why those kits?

[crlock]

is there a "way" to make your own kits on multiplayer, since you can pick up a dead guy's weapon. So let's say you pick up your usual m14 with the tac 45, a pretty usefull handgun for my taste, well you can choose that kit , and if you die, you can chose a diferent kit like hmmm a rifleman with an mp5 or another secondary weapon, well, as soon as you spawn again, you run like hell to where you got killed before, and switch your rifle for your old m14, now you have a submachine gun as your secondary weapon, and if you choose a demo kit, you have also a grenade and smoke, or you could just chose a demo kit, and run behind a noob sniper and when he gets killed you take his rifle. i do it all the time =D

[ita_killabees]

i dont think its a solution. selecting a kit picking up weapons from the ground. that is a "drastic" solution that should be taken in emergency.

XXX

Edited June 28, 2007 by ita_killabees

[Leadslinger]

Server sided option !!!

That would have been the most common sense approach. Let the host's decide on what kits/weapon combo's they want to allow while still allowing players to choose optional parts like reflex or Iron sights, forward grip/no forward grip. If I want a SCAR H with a forward grip, Iron sights and a silencer let me have it like n GRAW 1. I personally hate the GL because it is so implausible in it's current form so I won't miss it if it's not anywhere to be found in MP...that is unless they change it to reflect more realistic usage similar to America's Army. So sick of it being a panic button cqb tool.

[sniggle666]

I THIKN YOU guys are tkaing this way to far, the mp demo is probally the reason you can only have kits wait till the real deal comes out then start talkin bout kits cuz i mean come on the mp demo isnt the actuall game its just a taste a sight for sore eyes a piece of pie a ride on the new bike it isnt the whole big chalupa, the big cheese the big fantastica , artificial inseminating of a cow and horse rattish...come on blue big ol blue=u love me

[ita_killabees]

yeah the demo is not the game. i heard this before GRAW 1. and i found all problems of demo in GRAW the official game.

im dont believe the tale "the demo is very different from the full game" no more.

im sorry.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

well although i can be specific... the demo kit wise is an improvement over the beta's 4 kits. So the full i imagine will improve upon the demo

[th33f.]

ahem... now that the game is out, aren't the MP kits still ridiculous?

every other noob uses an M99 and to counter that with an AR you have to have a scope. great! that means i can never take a frag with me, or even a smoke nade. what were those beta testers thinking?

balance, you say? more like every kit is equally crippled. mind you, in RvsA mode, you get some very nice combos with higher ranks, but in tdm and siege we're like one-handed ######.

it seems obvious the majority of players did not approve this system, so why are we still stuck with it in 1.04?

the whole classes thing in GRAW2 is a disaster, imo. it's great for SP, but has no place in multiplayer. go back to the weight limit or make some better kits, GRIN. i shouldn't have to follow my Rifleman class teammates to if i want to use frags and be able to shoot at all!

[GR] did have kits and classes, but you'll agree they were a lot more diverse. i could have my SA80(WITH a scope) with pretty much any secondary, while snipers could carry frags and even claymores.

anyone playing this online should've realized by now that most maps are infested with camping snipers and the only antidote is a Scoped AR! but if i'm carrying an assault rifle - why am i not allowed to use explosives???

i really don't wanna wait for until an expansion for this fix. take care of it now, GRIN! hire new beta testers if you have to. sniper rifles need to be re-worked anyway. those kit selections are repulsive!

[RAbbi_74]

In their defense, GRIN appears to me to have used the kit selection as a response to something that some of us whined about in GRAW- the kit combinations got to be almost outrageous in GRAW.

Unfortunately, I think this went too far the wrong way. [DEADHORSE] Yes, [GR] had the kits just about nailed. [/DEADHORSE] The limits on explosives were certainly a response to community outcry about noobtubing spammers in GRAW, especially in some of the first-run TDM maps we got where you could drop nades directly into the rather open, unprotected enemy spawns from your spawn or almost any other spot on the map. We've clearly gone to far the wrong way here.

So somewhere between GRAW's unlimited kit selection and GRAW2's Nazi kit restrictions, there is a compromise that should satisfy the greatest number of players and minimize the boohooing.

Re-read that dead horse comment...

[Lethal.Ambition]

I don't see what the problem is.

If you want to bring a rifleman kit you will be given a strong (Read: Strong!) rifle that can make good long range shots. You can have a silencer on a few of them, and an aimpoint. Why explosives though? You're making long-rage assaults. Grenades belongs to Assault and Demolitions. They will be the ones in the CQB. Now, if you pick an assault kit, say, the MRC, why the hell should you be given an aimpoint and a grenade launcher and everything else?

No. That doesn't work. You can't have it all.

