Told you so!

[strike]

As more and more [GR] servers go back online i cant stay quiet any longer, i was trying to wait 5 years but failed, i was trying to give graw/graw2 the time. I have but no more. I was really wanting to wait the 5 years to say told you so!!

I can imagine most people within the GR community were looking forward with adolescent excitement to the long awaited sequeal to our beloved game, myself included.

We ventured out, bought the games [both of them] made GRIN and UBISOFT millions of £/$ of profit only to be left humiliated, dejected and desperate for more.

What a complete kick in the gonads that turned out to be! Hey thanks software developers, give yourselves a grand slap on the back for making loads of money, only doing your job!!

Yes you created a good game, second time around........ but it wasnt a ghost recon game & i would have felt ashamed for calling it GR!

[GR] had & still has the loyal following of past, unfortunately i have watched Clans fall apart through lack of a common ground. A few have remaind through it with greatly reduced numbers,

basically ticking over as the few remaining close friends stay together for the sake of friendship rather than gaming buddies.

Congratulations GRAW & GRAW2, i have never felt such dissapointment in a 'game'. Period.

Why didnt the developers [GRIN] listen to the loyal fans?

Why didnt they leave the same [winning] gameplay

Why didnt they leave the same command interface

Why

Why

Why

I have said this before, but, its like sticking a Rolls Royce badge on a Scoda/Lada, not quite the same but that is what UBI/GRIN achieved when they stole our hearts & the [GR] franchise

If you were a car manufacturer......... ouch....... product recall.

COD4, Crysis & S.t.a.k.e.r. to name but a few all good games but dont deliver the 'feel'

These comments are my comments and mine alone, they do not represent anyone from ghostrecon.net.

I will edit my edit through respect to my fellow forum/clan members my choice

Edited January 6, 2008 by strike

[Colin]

strike a lot of what you say may be right, but I must disagree with a couple of points.

This game was never really going to be like the original.

Reason.

Different engine, studio, story line, and above all not 3 years to develope.

Grin listened to the community and indeed placed a lot of what was asked for within the game.

They are the only dev team I know that will talk about the product, help modders mod the product, and keep up posts to try and help with problems.

Graw 2 was a big improvement over 1 so they leaned and listened, you said your self it was a good game.

I think they produced a game that was schedual controlled and this was the biggest problem, especially when you dont have the staff.

All the way through production they worked stupid hours, and were always trying to recruit staff.

I feel your comments especially your link are both Rude and not true.

Yes you entitled to your thoughts but being vulgar to a Dev team that worked damned hard is very offensive.

[JJUK]

We all think what strike says more than what he is showing the Dev team might be talented and yes they do help on the boards but they are a bunch of T+++++s to let the GR game be so bad if they had listerned to the communtiy the right community then the graw we have today would not of been here at all, as a proffessional outfit i would of expected them to drop the game if they couldnt make it as a communtiy wanted, call it something else instead of leading us astray with false hope. Who know s whos fault it is some blame UBI and some Grin, we as the paying public have right to air our views dont you stick up for them let them do it, you might know what happens within there offices or speak to people who are in the know but somewhere along the line they thought F+++ this lets just make our money and run its there for all to see, two hashed games of it. They had a great opportunity to fill a void there were no games that even competed with Graw when it came out so they had every chance to build a great game, they worked all hours but for what, for doulbe time in there pay at the end of the month thats it.

And if the game wasnt to be close to gr what the f+++ were we all waiting for.

Let me just add i still like seeing Grin frequent the boards to help and hopefully the new patch will still come out, as it is still the best game about at the moment, just lacks content and a final push.

Edited January 6, 2008 by JJUK

[petsfed]

I'm not trying to stick up for Grin, or UBI for that matter. However, criticizing Grin for delivering the product they were contractually obligated to deliver is naive. I'm not certain if you've signed many contracts in your life, but understand, please, that when you fail to hold up your end of the bargain, there's a legal price to be paid. In the States, you can sue for contract violation, I'd imagine in Sweden it is not much different. So if (when) Grin realized they couldn't deliver on the product we wanted, they had two options: either deliver what UBI wanted, or pay the price (probably out of pocket) for contract violation. UBI, I think, is not the sort to send more money and manpower to a second or third tier product if the developers can not stay true to some artistic vision. Companies like that will simply take the source code and hand it over to a less scrupulous development team and the original development team has a hard time getting contracts with big publishers ever again.

