An analogy of GRAW,UBI & Grin

[Papa6]

I wanted to take an opportunity to relay an analogy that sums up the dissatisfaction so most will understand why so many dislike GRAW.

I'll use an analogy of building a home.

the players: Grin..the homebuilder, UBI the sales company ,GRAW...the house itself and you the buyers who bought GRAW

Grin is a new homebuilder on the block. UBI contracts the GRIN to build homes that are new and high tech. For $50US, you too can enjoy a luxurious home by GRIN and sold by UBI. So people have checked the internet on these fine homes and heard the features and value that these homes will have. so many get excited and promptly apply the $50US fee and are in the deal.

Time passes and people are getting concerned about thier homes being built and inquire through various sites to the status of thier home. Grin assures everyone that everything is on schedule.

The day arrives, Grin and UBI allow everyone to move in to thier respective houses(release the game). People move in and rather quickly see that something is afoul. while the houses look very nice on the inside and outside overall speaking but, the people see there are some things missing from thier house. they realize that the houses are built without backdecks to host parties(dedicated server feature), this disappoints many and they call GRIN/UBI via GR.net and inquire why they don't have decks to host parties for friends and family. GRIN/UBI assure everyone that there are no decks but decks are being made as they speak and will be added(patched) in the near future. In the meantime, other problems arise whereby the homeowners get really irritated. Lights intermittenly go out(server connections), the air conditioning often doesn't work(Anti-cheat feature). also, the keys for the home sometimes don't work at all and can't get into thier home(files don't match issue)

So people are up in arms about these homes not being what they paid for. But Grin subsequently has the lights and air conditioning fixed and the cable installation lags so the picture on the TV skips frames and sometimes crashes so the box has to be reset(online gaming quality). but in all people are still angry that they have no decks to host parties as this is a minimum requirement for enjoying thier new homes. but four months and several fixes these homes are still incomplete which, GRIN assures it is aware of this and promises will be fixed by the fall. so as it sits, it is almost Fall ,four months after the homes were free to move into and still many features are missing or don't work. some are also asking for Grin to add some small features to make the overall enjoyment of thier homes what it should have been. Most made a great decision to not buy a home(GRAW) until they got to test out the model home(Demo) and declined to buy a home. but the homes are still un finished and many have moved and sold thier homes to go on to different homes(PC Games)

that generally sums up what the problem is with GRAW I believe. Can't believe I sat on the bus on my way to work and thought this all up.

-Papa6

Edited August 13, 2006 by Papa6

[ToW-Angel]

It's a good analogy, Papa... And it is very true and I respect what you have said here.

I will go on record that I'm a very patient person and I will believe that GRiN will hold up their end, UBI providing.

Personally... I think GRiN could do a world of wonders if they were allowed to publish their own game, which I would buy in a heartbeat; finished or unfinished.

Game publishers themselves are the real enemy here... GRiN is only able to work within what UBI set before them... But, we can't place the all the blame on UBI, according to many, when we have pushed for the game ourselves.

We wanted the game, we wanted it yesterday, we didn't have the patience, and neither did UBI... UBI was wanting their money sooner rather than later.

The only real people we cannot blame in this entire mess is GRiN, while many of you will disagree with that statement.

My 2-cent Analogy:

It's like the contractor saying that you have to have the houses done now, with the subcontractor stating that it's not ready and the buyers already wanting to move in before it's finished.

[Papa6]

My 2-cent Analogy:

It's like the contractor saying that you have to have the houses done now, with the subcontractor stating that it's not ready and the buyers already wanting to move in before it's finished.

good addition! well said.

[big_perm]

It's a good analogy, Papa... And it is very true and I respect what you have said here.

I will go on record that I'm a very patient person and I will believe that GRiN will hold up their end, UBI providing.

Personally... I think GRiN could do a world of wonders if they were allowed to publish their own game, which I would buy in a heartbeat; finished or unfinished.

Game publishers themselves are the real enemy here... GRiN is only able to work within what UBI set before them... But, we can't place the all the blame on UBI, according to many, when we have pushed for the game ourselves.

We wanted the game, we wanted it yesterday, we didn't have the patience, and neither did UBI... UBI was wanting their money sooner rather than later.

The only real people we cannot blame in this entire mess is GRiN, while many of you will disagree with that statement.

