), and I've done alot of development on PC's.

I cannot say I've seen all on both ends, but I can grasp it if you talk sense. And "Done" is "Done" kinda makes sense to me.

[jsonedecker]

Considering RSE made it (from the console version with limited time, to my memory), I'm not sure what you're getting at.

jsonedecker, to my memory, is a level designer. Surely a talented and obviously knowledgeable individual, but (to my knowledge) not one of the key decision makers on the Clancy games you adore. (I could be horribly wrong, and mean no disrespect or offense either way.)

Nope, you are correct. I have absolutely no involvment in the design or planning of any RES/Ubi game since leaving RSE in 2003. They are extremely talented and more than capable of carrying thier own franchises.

I have contracted some level design for them, that is all.

-John

[jsonedecker]

Jeez Colin. I know you are good buds with the GRIN guys but I do believe your judgement is clouded by that fact.

My Dealings with any member of Grin is and always has been on behalf of this community, friendship does not come into it.

I know it is ultimately Ubi's repsonsibility, but it is GRIN's responsibility to deliver a viable product to Ubi in the first place. I know for a fact what state things were in back in November last year and Ubi was not the ones developing the game. I would say things were squarely on GRIN's shoulder's at that point.

I have watched Ubisoft reps from the UK Listen, watch and monitor closely everything Grin has done over the last 2 years.

This includes All Development Aspects/Public awarness/statments all work ongoing and finished ends up gets tested and scrutinised by Ubisoft at every step, and completion date.

The Game were given in June was monitored/tested/retested/publisied/and released by Ubisoft.

And you are telling me Grin has to share the blame, I dont think so.

Ubisoft dictates Grin does the job its told to. Thats the way it was and is.

Im in a possition on the forum where my possition is not influenced by Ubisoft so I can pretty much tell the truth the way it actually is.

Most people here know by now where Ubisoft stand with the future of Ghost Recon, its not with this community or PC gamers.

It will be however with the Grin Development Team who visit and help people out on these forums every day of the week.

It will be the modders that work on these forums.

And the staff here that support the Team and the game in its past glory and its future.

Ubisoft made one large mistake bringing out a half finished game, they forgot about the people that deveolped it and the forum members here, because this is where the game will be finished, and a lot more to add.

So, what you are then is a purely objective representitive of GR.net and the GR community as a whole that is on site at the GRIN offices. Wow, good for you.

If you read my posts, I do not disagree that Ubi shares the blame. I have said it before and will say it again....... 2 parties developed this game and both share the responsibility. Period.

I can definately tell that you are not influenced by Ubi, your position on here or not. I can also tell that you are very much influenced by GRIN. You have trumpeted thier horn all along while blatantly trying to deflect ALL the blame over to Ubi. GRIN did not come out of this smelling like a rose and niether does Ubi. Buck up and let the boys over at GRIN stand tall and take thier licks.

Do most people know where Ubi stands with GR? I seriously doubt it. I doubt even Ubi does at this point. They have had some rough couple of years and I am sure they will adjust. You can't turn a corporation on a dime. Once a product cycle starts it's is extremely hard to change.

I am not an Ubi fanboy by any strecth of the imagination, but I do not like to stand by and watch people try to deflect blame for something they are partially responsible for and attempt to skate away while blaming everyone else.

There is no grand conspiracy going on to ruin GR or the PC. Some decisions were made that may or may not have been right. Releasing GR:AW when it was was most likely one fo them, but GRIN developed it plain and simple and unless UBI reps were sitting at each one of thier desks moving thier hands and making every decision for them, they are partially responsible.

Did Ubi make them use thier tech? Don't know, but if they did I am sure it was under the thought that it could hold up to the design. Colin, get off your high horse, stop shielding these guys and let's all move on. I'm sure that they are bound by what they can say themselves and that's fine. I have been in that boat myself and it's a hard pill to swallow. But, stop defending an undefendable position. No one else is backing you up, but possibly those that are hiding behind you.