So Grin gave us GRAW2 almost exactly as it exists now, and traded what you consider to be integrity for the chance to keep drawing a paycheck.

I'm not saying that any of these notions make what Grin did right, but simply that the choice to "sell out", as you're subtly suggesting, is always motivated by more than just the offer of more money, and if you accuse someone of selling out, it only means that they sold out to someone other than you.

Finally, if UBI has even a faintly standard NDA with Grin, any Grin members making statements on business and/or management decisions without UBI authorization will be subject to various consequences that start with losing the speaker's job, and going so far as putting Grin in legal trouble.

'Tis better to stay silent and be thought the fool, the old saying goes, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[strike]

'Tis better to stay silent and be thought the fool, the old saying goes, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Very good, the fool i am, paying for it twice.

I say what i mean why be quiet? i have a point & its been voiced. If these offend sorry.

I agree with all above comment, i understand GRIN where probably contractually obliged to pander under UBI.

They shouldnt have been allowed to call it GR though.

I said what i wanted to say, i have my opinion regardless of what others may think.

I love good banter

''Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed.''

[mwgfghost]

Well I think I'm gonna go with BFS from now on. Right now, I'm waiting for Ghost Recon Gold Edition cause GRAW and GRAW 2 make me sick.

[JJUK]

We all think what strike says more than what he is showing the Dev team might be talented and yes they do help on the boards but they are a bunch of T+++++s to let the GR game be so bad if they had listerned to the communtiy the right community then the graw we have today would not of been here at all, as a proffessional outfit i would of expected them to drop the game if they couldnt make it as a communtiy wanted, call it something else instead of leading us astray with false hope. Who know s whos fault it is some blame UBI and some Grin, we as the paying public have right to air our views dont you stick up for them let them do it, you might know what happens within there offices or speak to people who are in the know but somewhere along the line they thought F+++ this lets just make our money and run its there for all to see, two hashed games of it. They had a great opportunity to fill a void there were no games that even competed with Graw when it came out so they had every chance to build a great game, they worked all hours but for what, for doulbe time in there pay at the end of the month thats it.

And if the game wasnt to be close to gr what the f+++ were we all waiting for.

Let me just add i still like seeing Grin frequent the boards to help and hopefully the new patch will still come out, as it is still the best game about at the moment, just lacks content and a final push.

I'm not trying to stick up for Grin, or UBI for that matter. However, criticizing Grin for delivering the product they were contractually obligated to deliver is naive. I'm not certain if you've signed many contracts in your life, but understand, please, that when you fail to hold up your end of the bargain, there's a legal price to be paid. In the States, you can sue for contract violation, I'd imagine in Sweden it is not much different. So if (when) Grin realized they couldn't deliver on the product we wanted, they had two options: either deliver what UBI wanted, or pay the price (probably out of pocket) for contract violation. UBI, I think, is not the sort to send more money and manpower to a second or third tier product if the developers can not stay true to some artistic vision. Companies like that will simply take the source code and hand it over to a less scrupulous development team and the original development team has a hard time getting contracts with big publishers ever again.

So Grin gave us GRAW2 almost exactly as it exists now, and traded what you consider to be integrity for the chance to keep drawing a paycheck.

I'm not saying that any of these notions make what Grin did right, but simply that the choice to "sell out", as you're subtly suggesting, is always motivated by more than just the offer of more money, and if you accuse someone of selling out, it only means that they sold out to someone other than you.

Finally, if UBI has even a faintly standard NDA with Grin, any Grin members making statements on business and/or management decisions without UBI authorization will be subject to various consequences that start with losing the speaker's job, and going so far as putting Grin in legal trouble.

'Tis better to stay silent and be thought the fool, the old saying goes, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

What !! i am a gas engineer i design and install and now repair boilers if a customer wants a boiler and they try and cut corners i tell them to use someone else, that customer then has a choice, i to have that same choice to do a shabby job and put my reputation on the line or walk away, i always in this situation choose to walk which is why i need not advertise and get all my work through recomendations.