My 2-cent Analogy:

It's like the contractor saying that you have to have the houses done now, with the subcontractor stating that it's not ready and the buyers already wanting to move in before it's finished.

Im pretty sure GRIN said GRAW was complete last november. Not sure, but I remember hearing this. If this is the case, then UBI took a look at it and said "no this isnt done you need to add more to this game" and then came the delay. Now in this scenario, the blame is on GRIN and not UBI. I just want to know the real truth so we know who caused it all.

Edited August 13, 2006 by big_perm

[Papa6]

I won't touch the blame game idea, but I will say something is amiss

[Pulaski]

The only real people we cannot blame in this entire mess is GRiN, while many of you will disagree with that statement.

Yep, your right I disagree 100%. UBI/GRIN both don't have a clue on what is needed for the MP side of the game. Most of the MP community I know from [GR] will not even buy the game until it's fixed. Which, most likely will never happen.

[ToW-Angel]

Just remember that you need to clump everyone together with GRiN/UBI, because we are the ones that pushed for the game before it was ready. That would make us just as blameful as they are.

*Yes, I know I wasn't here during that time, but it's better to say 'we' than 'you'.

[Papa6]

Well either way, the crowd would've left before the game shipped if nothing came about or afterwards. either way, there was going to be disappointments all around.

Added: Grin, I'd recommend that you guys develop a game like GR with your own engine and get close to the community and see what magic comes about. UBI can't tell you anything about what gamers want after so many failed titles. Go with what you know and we can get a game to remember together...

Edited August 13, 2006 by Papa6

[big_perm]

I really appreciate that they do come to the forums and talk. Its the reason Im still keeping tabs on the game. I just hope its an awesome game someday.

[ToW-Angel]

If it's anything like I've been seeing in this game currently, then I have every expectation that it will be the game GRiN has been telling us the whole time.

[Cuchillo*]

Gr:AW full o bugs------> ---------> by by......

Will never buy home from this new home builder (no experiece at all , no man power or resources ) "home builder builds bad reputation for itself" contractor save money , but start loosing some clients , but will look for new homebuilder ( more experince ) again , contractor not guilty , builder no experience to build fast and well done . contractor say BY by to homebuilder this make me loose money , mmm no good , NEXT PROYECT !!!

Cheers

[zulater]

bad analogy

here's why

when buying a home you get to inspect the final product before you buy it. many features in graw (that are on the box) are still not present.

"1. Recieve images in realtime from squadmates, helicopters, and remote-operated drones" we see a wireframe not an image

"3. blow through walls, finish off tanks, and shoot around corners with..." need i say more

"Battle on dedicated servers in the explosive new 32-player..." hmmm dedi servers

if you have your house built you get to specify the floorplan, find your own contractor, and have it built to your liking. with ubi/graw/grin we get none of those. i don't get to say this is how i want graw and i want x to write it.

[Nutlink]

bad analogy

here's why

when buying a home you get to inspect the final product before you buy it. many features in graw (that are on the box) are still not present.

"1. Recieve images in realtime from squadmates, helicopters, and remote-operated drones" we see a wireframe not an image

"3. blow through walls, finish off tanks, and shoot around corners with..." need i say more

"Battle on dedicated servers in the explosive new 32-player..." hmmm dedi servers

if you have your house built you get to specify the floorplan, find your own contractor, and have it built to your liking. with ubi/graw/grin we get none of those. i don't get to say this is how i want graw and i want x to write it.

1. Yes, we do, in the form of a full image screen. (I do agree that it shouldn't be a wireframe though)

2. Where's 2?

3. Blowing thru walls = wooden fences and concrete with the sniper rifle (says nothing of explosives, just blowing), finish off tanks with with the Zeus, don't know about the shooting around corners with... part since I never heard of that for GRAW, and yes there are dedicated servers (just not STAND ALONE DEDICATED SERVER FILES).

Gotta love marketing....

Edited August 13, 2006 by Nutlink

[Lightspeed]

I for one take no responsibility for the game being released unfinished and krap. To say that it is, we, the players fault is a bunch of BS.

UBI n GRIN we the ones who told us that GR3, or GRAW would be made for PC.

They also gave us the expected Release date for the game which was in 2005.

They chose to delay the release cos the game wasnt ready, not bcoz of xbox360 release, but bcoz the game wasnt anywhere near complete.