I have no idea how far this product is going to go, but at some point Ubi, as a business, will need to decide if continued development dollars are worth it or not. I guess only time will tell.

-John

[Sup]

The Game were given in June was monitored/tested/retested/publisied/and released by Ubisoft.

And you are telling me Grin has to share the blame, I dont think so.

Ubisoft dictates Grin does the job its told to. Thats the way it was and is.

I mean no disrespect, but I believe you lack some understanding of exactly how the developer/publisher relationship works. I certainly don't know everything myself, but in the end it's still Grin making the game. If there's a flaw in it, they're at least partially to blame.

[jsonedecker]

I'll also be the first to add that I have been part of developing my fair share of crap along the way, everyone in this industry has, and I have never shied away from it.

My advice, Colin, is be careful what horse you decide to ride as it may just be higher than you can handle. High horses tend to get knocked down a peg or two once they run around a little bit.

Let the GRIN boys defend themselves if they want to.

I truely hope GR:AW PC becomes something, but until those makign it truely understand what they are trying to make, who they are making it for and can start to appreciate where thier current meal ticket came from, they will just be a flash in the pan.

The Ghost Recon franchise is not dead, it's just gotten a little lost along the way.

John out......

[=WO=TekHousE]

I'll also be the first to add that I have been part of developing my fair share of crap along the way, everyone in this industry has, and I have never shied away from it.

My advice, Colin, is be careful what horse you decide to ride as it may just be higher than you can handle. High horses tend to get knocked down a peg or two once they run around a little bit.

Let the GRIN boys defend themselves if they want to.

I truely hope GR:AW PC becomes something, but until those makign it truely understand what they are trying to make, who they are making it for and can start to appreciate where thier current meal ticket came from, they will just be a flash in the pan.

The Ghost Recon franchise is not dead, it's just gotten a little lost along the way.

John out......

Not dead but in need of some quick CPR..

I think a lot of the 'flack' thrown at UBI is because UBI do nto frequent the forums like grin do..So guys take a pot shot at the big guy thinking grin had their hand forced..That is not the case. Both parties as you say John are responsible. In my opinion grin have much to answer for and much to gain by developing the game into what we all expected it to be when it was first released.

Someone mentioned the car industry (where in my past I have worked as a Quality Control Manager for a small company called GM). Product development is different in all companies but at least there our consumers had a really good idea of what to expect. Unfortunately that is not the case in the game industry. We can expct, but we also are continuously let down by software that simply does not deliver. I know that in the vehicle industry you get recalls, but these are rare nowadays. And I cannot remember the last time I bought a 50,000 euro car that was only partially complete and basically undriveable until a 'patch' was released for it.. So does it all come down to what we are spending??

Edited June 25, 2006 by =WO=TekHousE

[jsonedecker]

Maybe GRIN will provide that needed CPR, I don't know. Maybe it will come in the form of GR4, if there is one... who knows. Will it ever be [GR] with flashy graphics? I seriously doubt it, but that doesn't mean there won't be a true successor out there.

I'd like to clarify my position as well. I have no hard feelings or disrespect for GRIN other than I do not believe they have carried themselves in the manner in which I feel someone in thier position should. Like it or not guys, Colin has decided to take it upon himself to blindly defend you, which most likely will not turn out the way he intends. I also know full well that publishers force developers to do things they don't want to every day. With that, it is still the devloper's obligation to provide the publisher with the best product they can and be forthright and honest about what they are offering. Simply handing something off to the publisher to test doesn't cut it. That handoff needs to be solid and functional. Simply saying "well it's the publisher's responsibilty to test our stuff so we don't need to be diligant about doing it correctly" (Colin's words, not GRIN's) is pure nonesense and a sure fire way to get yourself back to the minor leagues.

Maybe GRIN thought too highly of themselves, maybe not. But ones thing is for sure, they could not carry out the mission given whether it be by Ubi's hand or by thier own inexperience scheduling and budgeting a title of this magnitude.