Obviously we dont know all the fact surronding Grins and UBis situation but what we do know is that while making Graw they cut corners and made a poor job of it, this is without dipute, its a fact and a well known one. If i were to sign a contract i woyuld make damn sure that my interests were upholded, more fool them if they didnt.

Ive never heard that saying??

I can only go on what i see personally, yes they did do a good game and i would be proud of it but was it worth it, would you buy another Grin game Honestly untill you seen some good reviews, the same for UBI, yes before this i would buy any goodish game to see what its like but more and more they are turning out turkeys, and i hate turkey.

Anyway i need to take my medication, high blood pressure and all

Edited January 6, 2008 by JJUK

[strike]

What !! i am a gas engineer i design and install and now repair boilers if a customer wants a boiler and they try and cut corners i tell them to use someone else, that customer then has a choice, i to have that same choice to do a shabby job and put my reputation on the line or walk away, i always in this situation choose to walk which is why i need not advertise and get all my work through recomendations.

No way iam a Qualified Gas Engineer too, honestly. Have i signed many contracts in my life? over £500,000 worth in the last 5 years, being self employed has its perks.

I agree

I knew this would open a can off worms, as i said guid banter

[bigcat75]

hold on, we have one group saying graw2 is a good game (although not a GR game), and another group saying they cut corners and it's not a good game!

??

My opinion is, as Strike stated in the original post, it's a good game, but should not even be called GR. I'm kind of disapointed in all the complaints about bugs and shortcuts when the REAL problem is the departure from the award-winning gameplay that has kept us around for 5 years.

I'm not saying bugs should not be discussed, I just think the departure from the core gameplay is many times more alarming.

Edited January 6, 2008 by bigcat75

[ARUJackal]

I just think the departure from the core gameplay is many times more alarming.

This is very confusing to me. Core game play?

I played GR tonight just to see what you mean but I can't see a difference in what you can or can't do between GR and GRAW. In GRAW 2 yes it is visible but can be patched. But to say the CORE game play is not there? What do you mean?

Jack

P.S

This is not a slur or opposition to your comments just a plain question I'm interested to find out what you mean...

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Here is some thoughts from someone who matched in the series and also partipated in some of the betas

GR1 before desert seige and IT

Unmatchable, crap. Server was unstable.

After Desert Seige

Playable. Expansion made it well worth it. MAtching and popularity started to come

Island Thunder

Very matchable and playable but...support got dropped before all bugs were fixed. A certain hack that downed the servers was not patched. I talked with people that had direct access to RSE. They said the game was no longer supported and that was all.

Original creator of it made a patch and recon log fixed it... thank god for the community.

During all this RSE was not accessible unlike Grin. They provided very little help unless you were in the right channels. Without the community it would not last.

SOAF. Built on the GR1 engine but updated. Total flop (you guys sure you want RSE to create another?)

Then talks of GR2... I think this was for almost a year or more. Finally UBI admitted it wasn't going to happen. Said it wasn't what the community wanted.

Not sure if it was do to community dissaproval but then UBI contracted Grin to creat GR:AW. UBI mislead us in thinking it was a GR2 but it was not. I say UBI because the marketing said it, not Grin.

then GRAW1 comes out. The community believes it's like GR1. it comes out with one main game mode, domination. The community is disappoined. Still not Grins fault. They made the engine and did what they could in the time allowed as a new game based on the ghost recon theme. It took me 4 months to like the game. Once i got over it was not GR1, it was actually cool. Then a buggy patched made the GL crash the game. 1.35 patch took forever and was released after most of the community left. It fixed it but it was too late.