They lied to us that we would get a Demo in January 2006. It never came.

They misled the players that they were taking good care of MP, implied that we needn't worry. What a joke.

They told us they were taking care of business re: the AC. More BS.

Bo even came out and said to the disbelievers something along the lines of 'Dont buy the game if you dont want, you'll be missing out on the best game this year'. More BS.

Then they release a non-MP Demo...again...deceiving the players IMO. Damn good reason why the Demo wasnt MP.

Although players got impatient with the game delay, most ppl agreed that if the game was all it was supposed to be, then the wait would be worth it. We got the delay alright, and we still ended up with a fizzer.

They fed us more BS about the game being patched n ready by end of Summer. I dont think so.

But the biggest BS that comes after all of this are statements that suggest that it is the players fault for pushing for release, and its not GRINs fault at all. Credit where Credit is due, GRIN built GRAW, so GRIN is responsible. Not me, not the players.

Edited August 13, 2006 by PoW_LigHtsPeEd

[Colin]

If this game had been finished now and not being worked on still, I might agree with some of this.

But its not finished and whats being done in the way of fixes add ons is making the game better and better.

I used to wonder how why who or what, but thats past history and is way back in dozens of previous posts.

Instead I look at the commitmement to the game now by both Ubisoft and Grin and look also whats being done with the help of some people here, some of you are responsable for changes directly to the game, this is possative feedback from this community.

I will also add that most of us here with a little common dont give a crap about whats been done in the past, we can actually see beyond that, and we can see where the game is going.

We can see what the modders are doing, some of you might not like this but this game has got a future and a long one, so yes bring on your negative posts and theory posts.

It wont make a bit of difference to the ones that are playing the game, modding the game, enjoying the game, period.

[ToW-Angel]

You can only please some some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time.

Who is at fault here is the basic question and the lack of patience is the other problem.

Don't like the game, leave and never come back and never make a comment again... Basically, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

Don't like what I say, tell it to me in a PM.

Players are just as much at fault for wanting the game before it was finished... You got what you paid for that way... You got the game, it may not be exactly what you were expecting, but you got the game none-the-less. THAT is YOUR fault. You chose to purchase the game, no one twisted your arm, no one held a gun to your head, no one said you had to purchase the game stating it was your life or death.

There are some truly constructive posts here, and Papa was very realistic in his analogy, just as I was with mine.

Most of the negative posts are from people who lack any real kind of patience. But, there are some negative posts that are constructive. Which one path you choose is the real question.

I'm going to get so philosophical with you that you won't know which end is which... You can either choose to eat the apple or look at it, the point is you chose to eat the apple, whether you like it or not. You made a choice, your choice is to help make the game better, or continuously bash the very people who gave you a game that you had been asking for. You want to blame UBI, some want to blame GRiN, some of you blame GRiN and UBI, but what you are forgetting is that you are just as much to blame as they are for a lack of patience, and your destructiveness to the community with posts bashing this or that person.

Either way you look at it, it's a lose-lose situtation, and not owning up to your own faults (lack of patience) is destructive in nature.

And what you SO FREAKING ELOQUENTLY FORGET IS: UBI SOFT IS THE ONE IN CONTROL AND CALLING THE SHOTS. See... That's where you are at fault... GRiN isn't calling the shots... They aren't the ones in control except for giving UBI Soft the timeline of when they can have something completed, then UBI goes back to GRiN and says "You have to have it done sooner."

Think about this another way... You have a job, you have a boss, and there are many other employees... The boss tells you when you have to have something done by, you and the other employees do what you can do get it done by when the boss says, complete or otherwise. So, you turn over what you have and hope that it's good enough for the boss. The boss feels that it's enough to release the game. The Boss (UBI), the Employee (GRiN), and the other employees (US). No matter how you look at it, you work hard to get what you can accomplished in the time frame that the boss has given you. You've worked hard, and all the other employees are nagging at you to get it done, and no matter how much you NAG the HELL out of them, it's never good enough.

Chastize me as you will, castigate me as you feel or admonish me for my thoughts on this matter...

I am personally sick of seeing people bash this and that person, GRiN and UBI. If you can't come together as a community, even you people who continuously bash things, then I have to say that you are the one with a problem, not the rest of us who are attempting our very best to make this the best game.