I can't believe some of you are asking for snipers to get explosives and an M8 Compact or whatever. What is the role of a sniper? To take out long range targets in one shot. If someone gets on your face then you bring out your pistol and try to kill him. If you fail, well... that's not your specialty is it?

[Papa6]

I don't see what the problem is.

If you want to bring a rifleman kit you will be given a strong (Read: Strong!) rifle that can make good long range shots. You can have a silencer on a few of them, and an aimpoint. Why explosives though? You're making long-rage assaults. Grenades belongs to Assault and Demolitions. They will be the ones in the CQB. Now, if you pick an assault kit, say, the MRC, why the hell should you be given an aimpoint and a grenade launcher and everything else?

No. That doesn't work. You can't have it all.

I can't believe some of you are asking for snipers to get explosives and an M8 Compact or whatever. What is the role of a sniper? To take out long range targets in one shot. If someone gets on your face then you bring out your pistol and try to kill him. If you fail, well... that's not your specialty is it?

I don't think people are asking for nades out of luxury rather necessity. sometimes it sucks when you are in your spot and hear a badguy near you. hit him with a nade is what they are asking for.

as for the M99, I've seen people use them for assaulting. they do the "A" typical thing you see these days and walk back and forth with a M99. perhaps having slower closing cross hairs would've helped? then the M99 wouldn't be so attractive.

now, [GR] also had "set" kits as well. a kit may have included a pistol in one, nades in another, sensor(s) in another. but you still have about 4 variations of the same weapon kit.

[th33f.]

I don't see what the problem is.

If you want to bring a rifleman kit you will be given a strong (Read: Strong!) rifle that can make good long range shots. You can have a silencer on a few of them, and an aimpoint. Why explosives though? You're making long-rage assaults. Grenades belongs to Assault and Demolitions. They will be the ones in the CQB. Now, if you pick an assault kit, say, the MRC, why the hell should you be given an aimpoint and a grenade launcher and everything else?

No. That doesn't work. You can't have it all.

I can't believe some of you are asking for snipers to get explosives and an M8 Compact or whatever. What is the role of a sniper? To take out long range targets in one shot. If someone gets on your face then you bring out your pistol and try to kill him. If you fail, well... that's not your specialty is it?

RvsA! Riflemen get GL's, frags and smoke with higher ranks! so is it their specialty after all? GRAW1 was a paradise of equipment selection, everyone loved it. why look back into the past, i don't know...

[FI_FlimFlam]

it seems obvious the majority of players did not approve this system, so why are we still stuck with it in 1.04?

Because it's not something that is easily patched. The whole Multiplayer game structure (not inlcluding campaign) is completely BASED on kits - coop included. Simply changing it wouldn't be easy. The only thing you could try is to essentially design so many kit variations that would address every possible loadout that people would want. It would then have to be offered by GRIN as an official patch. If a community member were to do it, it would have to be a mod and activated by the server and client.

If we can get off the kit vs complete freedom in weapons banter (because it's not going to change be it good or bad), the biggest problem right now with kits, is that there is absolutely NO freedom with them for either map makers or server administrators. The best scenario would be to allow the server administrator to set kits for their server. Provide a default kit xml that can be modified by the server operator. This file is uploaded to the client when attaching to the server. Of course it would have to be checked regularly during the game to prevent cheating but that should be a relatively simple thing (the file check) for the AC. The second best scenario that I can think of, would be to have GRIN move the xml's with the classes and kit definitions from the game bundles to the map bundles. This way map makers could determine custom kits or classes WITHOUT having handle them as "mods" requiring the servers and clients to activate the mod.

The classes are limiting, but the design of the whole system is CRIPPLING to choice and weapon restriction from a server operator and a players perspective.

[ruggbutt]

If you fixed the M99's quick shouldering and quick closing rets as well as make the arm distance of the g/l 30 meters then you'd fix 95% of the problems with the kits.

I think overall GRIN did a great job w/the kits.

[FI_FlimFlam]

I don't have a major problem with kits. I would prefer not to have them in coop but can live with them. The issue I have is the lengths players and server admins have to goto for a little choice if they want to change some of them.... The system is completely broken in that regard.

[Nutlink]

The kits aren't too bad, but they could use some tuning. For example, why do the Assault and Rifleman kits that hold the M8 have the exact same thing (M8 with silencer and scope and a MP5SD) EXCEPT one has a smoke and a frag while the other is just guns, so why take not get the nades and smoke too?

[Papa6]

The kits aren't too bad, but they could use some tuning. For example, why do the Assault and Rifleman kits that hold the M8 have the exact same thing (M8 with silencer and scope and a MP5SD) EXCEPT one has a smoke and a frag while the other is just guns, so why take not get the nades and smoke too?

also most soldiers carry frags anyway as standard TOE. so rifleman should carry some nades. why do we have to give up our scopes for wanting a GL?