Then GRAW2 released. Great game. Some changes. Not that many bugs but some key elements are missing such as autodownload of maps and some server commands. This limited matching. Ladders didn't accept it and the GR1 community still are in uproar about not being gr1. I enjoyed GRAW2 a lot though. I realize it's a different game. The matching was fun while it lasted although some bugs were annoying with the server hosting. The tournament here at GR.NET has been a blast. The editor as far as i know is functiional. 1st let me say this. It's not GR1. RSE couldnt' even satisfy us with SOAF so get over the "it's Grin's fault". GR1 was a fluke, and still had some bugs till the end (Tip toeing, crator glitching, AI that would drop you if you shot a nade but not twitch when there buddy was dropped by a silent bullet, Support would lag the server and mm1 could crash it). It took a few patches and 2 expansions to make us like it. GRAW 2 was so close though. If we had injuries like GR1, Auto map downloads like GRAW1 and a stable server non scripted with a gui it could have been golden. (but still not gr1, but an even GREATER game in it's own class) If there was an expansion with the above and 10 maps from a new area (with snow and or rain or such) It would be a GREAT game. Grin did though listen. I know some things (a few) i discussed with them should be in the up in coming patch as i personally talked back and forth with some on them. This was and still in unheard of anywhere in any game.

Here is another question for you. Why is COD4 so popular? It's maps are short. no injury model, minimap only (unless you press the unmappable esc key) and perks aka cheats. It's server is a script and sucks. I despise it but still play it some with my clan. I can only play a few times a week and sometimes it makes me feel like breaking my mouse. It does not have anything releated to GR1 in it but yet lots of us hear play it. This may be a good thing for another topic but i'm curious on why people like it besides the amount of players.

ARUJACKAL

The difference really is down to this. Already created mods, the sound environment, injuries that make you feel like you have been hit and act like you have been, and the way the campaigns and missions are layed out.

STRIKE,

Find SOAF and play it. This was the GR2. It had what you requested, but it sucked. Also note the new games are GRAW, not gr. the AW means new engine, new graphics, new game. It's theme is only GR1 like.

[snared_gambit]

I personally don't think that a next-gen game built around the same old Ghost Recon style would be very fun at all. GR was and always will be one of the greatest games ever, but seriously, making a new game that had everything exactly like [GR], a bunch of fancy new things to boot, and a new storyline would not be very good at all. Making new games isn't about recycling old successes, tacking some new features on, and calling it a brand new game. Take the Mario Bros series for example. The originals, while fun in their own right, don't hold a candle to the newer Marios for their innovations that made the sequels worth continuing to play. Cookie cutter sequels are pretty lame in my opinion, and I avoid them. If the developers for that had done what you guys apparently want for Ghost Recon, Mario Galaxy would still be a side-scroller in 2D, because that's what everyone loved originally.

[petsfed]

What !! i am a gas engineer i design and install and now repair boilers if a customer wants a boiler and they try and cut corners i tell them to use someone else, that customer then has a choice, i to have that same choice to do a shabby job and put my reputation on the line or walk away, i always in this situation choose to walk which is why i need not advertise and get all my work through recomendations.

I'd wager a guess that you don't sign too many non-disclosure agreements in your line of work, but that's secondary to my point. See, Grin, unlike you, doesn't have a well established reputation. I mean, I'd never heard of them until they started work on GRAW. So if they get chosen to produce a game, it is work for them. If they pass on that, they don't get paid. If they bail on a contract without delivering the promised product, they get screwed rep wise, and they still don't get paid.

What does it do to your reputation if you take on a contract and then say in the middle that you can't complete it to the customer's specifications?

I cannot imagine that Grin got a contract from UBI that said they could bail at any time without any consequences and that's why I think Grin chose to attach their name to this project. Make no mistake, UBI was going to pin the Ghost Recon name on the PC versions of GRAW and GRAW2. If Grin bailed, some less scrupulous developer would've gotten the contract, and we would've gotten an even worse game that what we got.

Edited January 7, 2008 by petsfed

[Papa6]

You guys are wasting your time complaining about something that I quit complaining about bcz I realized it would fall on deaf ears.

So I'm only going to say this once, "Don't waste your time complaining about GRAW/GRAW2, your wasting your time

[krise madsen]

I knew this would open a can off worms, as i said guid banter

Or would that be "a worm of cans" Colin?

Anyhew. I guess the question we're debating is to what extent a new GR game should be a more-or-less straight copy of GR1? Well, as much as I love the good old GR1, a new GR game would have to be "evolved".