We are at fault, no matter how you look at it, just as much as the rest of the people involved. You don't provide a positive, constructive feed back. Negative things can be positive, but to HELL with bashing. It's pointless, counter-productive and it sure doesn't shed a good light on you.

GR:AW, given the time and the patience will be a game of legends, just like GR1 ([GR]) was, even in your eyes. You all have said that GR1 ([GR]) took time to get it to where it was, and you cannot absolutely expect GR:AW, out of the box, to be the same exact thing as GR1 ([GR]) was and currently is. It took time for it to get there, just like any game.

GRiN has delivered on their promises with the patches, which may not exactly been on YOUR timeline, and that is YOUR fault. And yet you continue to fault them for being a week late, you continue to bash the very people that have given you the game that you all so desparately wanted.

In that, I am very disappointed in the way some people repsond. It's virtually pathetic. Yes, this is my opinion of how I see some people. Am I wrong for my opinion? No... However, before you go pointing the finger at anyone, including me, GRiN or UBI, take the long look in the mirror and ask yourself, especially before you respond to this hideously long post of mine, if you are not, even remotely, partly to blame for how this is turning out by posting destructive posts and getting me to nag you to death about looking at yourselves first, and accepting part of the blame that you are the ones who pushed for the game. The problem lays with UBI telling GRiN of when they can or cannot release something, and you all lack the patience for the patches that have not been fully tested and push for their release, which is also your fault.

That's where the problem is... You push for patches that you feel are incomplete, and you are never satisfied when they do release a patch.

Some of you need to be ashamed of yourselves as human beings for acting the way you do... *sorry, but it's the truth as I see it* I dare you to try it with your boss (and/or parent if you do not have a job) and see what happens.

*NOTE: Don't post if you wish another hideously long post by me.

[Bota:16]

If GRIN built GRAW and they are to blame, then why is GRAW for XBOX360 very similar but built by RSE? The only common connection is U...B...I!. They give the specs to what is built and when it is released not GRIN or RSE for that matter. I am not trying to be a fanboy but at the same time I am not going to bash people that come on these forums to talk to their community and answer questions about problems and help out with mods, custom maps, etc. I have never been involved with a game where this has happened to this extent. Sure sometimes games get PR people to come into forums and discuss the games but not DEVS. This is the best game to come out in a long time IMO. Given I play mostly FPSs. Ghost Recon is still a thinking mans game. Tactics still win. No it is not like the original GR and thank god it is not. Don't get me wrong I like the [GR] (it's what got me into online gaming) but it could get BORING pretty quick. If you want something to not like try playing the R6 series for almost a decade then get something called LOCKDOWN made by RSE (who said the R6 series was going back to it's roots, LOL). GRAW is leaps and bounds above Lockdown.

I am not trying to flare up an argument with you Lightspeed but the game has been out 3 1/2 months. If you feel this way about GRAW why are you still posting here and bashing on the game. We know how you feel. I use to play BF2 quite a bit and had alot of fun playing it. I would frequent some BF2 forums quite often, but I don't play BF2 anymore cause it isn't the same game anymore. Too many people are consumed by their rank and stats. But I don't go on the forums and vent about it. I just don't understand what makes people waste thier time posting on forums, for a gaming forum no less, for a game they don't like. I understand that not everybody is 100% happy and post their dislikes, but from your post you seem like you want to have nothing to do with GRAW. So why are you still here? I am not trying to direct this at you personally Lightspeed but it seems like in almost every topic somebody chimes in about how horrible GRAW is and they will never buy it/play it. That is OK. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But they don't need to repeatedly express it every chance they get. Like I said I am not directing this at you specifically, but posts like that don't make the game better or these forums, it only alienates the GRIN guys that come on these forums to talk about the game and make it to our liking the best they can. Best advice I can give is: Things change, adapt or move on. Sorry for the vent but it's gets old.

I agree that it is not the customers fault for being impatient. Then again I don't really blame anybody. UBI released a VIDEO GAME that I personally like. Some people don't like it. If you don't like it don't buy it/play it. Vote with your pocket book. It just gets annoying when I see people do nothing but bash the game and then I go into a server and they are playing it everday. Not saying you do this Lighspeed, just something I have noticed alot of.

[Stormin]

You can only please some some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time.

Who is at fault here is the basic question and the lack of patience is the other problem.

Don't like the game, leave and never come back and never make a comment again... Basically, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

Don't like what I say, tell it to me in a PM.