I have been on all sides, developer, publisher, contractor and even self funded developer/studio owner. The best thing a developer can do is know thier limitations both in technology as well as personel and work within those limitations. Getting the "brass ring", in this case a GR project, is a great goal, just make sure you are able to carry out that mission when you choose to accept it. Same for publishers..... They need to make sure they make the proper choices on thier end.

[smokin]

I want to first say that all things considered, GRIN did a great job. OK, now with that out of the way, ......

Im tired of the "blame it on UBI" mentality. Its a cring shame to see gamers defend developers this way. I dont know the industry, I dont know the process, I dont know the polotics, but I do know it is a creative process and at the end of that process, the devs sign thier names to the credits.

So what does it mean when someone signs thier name on credits after a creative process, that means I dont give a rats ass if UBI or "they" made a deadline cause the devs signed thier names for credits, I dont care if "they" drew the game's outline, the devs signed thier names for credits, doesnt matter how much was spent, the devs signed thier names for credits!

When anyone signs thier name, they are calling it thiers. When the credits roll, and they list the guys for sound, it says "Desmon" (i asume) not UBI. Yeah Im sure the guy prob wishes he had more time, more of a budget, better this or that, but the work is HIS. The sound was awsome, but you wont see me saying "Thx UBI for the great sound", so why does it make sense to say, "Damn ubi, sound sucks and its your fualt!" (it doesnt suck BTW Des). Gamers seem to be giving developers alot of slack these days and opting to just blame it on publishers. While yes I have no doubt that UBI is a great influnce to what we get, there is no bigger influence to the end product than the Dev guy actually directing the teams, and there is even a bigger influence from the dept heads taking direction, and the most influence come from the lil underlings actually creating the game.

Every creative process is influenced one way or another by outside forces, and while it should be considered, that should NEVER be an excuse for what comes out, EVER. The process on how a team or indavidual deals with those influences seperates the good from the bad and even the great. OK, off soap box.

[KRP 56]

The Ghost Recon franchise is not dead, it's just gotten a little lost along the way.

A little lost is putting it mildly as it has very little of what made GR great other than the name.

[Cuchillo*]

POSTED by AGENT SMITH in UBI FORUMS :

POSTED by AGENT SNITH in UBI FORUMS.

Posted Fri June 23 2006 13:53

Hard to believe (although not if you have played GRAW) but SoF2 Demo gets more players than GRAW. If that isn't the big stamp of rejection on this horrible mess called GRAW then I don't know what is.

One of the bigger MP PC franchises reduced to complete and utter obscurity by a development studio (Grin) that is so obviously incompetent and clueless as to be laughable. Can't say I hold Ubi responsible for the code on the disc as I think publishers are not responsible in that way but their choice of Grin and the way the PC version got 'developed' (or didn't as the case seems to be) makes me fault them as well.

No more Ubi games for me, period.

There are many sources for player counts, below is just one: http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/ Since release I have yet to see GRAW with enough players showing in the game browser to ever make the lowest spot on that list, or many other.

AMD 64 FX-60, K8N Neo4, nF4 U, 2G Mushkin XP3200 DDR400, PhysX, 4 WD Raptor 10k RPM S-ATA, Promise SuperTrak EX8350 Array, OCZ 520W PS, ATI x1900XTX (512M), Audigy2 ZS, 24" WS

Cheers

p.s. Sup Prozac hows da school doing?

Edited June 25, 2006 by Cuchillo*

[Wille]

hey,

you say that the "grin guys" should defend themselves and not let Colin do it for us.

the reason I havent replied here earlier than this is because I dont see that I have anything to defend.

its however quite interesting that you seem to know so much about Grins contract deals, management ,budgeting and planning without ever setting your foot or talking to anyone here.

amazing.

[Agent Smith]

POSTED by AGENT SMITH in UBI FORUMS :

POSTED by AGENT SNITH in UBI FORUMS.