So why didn't GRAW cut it then? Because they weren't "evolved", merely "transformed" (into a linear story/gameplay hero character "action shooter"). Now, Ubi did try to cater to the PC community with the PC-specific version. They just sucked at it.

So what wold an "evolved" GR1 look like then? No idea. That is the task of skilled and creative game developers. However, I do know what it takes to make a proper GR sequel: The developers must truly understand the type of game they are making. And they must understand that what they're creating is in many ways different from other first person shooters. The fate of a new GR game will be determined in the game design phase.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Nutlink]

I have to agree with Roco, GRAW 2 was so close but missing enough to be frustrating. Things like AI, weapon/scope sway, auto downloads of maps, iffy way of implementing mods, lack of an injury model, hero-based SP, semi-linear maps, and a few other things it'd be damn near the perfect game. A patch could add/fix these things I'm sure, but an expansion pack would be better.

[doubletap]

I personally don't think that a next-gen game built around the same old Ghost Recon style would be very fun at all. GR was and always will be one of the greatest games ever, but seriously, making a new game that had everything exactly like [GR], a bunch of fancy new things to boot, and a new storyline would not be very good at all. Making new games isn't about recycling old successes, tacking some new features on, and calling it a brand new game. Take the Mario Bros series for example. The originals, while fun in their own right, don't hold a candle to the newer Marios for their innovations that made the sequels worth continuing to play. Cookie cutter sequels are pretty lame in my opinion, and I avoid them. If the developers for that had done what you guys apparently want for Ghost Recon, Mario Galaxy would still be a side-scroller in 2D, because that's what everyone loved originally.

This always comes up sooner or later. Those of us not happy with the direction the series has taken are not asking for the exact same game over and over. We may say that sometimes but it's probably out of frustration. Obviously we all want next gen quality but that does not mean turning GR into an interactive action movie with a hero character, linear maps, pathetic overacting, scripted firefights, and trading immersion and tention for lots of action and yelling over the comm system. The whole feel of the SP game is GONE, except for a couple of missions like Rosin and mission two.

That's basically my whole complaint is the feel of the SP game has gone from extremely authentic to extremely hollywood.

When Ground Branch is released, play THAT and you'll see that "next gen" is not synonomous with james bond gadgetry, starship trooper soldiers and over the top "save the planet" storylines. Ghost Recon didn't evolve, it was killed and another game was given it's name.

However, having said all of that, as much as I hate what has happened to GR, I have to admit compared to that COD4 arcade garbage GRAW2 is absolute tactical heaven. It disgusts me those games are even brought up in this forum. But that just shows how the mainstream gamers look at shooters: they're all just games with guns, yeehah! Doesn't matter if it's Halo or GR, grab a gun and start runnin', woohoo!

Edited January 7, 2008 by doubletap

[Lightspeed]

You guys are wasting your time complaining about something that I quit complaining about bcz I realized it would fall on deaf ears.

So I'm only going to say this once, "Don't waste your time complaining about GRAW/GRAW2, your wasting your time

did Papa really say that?? ??!??!?!?

i think GRAW2 was 90% there - better mod tools, better coop, more palyers for coop, more and better maps - done deal.

Edited January 7, 2008 by SCE_Lightspeed

[JJUK]

Hey i liked SOAF

Frustrating is what i see in most posts and thats it its frustrating that they were so close.

[RAbbi_74]

Never played SOAF. Just picked up the original OFP last year. Still never played the original HalfLife, and JUST got HL2 (OrangeBox) a couple weeks ago. Never played CounterStrike. Never played any of the SWAT games, and gave up on RogueSpear MP right about the time I started playing [GR].

Ghost Recon was the game. Hell, don't even bother with a new Ghost Recon game. Really. Get this lot here back on the servers for [GR], and I'm there. I don't need better graphics, though it wouldn't hurt. I don't need new content, though that would be welcome. What I need is [GR] and the continues support of it from the modders in this community, as well ass ladder participation by the clans who were always there before. If that puts Ubi's stock down by a quarter point tomorrow morning, I could frankly give a damn. I don't care what RSE, GRIN or Ubishaft want.

