GRAW Physics

[WhiteKnight77]

I got the OK to go ahead and let you in on what GRAW will be using for physics. Ubi had wanted to make a big announcement apparently, but messed up somewhere and already posted what will be used in a round about way. As seen on this Ubi Q & A oage, GRAW is featuring the use of AGEIA PhysX techonolgy. Those who have an AGIEA PhysX PPU will see totally destructable enviornments. Grenade blasts will have millions of particles flying about and complete walls can be blown down.

Herein lies the problem with replays. As said, replays would need to record large amounts of data, but the other thing is, those who do not have a PhysX PPU will see something totally different as the game also includes Havok physics. I have dropped hints left and right without totally giving up what I actually knew, but say a player blows a wall completely down, a replay may only show a small hole being blown in the wall. NYR even touched upon what may be seen. A person taking cover behind a car that was blown over may appear to be out in the open to someone else and then someone other than challanger can be accused of cheating with a replay.

Gamers have wanted more and more destructable enviornments. Now you have them. Are you willing to give them up for a replay or demo? As of yet, GRIN hasn't detailed how it will stop cheaters and as said earlier, I woudl rather they keep that info close to the chest and maybe not allow cheaters to have cheats available on day one then the other way around.

[Rocky]

Of course, those fans who have been paying attention will already know this as Ubi already published this fact, and Colin has had it listed in his summary thread here for sometime. The original announcement as WK says was actually over a month ago at ubi here.

For those not sure what AGEIA physics is all about, we'll have a full article on the news page in a few hours.

[Sup]

It seems a bit early for fully destrucible enviornments and MP.

Especially with the (so far unavoidable, as far as I know) 'person taking cover behind a car that was blown over may appear to be out in the open to someone else'.

[Papa6]

Oh good one...I heard the physics processor should be available to the normal blokes like myself already or soon. it plugs into ones pci slot if my memory serves correctly.

But the physics is a good thing. so WK77, no more hiding for you.... we are gonna get chya!

[ruggbutt]

I doubt that full physics will work w/multiplayer at this time. Too much info is being sent, and if it's true that one guy can blow a complete wall while the other only sees a small hole will place m/p players on uneven terms.

It's difficult as all get out to sync everything to all clients w/out lagging the server.

[Papa6]

maybe in terms of those who do have the processor. But maybe WK can poney up some more info about that issue.

Added: But how many of us will pay for this processor? the company website even spilled the beans Here

damn I need to be more vigilant....This appears to be mostly software. But the processor would have advantages

Edited September 26, 2005 by Papa6

[harntrox]

Ubi makes no claims to support the hardware option, only the software baseline.

('woohoo multithreaded'. big deal.)

Had the hardware been designed into the server, both the replay and scalability issues would be eliminated.

Other developers have taken a different approach, and they are using the full features of the hardware as it was meant to be run on a dedicated server.

The beta physx cards are just now reaching dev's desks. It is only after the coders have had some serious time to play with the hardware that we will see the results in numerous 2006 titles. There will be a rush to get some stuff up at E3 in May, but this is a new frontier and i expect some time before we see the full force of hardware accelerated physics on not only clients, but (more important) dedicated servers as well.

Est about 6 months.

[Papa6]

So it's really just a software thing then? would hate to have to poney up money for a physics card.

[GreyHaired]

Here's some info about Asus' Agaeia card.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1817922,00.asp

[Rocky]

So it's really just a software thing then? would hate to have to poney up money for a physics card.

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It's easy to get confused, but right now I believe the the PC will have the actual hardware solution (the card) and the consoles will only be using the software SDK.

From what I was told, if a game uses the PhysX it will automatically recognize an add in board when installed and offload the calcs to it.

That's how it's been explained to me, but I understand there is a news release due soon to explain the full system as it applies to GR:AW.

[Crimson]

Added: But how many of us will pay for this processor?

If more games start using physics such as GR:AW, I will buy one.

[Rocky]

Added: But how many of us will pay for this processor?

If more games start using physics such as GR:AW, I will buy one.

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Even if it costs the same as a mid-high range graphics card?

[Dannik]

Even if it costs the same as a mid-high range graphics card?

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One difference is, unlike a video card, you shouldn't need to upgrade the hardware PhysX card for several years, as the card is designed to be easily upgraded in terms of features, via drivers.

[smokin]

Even if it costs the same as a mid-high range graphics card?

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One difference is, unlike a video card, you shouldn't need to upgrade the hardware PhysX card for several years, as the card is designed to be easily upgraded in terms of features, via drivers.