Posted Fri June 23 2006 13:53

Hard to believe (although not if you have played GRAW) but SoF2 Demo gets more players than GRAW. If that isn't the big stamp of rejection on this horrible mess called GRAW then I don't know what is.

One of the bigger MP PC franchises reduced to complete and utter obscurity by a development studio (Grin) that is so obviously incompetent and clueless as to be laughable. Can't say I hold Ubi responsible for the code on the disc as I think publishers are not responsible in that way but their choice of Grin and the way the PC version got 'developed' (or didn't as the case seems to be) makes me fault them as well.

No more Ubi games for me, period.

There are many sources for player counts, below is just one: http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/ Since release I have yet to see GRAW with enough players showing in the game browser to ever make the lowest spot on that list, or many other.

AMD 64 FX-60, K8N Neo4, nF4 U, 2G Mushkin XP3200 DDR400, PhysX, 4 WD Raptor 10k RPM S-ATA, Promise SuperTrak EX8350 Array, OCZ 520W PS, ATI x1900XTX (512M), Audigy2 ZS, 24" WS

Cheers

Ok, if anyone is wondering if that is me, IT IS NOT ME. I don't go on the UBI forums. They suck badly, and are filled with whiners.

[Wille]

POSTED by AGENT SMITH in UBI FORUMS :

POSTED by AGENT SNITH in UBI FORUMS.

Posted Fri June 23 2006 13:53

Hard to believe (although not if you have played GRAW) but SoF2 Demo gets more players than GRAW. If that isn't the big stamp of rejection on this horrible mess called GRAW then I don't know what is.

One of the bigger MP PC franchises reduced to complete and utter obscurity by a development studio (Grin) that is so obviously incompetent and clueless as to be laughable. Can't say I hold Ubi responsible for the code on the disc as I think publishers are not responsible in that way but their choice of Grin and the way the PC version got 'developed' (or didn't as the case seems to be) makes me fault them as well.

No more Ubi games for me, period.

There are many sources for player counts, below is just one: http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/ Since release I have yet to see GRAW with enough players showing in the game browser to ever make the lowest spot on that list, or many other.

AMD 64 FX-60, K8N Neo4, nF4 U, 2G Mushkin XP3200 DDR400, PhysX, 4 WD Raptor 10k RPM S-ATA, Promise SuperTrak EX8350 Array, OCZ 520W PS, ATI x1900XTX (512M), Audigy2 ZS, 24" WS

Cheers

Ok, if anyone is wondering if that is me, IT IS NOT ME. I don't go on the UBI forums. They suck badly, and are filled with whiners.

haha, I was actually wondering about that...I thought "why the hell is he whining about never bying an ubi game again AND mod graw at the same time"

good to know its not you

[jsonedecker]

hey,

you say that the "grin guys" should defend themselves and not let Colin do it for us.

the reason I havent replied here earlier than this is because I dont see that I have anything to defend.

its however quite interesting that you seem to know so much about Grins contract deals, management ,budgeting and planning without ever setting your foot or talking to anyone here.

amazing.

That's fine that you don't think you have anything to defend, that is your perception. But, I think some need to open thier eyes to the world around them to get the big picture.

Your right, I have never been to the office or your fine country for that matter, but I have been in this industry a long time and done many different things.... The least of which is to help make it posible for you to even be working on a franchise such as GR. I do know a lot about how Ubi works and I most certainly have a strong grasp on the Publisher/Developer relationship, from both perspectives.

I don't need to know the specifics of the contract to know that no matter what it says, the developer of a project is still responsible for the product they deliver to the publisher and ultimately to the public. Maybe my points are not clear for some reason, but this entire thread is about the fact that both the developer and publisher are responsible for a products success or failure and those that think GRIN has no responsibility to deliver are childishly niave.

Good luck in the future.