GRAW2 wasn't what I wanted any more than GRAW was. Admittedly, GRAW2 was mostly an improvement over GRAW. There was actually ONE entertaining mission in there (tragically short as it was).

What's [GR] got that GRAW/GRAW2 doesn't? Read this forum. It's all been said in here time after time after time, until even my whiny self is too damned tired of typing it.

If you like the AW games, then by all means go ahead and express it here. The profit machine will keep churning out games like it that will suit you. And I'll be all happy for you. If you don't, then keep on saying so here as well. Maybe I'm wrong and it WILL get changed eventually. Who knows? Either way, or at any shade between, I give a damn who's a gas engineer, who knows what about nondisclosure agreements, and so on. That's not the least bit constructive or helpful.

[Papa6]

You guys are wasting your time complaining about something that I quit complaining about bcz I realized it would fall on deaf ears.

So I'm only going to say this once, "Don't waste your time complaining about GRAW/GRAW2, your wasting your time

did Papa really say that?? ??!??!?!?

i think GRAW2 was 90% there - better mod tools, better coop, more players for coop, more and better maps - done deal.

Yeah that was me. I'm going to be the Huge 40 this July and have had to really reflect inside myself that I'm too old to let stuff bother me. I finally found my oldest daughter and made initial contact with her. So that's my priority right now.

[JJUK]

Hey i was just sitting here thinking what shall i play getting all wound up, Cod 4 er AA errr Graw 2 then i seen this thread and it just set me off

[th33f.]

to quote more than half of the posts in here: the games are different, doesn't feel like the original, not the same core gameplay, followed by a multitude of minor complaints, with nothing concrete being a deal-breaker.

i'm sure all of you tried the castle map, recreated by Byro to the smallest detail. what's off? can you name it? one thing that isn't there, that will make things "feel" like GR? i hope some of you will actually try to answer that question. try starting with the basics of an online first person game, and you'll realize how early into AW development the GR franchise was doomed...

the first thing they got wrong is the scale, generally speaking. that includes the character movement speed and the FOV angle. by the way, COD series have always had 90 degrees, and so does COD4, i think... not to mention the rifle scopes allow you to see around them quite well, except the sniper rifles, which is the exact same thing [GR] did, except there were no scope textures at all. with a scoped SCAR-L i dive into a tunnel every time i bring it up. a convenient mouse wheel controllable instant zoom! old, but it was easier! besides, Ghost Recon could be played at 150-200 FPS back in the days, while the AW brings you down to 60 in busy servers, no matter what you got in your box. with people being able to sprint, strafe and get a headshot on you within three quarters of a second, 60 FPS is not so great. again, in COD4, at 1920x1200 i had to tweak down some options to stay above 120 frames. GRIN didn't achieve that. to sink themselves even deeper into the hole, they made all the maps clear, while [GR], and excuse me, COD4, have both light and heavy fog present on nearly half of the maps. choices were made, that irreversibly distanced the both AW games' gameplay from what GR felt like. no patch, or expansion can really take care of that. more maps and features would probably breathe some life into GRAW2, but not for long, i'm afraid.

at least that's what it is for me, in a nutshell. i'm playing [GR] for like a week now, and i enjoy it. oh, and i liked SOAF, of course. it was basically GR's arcade mode with smaller, much more linear maps. people just stopped playing it.

[strike]

My opinion is, as Strike stated in the original post, it's a good game, but should not even be called GR. I'm kind of disapointed in all the complaints about bugs and shortcuts when the REAL problem is the departure from the award-winning gameplay that has kept us around for 5 years.

Ghost Recon didn't evolve, it was killed and another game was given it's name.

My whole point ^^^^^^^ The sad fact is we will NEVER get a true sequal to our game.

We waited long enough for GR2, but got shafted BIG TIME

GRAW & GRAW2 were good games in their own right, but not GR games.

UBI made their money on the PC market years ago, just seems we dont matter now!!

SOAF .... i will look out for that one thx

I hope the guys over at Ground Branch really do have the magic and forethought to listen to the paying public, if indeed they are onto a winner.

Thanks for all comments guys

[mwgfghost]

I'm gonna go with GB from BFS. To hell with anymore AW games.