Preset Kit Selection Awareness Day

[MorphingJar]

Unlike GRAW1, Grin decided to make GRAW2 all about balance. The Weapon kits are balanced in a way that no specific kit is more powerful than the next. The none of the Demolitions kits have suppressed primary weapons. All of the primary weapons in the Assault Class have front-grips where applicable. Just about all of the Rifleman kits are blessed with a G18 when the primary weapon is silenced and a MP5SD when not. Theres not really much to Support and Sniper as their primary weapons are the kits themselves.

- Demolitions is pretty straight forward. Boom Your Dead

- Assault leans for Primary weapon Stability and Grenades

- Rifleman Kits lean more for accuracy with the Combat Sights and Suppressors. Another benefit of the Rifleman kits is that most of them also include the G18. Which is arguably the best close range weapon in the game.

- Support kits are there for Gun Spamming to keep heads down.

- Sniper Kits are there to pick off targets at long range

There is more than enough kits to choose from to enable you to get a good mix of weapons. But, as always, when you have that many kits, you start to get kits that are a little out of place.

The most out of place kits usually have to deal with the M8 and the MR-C. The M8 more so than the MR-C. For example, nearly every class that deals with these two weapons has a Combat sight on them. This fact is the same through all of the Assault, demolitions and rifleman kits.

Now lets get into the nitty-gritty shall we? Can someone explain to me why you would pick Rifleman 10 over assault 9? Anyone? Someone? You wouldn't. Rifleman 10 is inferior to Assault 9 in ever way imaginable. You still get the suppressed M8 Carbine with the combat sight. But you are stuck with an unsilenced MP5 and lets not forget the lack of grenades. Speaking of Combat sights, why is it that the M8 and the MR-C are the only weapons in the Assault Class and Demolitions class that get Combat Sights? Whats wrong with the Iron sights?

Quite frankly, I think that a slight redesign of the available kits is in order. I know for a fact that the reason behind the MR-C and the M8s having combat sights in the assault kits is because these weapons do not have the option of a front-grip. Well. What about giving them more ammunition? An extra clip or two would certainly offset the lack of that. Not to mention the fact that both weapons have inherently better stability than other weapons without the front grips. Demolitions 10 and 11 should not be there. The combat sight from Assault 9 and 2 should be removed. And the MK45 in Rifleman 4 should be replaced with a G18. (That was just silly). Also, Think about the possibility of perhaps adding a suppressor to Sniper 1 to give the kit at least SOME distinction between that and Sniper 2. Currently, there is none.

And remember folks. If we had the kit selection from GRAW1. Everyone would be running around with assault rifles with suppressors, Grenade launchers, and Hand Grenades as their only weapons. This is one of the primary reasons that GRAW1 was such a flop. Kudos to the GRIN team for an outstanding job, if not slightly mind boggling at times, at creating a very balanced kit selection system.

This has been another informative post brought to you by TeamHOT for Preset Kit Awareness Day

Edited July 30, 2007 by MorphingJar

[bangurdead]

hate to break it to ya, but this isn't an awareness day more like a reminder that we've been preaching about removal or making the kits an option.

personally I want the M416 scope/frontgrip no need for a silencer or grenade launcher as it packs quite a punch...

[FI_FlimFlam]

Balance with what the AI has in coop? What does this have to do with coop? Not much that I can tell. So why do we have to have kits?

[MorphingJar]

hate to break it to ya, but this isn't an awareness day more like a reminder that we've been preaching about removal or making the kits an option.

personally I want the M416 scope/frontgrip no need for a silencer or grenade launcher as it packs quite a punch...

Actually, if you have paid attention to my previous "Awareness" threads, this thread is exactly that. Just in a different context. The M99 thread was more of a bash depicting just how broken the M99 sniper rifle is. But it was an awareness all the same. There is a significantly larger portion of the GR.net community that knows just how overpowered the M99 is than just your usuall complaint of "The M99 is so stupid! Get rid of it!". On this point, there are quite a few players that question why the kits are set up the way they are and why GRIN decided not to implement the same kit selection system as GRAW1 MP. This thread attempts to explain The differences between the kits, the reasons behind why they were set up that way, and offers suggestions to GRIN on how to improve it.

Balance with what the AI has in coop? What does this have to do with coop? Not much that I can tell. So why do we have to have kits?

This thread has nothing to do with coop. The Kit selection in general is the main focus here.

[Cangaroo.TNT]

If you're going to have an "Awareness Day," then why not do it on something important, like prolapsed rectums?

PLEASE DON'T ABUSE YOUR ANUS.

This message has been brought to you by Team Hot.

[FI_FlimFlam]

Balance with what the AI has in coop? What does this have to do with coop? Not much that I can tell. So why do we have to have kits?

This thread has nothing to do with coop. The Kit selection in general is the main focus here.