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Thats true, especially since we wont see the potential of the card for a LOOOOOONG time to come. Game devs wont be exploiting the power of the card until the majority of gamers have the thing, until then, we'll get a half ass taste of it and mostly see only what computers without the card can see.

From what ive seen, the power of the card is INCREDIBLE!!!

[[WOLF]Lizard]

2 questions and please someone provide a simple yes or no to each because i'm havin a hard time wrapping my head around this.

1.) Do I need one of these new physics cards to play GRAW when it's released?

2.) Do I need one of these new physics cards tp play with someone else who has one.

Thanks in advance for making it simple.

[Rocky]

Lizard,Sep 26 2005, 10:07 PM]

1.) Do I need one of these new physics cards to play GRAW when it's released?

2.) Do I need one of these new physics cards tp play with someone else who has one.

Thanks in advance for making it simple.

←

1. No.

2. No.

You're welcome

[Rocky]

Even if it costs the same as a mid-high range graphics card?

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One difference is, unlike a video card, you shouldn't need to upgrade the hardware PhysX card for several years, as the card is designed to be easily upgraded in terms of features, via drivers.

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Sounds good in theory. "Early adopters beware" might be a phrase to bear in mind though.

Don't mind me I'm just grumpy because I'll need a small lottery win before I get one.

[[WOLF]Lizard]

Thanks Rocky ...

[Crimson]

Added: But how many of us will pay for this processor?

If more games start using physics such as GR:AW, I will buy one.

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Even if it costs the same as a mid-high range graphics card?

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If they ever get to where they cost as much as the next generation video cards being released, something is very wrong. I would be willing to pay up to 225-250 dollars for one if it made games that much better. I care about graphics and what not just as much as I care about gameplay.

[harntrox]

the primary goal of physics is not eyecandy, but interraction btw as many objects as possible.

since the clients can only respond to what the server sends down the pipe, its all about whats going on on the server. if the server wasn't coded to support the hardware, theres no magic in the world that can patch that and the entire networking foundation down the road. whats done is done.

even worse, if the scale of the game is so small (only a few players) than the design itself may not be able to make use of the hardware, letting most of it collect cobwebs.

so in this new frontier of physx, im afraid it may be up to each server's admin to decide how scalable or not- the servers connection is to the clients. to the degree of simply disallowing non-accelerated players to connect.

which is prolly similar to how some games treat a 56k modem nowadays,

so in a roundabout way the physx card thing may remove 56k modems from the gaming world once and for all - definitely a good thing to scale-up the size of the conflict by not basing future game designs on the high-bar set by 1988 modem technology.

imo, if you install a physx card in a system with a 56k modem it should write 0's to your boot sector.

there is no question the physx card will find its niche - but i seriously doubt it will be a big client-side push in the near future. but dedicated servers - maybe very soon. it will be the buzz at E3 for sure.

[WhiteKnight77]

I want everyone to remeber that I am passing on the information that I was given as it was explained to me. GRAW will be using hardware accelerated physics and that was told to me by Bo himself and why at first it was removed from my report as Ubi had big plans to announce it, but kind of messed it up. Those that do not have a PhysX card will still have some physics, just that it will be using Havok physics instead.

[Papa6]

This is a possibility (i think), Nvidia or ATI just might get horney enough to snuggle up to this Physx system and implement it into a Graphiccard. If WK77 has the moves to get up close to those "booth babes" from the shows, then hell, anything is possible

But it can be done. adding some physX features to the GPU core could change the way we all have fun.

[harntrox]

if the game supports and is written to the usual 56k baseline (an xbox standard), i do not see how the server could send even 1% of the accelerated data to the clients.

'client side physics' may be accelerated, but not scalable, which is the problem caused by 56k. if you have 1000 points of light, 1 is on the client, the other 999 are on the server.

so what you have here is a nice gimmick - they'll use client-side physics for eye candy and establish that indeed they are accelerating something, but its about 1% of what could have been done had the game and server been designed around the hw early on.

obviously, as the hw has only been around for a few months this was not possible.

my point is- dont confuse client-side eye-candy with server-side physics distribution. they are apples and oranges. they are not the same thing. in a proper system, one feeds the other in a strict hierarchy. the fact that they accept non-scalable physics as part of their game design indicates that they did not have time to either design the game around nor code a physx accelerated dedicated server.

and then theres the glaringly obvious lack of any press release regarding physx hw ...

[Papa6]

But is it within the means of say Nvidia to incorporate pipelines for physx alone? say develop a 16 pipeline GPU core with 2 of those pipelines running the PhysX? Aside from the licensing alone....I'd have to say something will have to be done for REAL physX to be what you say should be.

[Snake@War]

I doubt multiplayer will use the PhyX system...

Good read w/ the report.