[Nutlink]

The same reason it was done in [GR]...balance?

[Papa6]

The same reason it was done in [GR]...balance?

then perhaps balance cannot be achieved in a game? heavy weapons squads in my unit carried frags, ammo, the weapons and tripods. rifleman all carried frags standard. grenadiers carried GL nades and m67 frags(back in my day) so balance seems kind of a null point in games.

[Nutlink]

So just because of your military experience you're saying the game cannot be balanced? I beg to differ. Realism isn't ALWAYS the best thing in a game like this. The gameplay itself already lends itself towards a less than realistic feel, why not fit the kits around the gameplay?

[Papa6]

that kinda depends. but for a growing number of NORG gamers or those who search out NORG, depends on what the devs make the game like.

added: @ nutlink: anything is possible. but like blackfoot studios says in one of it's banners;

seems good enough for me. but yeah nutlink. whatever works

Edited September 13, 2007 by Papa6

[Fletch]

So just because of your military experience you're saying the game cannot be balanced? I beg to differ. Realism isn't ALWAYS the best thing in a game like this. The gameplay itself already lends itself towards a less than realistic feel, why not fit the kits around the gameplay?

For Multi-Player even though I would want no restrictions I can see the advantages of doing that. However for CoOp play there should be no restrictions other than what the team leader sets up or the tourneys decide to do.

[Nutlink]

As it's been stated before, when it comes to coop it's there to force people to work as a team. Coop players fail to realize that if they have a variety of classes that they can take down anything easily. Snipers for cover, Riflemen for mid range support, Assaults for smoke screens and CQB, and Demolitions for blowing up enemies behind cover. Instead they just want it all for themselves, ie a silenced SCAR-L with a GL and scope, a MP5SD for a secondary and frags. I support the kits, and while they may have been better off as an option, I don't think many servers would have used them, making the game even more redundant.

[FI_FlimFlam]

Unfortunately, when pubbing around and not on coms, it doesn't do that. It offers nothing for the most part in promoting teamwork. Sure when people can communicate prior to the round starting or on coms and can work out who is going to play what role in the squad, it can work. But come on, how many times on random public servers do you actually see that happening. Even on my own server if I ask people to do that, on a small percentage of people actually give a flip about what the "team" needs. Really the only time it actually gets used in that capacity is when someone specifically starts begging for someone to get a RPG on quarry because no one picked demo #13. Or on serria when it might be easier to frag the commander and you need someone with a frag or GL to do it. Other than that, 99% of the time players just pick their favorite kit and go.

The one thing that actually seemed to promote some teamwork in coop without an admin forcing it, was the squads from GRAW. Many times, you would naturally hook up and work together especially when the SL was acting as a forward spawn point. This just seem naturally to encourage it more. Not that it meant people would always work more together, but that so far playing coop, I have yet to see anywhere near the level of teamwork from random players as I did from GRAW. From my experience, the kits do not actually promote teamwork, rather someone asking for help or strict "teamwork" rules enforced by an admin does.

[Fletch]

As it's been stated before, when it comes to coop it's there to force people to work as a team. Coop players fail to realize that if they have a variety of classes that they can take down anything easily. Snipers for cover, Riflemen for mid range support, Assaults for smoke screens and CQB, and Demolitions for blowing up enemies behind cover. Instead they just want it all for themselves, ie a silenced SCAR-L with a GL and scope, a MP5SD for a secondary and frags. I support the kits, and while they may have been better off as an option, I don't think many servers would have used them, making the game even more redundant.

Sorry maybe its me But I don't think you understand CoOp play the way its meant to be played. What I and other CoOp players are talking about is a Team based game play where you enter your team in to CoOp tournments the Tourney leaders set up the maps and ROE and the team leaders then set up their teams based on the orders given to them by the tourney leaders. The team leader sets up each team and tells them what weapons to pick based on the mission, and they practice as a team all the time. The players don't really have a choice except on open servers.

You seem to be focused on Open Server CoOp play which is not the same and never will be because of too many Rambo's.

[Nutlink]

I don't think it's the kits so much as it is coop itself though. The "top" player is based off of kills, there is no good scoring system for kill assists, objective completions, least deaths, destroyed vehicles, things like that. Combine a good scoring system for coop with the ability to form up into squads and, this is key, give orders (ROE, waypoints, cover zones, etc). I don't care if it's like the cross com or the old [GR] map. Once that's done the only thing left is ingame comms or TS/Vent integration.

Oh, and I support kits to avoid the Rambo gameplay