Players are just as much at fault for wanting the game before it was finished... You got what you paid for that way... You got the game, it may not be exactly what you were expecting, but you got the game none-the-less. THAT is YOUR fault. You chose to purchase the game, no one twisted your arm, no one held a gun to your head, no one said you had to purchase the game stating it was your life or death.

There are some truly constructive posts here, and Papa was very realistic in his analogy, just as I was with mine.

Most of the negative posts are from people who lack any real kind of patience. But, there are some negative posts that are constructive. Which one path you choose is the real question.

I'm going to get so philosophical with you that you won't know which end is which... You can either choose to eat the apple or look at it, the point is you chose to eat the apple, whether you like it or not. You made a choice, your choice is to help make the game better, or continuously bash the very people who gave you a game that you had been asking for. You want to blame UBI, some want to blame GRiN, some of you blame GRiN and UBI, but what you are forgetting is that you are just as much to blame as they are for a lack of patience, and your destructiveness to the community with posts bashing this or that person.

Either way you look at it, it's a lose-lose situtation, and not owning up to your own faults (lack of patience) is destructive in nature.

And what you SO FREAKING ELOQUENTLY FORGET IS: UBI SOFT IS THE ONE IN CONTROL AND CALLING THE SHOTS. See... That's where you are at fault... GRiN isn't calling the shots... They aren't the ones in control except for giving UBI Soft the timeline of when they can have something completed, then UBI goes back to GRiN and says "You have to have it done sooner."

Think about this another way... You have a job, you have a boss, and there are many other employees... The boss tells you when you have to have something done by, you and the other employees do what you can do get it done by when the boss says, complete or otherwise. So, you turn over what you have and hope that it's good enough for the boss. The boss feels that it's enough to release the game. The Boss (UBI), the Employee (GRiN), and the other employees (US). No matter how you look at it, you work hard to get what you can accomplished in the time frame that the boss has given you. You've worked hard, and all the other employees are nagging at you to get it done, and no matter how much you NAG the HELL out of them, it's never good enough.

Chastize me as you will, castigate me as you feel or admonish me for my thoughts on this matter...

I am personally sick of seeing people bash this and that person, GRiN and UBI. If you can't come together as a community, even you people who continuously bash things, then I have to say that you are the one with a problem, not the rest of us who are attempting our very best to make this the best game.

We are at fault, no matter how you look at it, just as much as the rest of the people involved. You don't provide a positive, constructive feed back. Negative things can be positive, but to HELL with bashing. It's pointless, counter-productive and it sure doesn't shed a good light on you.

GR:AW, given the time and the patience will be a game of legends, just like GR1 ([GR]) was, even in your eyes. You all have said that GR1 ([GR]) took time to get it to where it was, and you cannot absolutely expect GR:AW, out of the box, to be the same exact thing as GR1 ([GR]) was and currently is. It took time for it to get there, just like any game.

GRiN has delivered on their promises with the patches, which may not exactly been on YOUR timeline, and that is YOUR fault. And yet you continue to fault them for being a week late, you continue to bash the very people that have given you the game that you all so desparately wanted.

In that, I am very disappointed in the way some people repsond. It's virtually pathetic. Yes, this is my opinion of how I see some people. Am I wrong for my opinion? No... However, before you go pointing the finger at anyone, including me, GRiN or UBI, take the long look in the mirror and ask yourself, especially before you respond to this hideously long post of mine, if you are not, even remotely, partly to blame for how this is turning out by posting destructive posts and getting me to nag you to death about looking at yourselves first, and accepting part of the blame that you are the ones who pushed for the game. The problem lays with UBI telling GRiN of when they can or cannot release something, and you all lack the patience for the patches that have not been fully tested and push for their release, which is also your fault.

That's where the problem is... You push for patches that you feel are incomplete, and you are never satisfied when they do release a patch.

Some of you need to be ashamed of yourselves as human beings for acting the way you do... *sorry, but it's the truth as I see it* I dare you to try it with your boss (and/or parent if you do not have a job) and see what happens.

*NOTE: Don't post if you wish another hideously long post by me.

I couldn't agree more here and what Colin says... Well put for both of you.. PATIENCE...

[OliverReed]

If this game had been finished now and not being worked on still, I might agree with some of this.

But its not finished and whats being done in the way of fixes add ons is making the game better and better.