[Wille]

hey,

you say that the "grin guys" should defend themselves and not let Colin do it for us.

the reason I havent replied here earlier than this is because I dont see that I have anything to defend.

its however quite interesting that you seem to know so much about Grins contract deals, management ,budgeting and planning without ever setting your foot or talking to anyone here.

amazing.

That's fine that you don't think you have anything to defend, that is your perception. But, I think some need to open thier eyes to the world around them to get the big picture.

Your right, I have never been to the office or your fine country for that matter, but I have been in this industry a long time and done many different things.... The least of which is to help make it posible for you to even be working on a franchise such as GR. I do know a lot about how Ubi works and I most certainly have a strong grasp on the Publisher/Developer relationship, from both perspectives.

I don't need to know the specifics of the contract to know that no matter what it says, the developer of a project is still responsible for the product they deliver to the publisher and ultimately to the public. Maybe my points are not clear for some reason, but this entire thread is about the fact that both the developer and publisher are responsible for a products success or failure and those that think GRIN has no responsibility to deliver are childishly niave.

Good luck in the future.

POOOOFF!

[Skidmark]

hey,

you say that the "grin guys" should defend themselves and not let Colin do it for us.

the reason I havent replied here earlier than this is because I dont see that I have anything to defend.

its however quite interesting that you seem to know so much about Grins contract deals, management ,budgeting and planning without ever setting your foot or talking to anyone here.

amazing.

That's fine that you don't think you have anything to defend, that is your perception. But, I think some need to open thier eyes to the world around them to get the big picture.

Your right, I have never been to the office or your fine country for that matter, but I have been in this industry a long time and done many different things.... The least of which is to help make it posible for you to even be working on a franchise such as GR. I do know a lot about how Ubi works and I most certainly have a strong grasp on the Publisher/Developer relationship, from both perspectives.

I don't need to know the specifics of the contract to know that no matter what it says, the developer of a project is still responsible for the product they deliver to the publisher and ultimately to the public. Maybe my points are not clear for some reason, but this entire thread is about the fact that both the developer and publisher are responsible for a products success or failure and those that think GRIN has no responsibility to deliver are childishly niave.

Good luck in the future.

Im not saying that GRAW is perfect in any way but the fact remains that it was made in about 14 months from start to finish with extremely limited funds and manpower compared to the 360 version.

the "buggy or unfinished" state of the game has nothing to do with competence or will of the people working here, there are simply some things, and some decisions that we had no control over. like the human need to sleep atleast 3 hours a night and Ubis control of the project. and it feels a bit arrogant to come in and say "they should have done this or planned accordingly that" when you dont really know what went on along the way of the project)

being the industry veteran you are, you would know that terms, conditions and relationships with publishers is quite uniqe with every project and every new publisher you work with. and that the twitching, spazzing and sudden desicion-changing within the publisher are something you can _never_ account for.

Once again this just shows that UBI does not give a damn about the PC players, exactly how many developers and resources where available in comparison? Perhaps 4-6 for the PC compared to 30 + for the console kiddies, and then the end result is that we get a damn console port, and even then only half of it. Wheres the nicaraugua maps, wheres the multiple game modes, hell where is the thermal imaging for the sniper rifle. Let's face it people, we are at the bottom of the gaming food chain now, and it's pretty sad considering [GR] was origionally released on PC long before console, and we gave feedback to the developers on what was needed to make the game a showstopper. In essence we were the beta testers, and helped to make GR what it was, and this is the thanks we get. No offence to GRIN, but guys, did you even play [GR] and experience what made it such a great game to begin with ? Or did NUBI put down such guidelines as that it is not to in anyway resemble [GR] (thus tying your hands) ? Please don't take this post in the wrong context Grin, I appreciate what you guys are trying to repair, but I am not sure if it will be a case of "Too little too late", as newer games are on the horizon as we speak. GRAW just might be the final bell tolling for GR series on the PC.

Edited June 25, 2006 by }PW{ Payback