Then I respectfully suggest you specify that in your thread title since it's a touchy topic for coop as well. Your title leaves it WIDE open for interpretation. There's alot of multiplayer this and multiplayer in different threads that and all people are talking about is adversarial gametypes when many of the things they are talking about bleed over into coop. Many of the suggestions are quite poor for coop and may not be wanted or to the detriment of it's gameplay. If GRIN were to take this thread as inclusive to all multiplayer gametypes then COOP players would be screwed.

I think it's VERY important to target your thread especially when you have not intention of including cooperative play yet the features you are speaking of are inclusive to it. As such I think it's quite valid to bring the coop perspective into the thread. Next time be more specific.

[sgt.hoot]

first of all WE DONT NEED KITS!!!!!! it needs to be like graw1 so u could pimp out ur gun to an unbeatable death machine

Edited July 30, 2007 by sgt.hoot

[Salden]

I haven't played any DM yet but in coop, I'd sure love to have the ability to save my favorite kit.

[ruggbutt]

PLEASE DON'T ABUSE YOUR ANUS.

This message has been brought to you by Team Hot.

I think it's irrelevant what lifestyle choices TeamHOT makes.

[{B:P:R}Joker]

hate to break it to ya, but this isn't an awareness day more like a reminder that we've been preaching about removal or making the kits an option.

personally I want the M416 scope/frontgrip no need for a silencer or grenade launcher as it packs quite a punch...

Actually, if you have paid attention to my previous "Awareness" threads, this thread is exactly that. Just in a different context.

surely that should of been enough to answer his post oh no you had to get the next bit in.

The M99 thread was more of a bash depicting just how broken the M99 sniper rifle is. But it was an awareness all the same. There is a significantly larger portion of the GR.net community that knows just how overpowered the M99 is than just your usuall complaint of "The M99 is so stupid! Get rid of it!". On this point, there are quite a few players that question why the kits are set up the way they are and why GRIN decided not to implement the same kit selection system as GRAW1 MP. This thread attempts to explain The differences between the kits, the reasons behind why they were set up that way, and offers suggestions to GRIN on how to improve it.

anyway back to op i cant see why they had to go and change how it worked in graw 1,yes they could of cut all the nades and gls down as necessary. but it seemed to work perfectly.

but hasnt there been a there before about kit selection and why have the put these kits together.

[MorphingJar]

Balance with what the AI has in coop? What does this have to do with coop? Not much that I can tell. So why do we have to have kits?

This thread has nothing to do with coop. The Kit selection in general is the main focus here.

Then I respectfully suggest you specify that in your thread title since it's a touchy topic for coop as well. Your title leaves it WIDE open for interpretation. There's alot of multiplayer this and multiplayer in different threads that and all people are talking about is adversarial gametypes when many of the things they are talking about bleed over into coop. Many of the suggestions are quite poor for coop and may not be wanted or to the detriment of it's gameplay. If GRIN were to take this thread as inclusive to all multiplayer gametypes then COOP players would be screwed.

I think it's VERY important to target your thread especially when you have not intention of including cooperative play yet the features you are speaking of are inclusive to it. As such I think it's quite valid to bring the coop perspective into the thread. Next time be more specific.

I personally don't see what the COOP players are getting all bent out of shape for. There is nothing at all wrong with kit selections in "COOP vs Multiplayer". I wasn't aware that there was such a split between the two communities. While we are talking about diversities here, lets take it one more step. My understanding of the whole argument is that Since the teams are Humans vs AI, there is no need for any "balance" issues such as the kit selection. So the COOP side of the line wants to have every weapon and attachment available to them. They want to be able to fully customize their loadout to make them into a virtual One-man-army.

I think the biggest thing that seems to be forgotten here is that the COOP players are taking the "coop" out of the game. You have a significantly larger amount of teammates available to you. So the need for One person to have, for example, a Grenade launcher plus a large amount of hand grenades is completely unwarranted. Perhaps you should try and actually cooperate with your teammates and use actual teamwork to accomplish your goals. Have the support person pull up and start spamming a corner of the street for cover while the rest of your teammates crosses the streets. I played a little COOP back in the day with GRAW1 and more often than not, you would see one or two players with the "perfect kits" clear out 70% of the map by themselves. Limiting each person's equipment actually promotes more teamwork between the players to try and overcome the AI.

As such I think it's quite valid to bring the coop perspective into the thread. Next time be more specific.

Coop Perspective included

Edited July 30, 2007 by MorphingJar

[Tinker]

Balance with what the AI has in coop? What does this have to do with coop? Not much that I can tell. So why do we have to have kits?

This thread has nothing to do with coop. The Kit selection in general is the main focus here.