I used to wonder how why who or what, but thats past history and is way back in dozens of previous posts.

Instead I look at the commitmement to the game now by both Ubisoft and Grin and look also whats being done with the help of some people here, some of you are responsable for changes directly to the game, this is possative feedback from this community.

But what gives you such faith in the commitment of UBI/GRIN to make the PC version a success? Do you know something that we don't?

Call me a cynic - but the release of AW and subsequent patches has so far has done little to endear this game to the greater gaming population. This leads me to conclude that at some point in the future - UBI/GRIN or whoever (don't care who) is going to say -"Right. that's it! We haven't sold enough units to make this a viable business success. Cancel any further development." This is exactly what happened with Tribes Vengeance.

If you can explain to me why AW won't befall this same fate, I'd be interested to hear it...

[Wille]

If this game had been finished now and not being worked on still, I might agree with some of this.

But its not finished and whats being done in the way of fixes add ons is making the game better and better.

I used to wonder how why who or what, but thats past history and is way back in dozens of previous posts.

Instead I look at the commitmement to the game now by both Ubisoft and Grin and look also whats being done with the help of some people here, some of you are responsable for changes directly to the game, this is possative feedback from this community.

But what gives you such faith in the commitment of UBI/GRIN to make the PC version a success? Do you know something that we don't?

Call me a cynic - but the release of AW and subsequent patches has so far has done little to endear this game to the greater gaming population. This leads me to conclude that at some point in the future - UBI/GRIN or whoever (don't care who) is going to say -"Right. that's it! We haven't sold enough units to make this a viable business success. Cancel any further development." This is exactly what happened with Tribes Vengeance.

If you can explain to me why AW won't befall this same fate, I'd be interested to hear it...

because if it were, why would we still be here, silly buns!

[OliverReed]

because if it were, why would we still be here, silly buns!

Yes - but for how much longer, silly willie How long before the budget runs out...

[Joseph_Q]

Players are just as much at fault for wanting the game before it was finished... You got what you paid for that way... You got the game, it may not be exactly what you were expecting, but you got the game none-the-less. THAT is YOUR fault. You chose to purchase the game, no one twisted your arm, no one held a gun to your head, no one said you had to purchase the game stating it was your life or death.

Cant agree with You here Angel. I didnt get what i paid for. Game had false advertising campaign and some aspects of the game were kept in secret until release.

Papa i like your analogy but i would add few thing.

For a begining you should say that player "lived" in old house build by "UBI" and already waited for next house 2 years. After this wait "building company" proudly ( ) annouced that this new house wount be finished at all and another better house is beeing build because previous one was not good enought. The date of finishing new house was set on nov 2005. Then just before completion date "building company" annouced that house wount be finished till feb 2006 just to polish some thing and make house even better. Just before second completion date "building company" annoced once more that building will be finished at may 2006. The may release date was been meet but just after "locator" start to live in new house he realised that he has problem with lights , cable and dont have some parts of house that been promised. A disappointed locator called "building comany" and heard that house is not like he wanted because he keept pushing company to finish house earlier than it should be finished. Thats how i see it.

PS. i know my english is crapy but i hope you understad what i meant .

Edited August 13, 2006 by Joseph_Q

[Papa6]

@ Towangel, I'd have to point the finger at UBISOFT in this whole argument. I strictly remember when GR2 was being developed, UBISOFT then one day yanked the PC version from under our feet. boy, talk about a angry bunch of people.

Then we get word about GRIN or in general, the development of GRAW. we get some screens that seemed very promising and things seemed to look up again.

I recently read an article about Windows vista that the basic fundamental key point was and it relates to most companies in general was "companies can't begin to get a return on thier investment until a product( GRAW, Windows vista) are released." I think the release was profit motivated and not product quality since we can prove that the game was incomplete.

but the fact that alot of the dislike about GRAW has been the look and feel and the gameplay should be taken as a constructive criticism and not a hate of GRIN. This is the first GRIN title for us all and that first impression is a lasting one.

we do have aot of discriminating taste here in regards to AW.Think of it as that real let down you had when you went to a movie after so much hype, you get all excited about the next sequel because youknow that the last one was a killer movie. then you pay your money and come out completely deflated and think, that movie has nothing to do with what the series is about. If you've ever had that kind of feeling before then that is what most people are feeling down about.

I'm just trying to shape my comments in such a way that GRIN can see they may be better off making a FPS of thier own and won't have to be pressured into releasing a game before it's completion. that way they can talk directly to the fans and get feedback and say what they want about THIER game without some sort of NDA hamstringing them. I just hope Grin can take what I say exactly in that way.

[kretzj]

Yeah, sorry Angel. To say the players were responsible for a half-baked ship product is just plain silly. If anything, we showed incredible PATIENCE when we got screwed by GR2. We reset the clock and started the "patiently waiting" game all over again. Go back and read the forum posts... not just selected ones, mind you... I think most people would agree that the overall tone of this forum was one of extreme patience with UBI, and ESPECIALLY with GRiN, since we all knew they were new to this venture. We didn't hold GRiN to blame for GR2, as there was simply no reason to. UBI took flames, but honestly they should have.

But to say WE made them ship the game early is simply... well... stupid thinking. I'm sorry. It holds no logic.

I don't hold GRiN fully accountable, either. I think Ubi needed additional revenue stream for their quarterly financial reporting. By shipping GRAW they could claim both revenue AND a "win" for the financial forecasters and analysts because they knew we would plunk down $50 the VERY MINUTE the game was available. And we did.

As was pointed out, the demo fiasco to me tells a LOT of the story. Why ship a stripped demo so close to going gold? It certainly wasn't to get our feedback, as it was FAR too late for that. The production 1.0 code was probably already being baked for gold release. And the demo coming to us dumbed down is even more telling. If they had shipped a full MP Demo we would have seem what was coming and the revenue stream would have been reduced significantly.

Ubi. Money. It's all there, laid out before us.

I also question how long GRiN will continue to support us via patches such as we've seen to-date. Of course, no one knows the contract between Ubi and GRiN, but the budget has got to be running down. Will they slip a serious patch into a released "expansion pack"? That's my guess, but if you think I'm going to wait from May until October for them to finish the game, THEN be expected to pay an addition $19 or 29 dollars for the privilege, you (and Ubi and GRiN) are SADLY mistaken. Slapping a price tag on the next patch and calling it an expansion pack will kill GRAW in it's tracks. Done. Period.

Now, that being said, I'm going to say something even more dark and sinister. I hope that's what happens. Good old-fashioned supply and demand economics here. Do you want UBI to get the message from us? The only way to do that is by hitting them in the bank account. If they try the expansion pack route, DO NOT BUY IT. We're only feeding the very behavior that is screwing us. Resist the temptation and tell UBI, "We want our $50 game fixed for free". I don't mind them charging for new maps and content, but if it's mostly a patch and just a few new maps, we've been had, and everyone who buys it just tells UBI that this behavior is perfectly acceptable. I hope they do try to charge for it, and I hope enough of us stand up and say, "Hell no, we're not going to take it anymore".

What will happen? Good question. Will UBI be smart enough to strip the patch code out and release it as such? Perhaps. If enough of us resist the damned temptation as we stroll thru GameStop or shop online. Could UBI decide to just walk away from the product? Perhaps. But they will be screwing a very large demographic of game buyer, and I personally will never touch another UBI product again if we're treated that way.

I commend the GRiNners for their desire to hang around her with us and talk. I do wish that they would address more of these types of eMail threads, within the confines of the legal agreement I'm sure they have with UBI, rather than the soft and fluffy "Hi, my name is RocketBooty and I just LOVE you guys!" threads.

And if they're bound by that agreement to not talk about something, I personally wouldn't mind having Bo simply say "I'd love to comment, but legally I can't". He's protected, and it tells all of us that he's being choked by UBI. The real evil might finally be revealed.

Anyway, enough pontificating for a Sunday morning. My head hurts from all this thinking too early in the morning. Time for some [GR]....

-JK

Callsign 3Point

[sui317]

because if it were, why would we still be here, silly buns!

Yes - but for how much longer, silly willie How long before the budget runs out...

if we are nice and polite and helpfull to them maybe some might be here long after the budget is gone, we are here because we love the game or want to make it lovable

i think the people at grin are no quiters so when the budget runs out and they still love the game and us whiners then they might be here for longer because it is a great community and they are also a part of it

or they dont feel that way and run away when the money is gone, but that is unlikely in my eyes as seeing them here on sundays and late nights, sharing info and fun