Then I respectfully suggest you specify that in your thread title since it's a touchy topic for coop as well. Your title leaves it WIDE open for interpretation. There's alot of multiplayer this and multiplayer in different threads that and all people are talking about is adversarial gametypes when many of the things they are talking about bleed over into coop. Many of the suggestions are quite poor for coop and may not be wanted or to the detriment of it's gameplay. If GRIN were to take this thread as inclusive to all multiplayer gametypes then COOP players would be screwed.

I think it's VERY important to target your thread especially when you have not intention of including cooperative play yet the features you are speaking of are inclusive to it. As such I think it's quite valid to bring the coop perspective into the thread. Next time be more specific.

I personally don't see what the COOP players are getting all bent out of shape for. There is nothing at all wrong with kit selections in "COOP vs Multiplayer". I wasn't aware that there was such a split between the two communities. While we are talking about diversities here, lets take it one more step. My understanding of the whole argument is that Since the teams are Humans vs AI, there is no need for any "balance" issues such as the kit selection. So the COOP side of the line wants to have every weapon and attachment available to them. They want to be able to fully customize their loadout to make them into a virtual One-man-army.

I think the biggest thing that seems to be forgotten here is that the COOP players are taking the "coop" out of the game. You have a significantly larger amount of teammates available to you. So the need for One person to have, for example, a Grenade launcher plus a large amount of hand grenades is completely unwarranted. Perhaps you should try and actually cooperate with your teammates and use actual teamwork to accomplish your goals. Have the support person pull up and start spamming a corner of the street for cover while the rest of your teammates crosses the streets. I played a little COOP back in the day with GRAW1 and more often than not, you would see one or two players with the "perfect kits" clear out 70% of the map by themselves. Limiting each person's equipment actually promotes more teamwork between the players to try and overcome the AI.

As such I think it's quite valid to bring the coop perspective into the thread. Next time be more specific.

Coop Perspective included

Tinker

[petsfed]

While I don't play much MP of any sort, I see the problem behind fixed kits when (at present anyway) there's no way to edit them. I can easily imagine user created re-balancing that solves these apparent balance problems. I'd like to see a server selectable options to pick between the GRAW1 style and the GRAW2 style, or an attachment limitation system a la Raven Shield (although only enforced for MP).

But what do I know?

[Lethal.Ambition]

GRIN needs to allow server admins the choice, which is what we are all asking for here.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Lethal.Ambition

[Muddy1]

I suppose I might be splitting the previously split hair...

The kits might be o.k. with mulitple spawns in deathmatch but when you primarily play coop on "one death" servers you need all the advantage you can carry even with good teamwork.

[WhiteKnight77]

As long as Coop requires mulitple human players to play the game, then Coop is an MP gametype. Getting it through the thick skulls around here is like :wall: :wall: :wall: . If played online or via LAN it is an MP gametype. I can't help it if many of you are so closed mind as to not see the trees for the forest, but MP gametypes are more than just TvT and FFA.

In GR, one had no way to assemble their own kits, they were fixed. Yes, there were choices for each class, but out of each class of soldier, you had maybe 4 or 5 kits to choose from. They all had a few more choices though others had more by the time IT was released.

As I said before, some of you aren't happy unless you are complaining about something. One does not need to have every option available to them under the sun to have a weapon or kit that is usable. Why not learn how to use said kits to use them effectively? It may just play better than you imagined.

[Al-Cobra]

As I said before, some of you aren't happy unless you are complaining about something. One does not need to have every option available to them under the sun to have a weapon or kit that is usable. Why not learn how to use said kits to use them effectively? It may just play better than you imagined.

I agree with this, wholeheartedly. I would LOVE new weapons, real world, fantasy, whatever but as I branch out from my favorite "kits", I enjoy messing around with what the choices of others have.

I like coop, probably more than adversarial but i love what they have done with adversarial in this game.

I will add, though, that the support kit needs an m60, nothing makes a game like the rhythmic thump of the pig gun!

[Peace]

For GRAW 2 MP Coop weapon selection should preferably be like in GRAW 1, i.e., totally customizable (within some weight restrictions).

But for GRAW 2 MP T vs T it should preferably be as it is (preset kits), which makes gameplay much more interesting and variable, not just silenced guns etc. Good job Grin

Or, EVEN BETTER can it be that hard to make a server side option? e.g.:

A) Balanced kit or B) Customizable

...and with optional kit restrictions.

Let the server admins fully decide. Everybody would be happy and would be able to play on servers of their preferance! Options are the key!

PS Yea... the usual rant: Please consider in future games? 4 random insertion zones in Tvs T (like in GR1) + a wound model that makes a difference (like GR1) + replays (like GR1) With these and some SADS improvements the T vs T game would be rock solid !

[JJUK]

Hey if i wanted balance i would join a ballet or gym class, i dont so let me choose my kit, then i will show those damn snipers in the new Sniper Graw game we have oh i mean graw 2 with bushes.