Sniping from a helicopter

[Foxtrot360]

... Another question for a text based roleplaying forum (need accuracy)

Shooting from a helicopter (or sniping, more likely)

More specifically with a M1a Scout?

Edited November 22, 2005 by Foxtrot23

[WhiteKnight77]

While I haven't seen it done or heard of it happening it doesn't mean it hasn't, but as someone with helo experience, I can tell it would not be a stable platform to snipe from. Trying to relieve myself on the back ramp was always fun as the back of the bird seemed to move in circles (()). Trying to snipe while hovering brings on all sorts of dangers to the bird and crew along with the rest on board.

[Specter]

While it may be done, like WK, I have never heard of it, except in that movie "Sniper", where the kid was mistakenly given credit for hitting a target 100 meters out form a helo with a PSG-1.

Bullets are, despite the destruction they can inflict, pretty frail, and the trajectories even frailer, and extremely susceptible to outside influence. Even a 5MPH wind.

Now, sit in the door of a helo or even the back ramp. Take a gun with a light bullet weight that is popular for sniping these days like a 55 grain .223 or the military 168 grain .308 sniper round or even the standard 150 grain .308 load(Here is a weight reference to give you an idea of bullet weight: a 750 Grain 12 gauge slug weighs an ounce), and fire it towards the ground(Remember: Shooting down is more difficult to do accurately than shooting up. requires a whole differnet set of variables), and try to take a shot shooting down, through the rotor backwash, and the usually not to smooth flight of a helo.

Now think about that, and these are just a couple of factors to consider, and think what your chances of hitting anything are, trying to use a single shot, sniper methodology.

Hell, think of the reticule movement on your scope alone, or even trying to keep iron sites together for an accurate shot with that much wind and vibration.

I'm not saying that it has never been successfully done, but it is certainly on the list of "Most impractical ways" to snipe.

And let's just say that the odds are nowhere close to being in your favor.

I would have to say that if you made an effective sniper shot from a helo, that it was pure luck, and nothing more.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Specter

[KillingJoke]

Yes it is done, BUT you would not really call it sniping. More like supporting and harassing fire.

Real sniping, (that means accuracy) needs a stable platform like WK77 said. Helos are not really stable at all times, therefore you can't really call it sniping.

Hope this helps.

[the.ronin]

So the the helos "providing sniper cover" in Black Hawk Down is fairly inaccurate?

[Specter]

So the the helos "providing sniper cover" in Black Hawk Down is fairly inaccurate?

←

In BHD, the helo had the pair of Snipers on it, but they weren't actually providing sniper cover from the helo, that I remember. They had requested to be inserted to protect the wreck till DF and the Rangers could get there.

But I don't remember them actually sniping from the chopper.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Specter

[KillingJoke]

So the the helos "providing sniper cover" in Black Hawk Down is fairly inaccurate?

←

No, they are providing supporting, cover, and harassing fire. Use whatever term you would like. The big problem is the word 'sniping'. It is a deliberate art of controlled-accurate-deadly fire (if you are shooting at human targets, remember, there is also sniping at vehicels and other hardened objects for example).

I guess you can say the BHD snipers were just "shooting at" targets. Actually, I have to see that movie again to give you any more info.

We have to differ from "shooting at" and actually "sniping". I tried to use as simple terms as possible so everyone can understand. Did it work?

[Specter]

It could also mean that the helo was providing cover for the snipers.

Hollywood unfortunately has to balance accuracy of the story and terms with entertainment value, sort of like the gaming industry.

Realism is great to a certain point. But if it has no entertainment value, it won't sell.

Sort of like the accuracy of GR compared to VBS1.

VBS1 is a military trainer, and in that sense, is highly accurate, and not really built for entertainment, except for the hardcore TAC Sim enthusiast.

GR, while accurate in alot of respect, was entertaining in other areas, more than accurate.

Example: The accuracy of weapons' choices in GR left alot to the imagination, versus accuracy.

[the.ronin]

No, they never shot out from the helos ... I just remember a line from one of the chopper pilots something to the effect of ... "This is Super Six One moving into position for sniper cover."

[KillingJoke]

May be Specter understood Ronins Q better. A helo can provide "covering" fire for the team as they exited out the aircraft. But that is a very brief time. Snipers don't like ANYBODY around when they go to work. A helo with rotor wash is a BIG distraction!!

This of course has nothing more to do with the original post. And if I recall, the M1 Scout is a Springfield Armory (civi) product and was not in use by the US military.

M14-M21, yes.

Gee, I hope we did't scare Foxtrot away

[Specter]

May be Specter understood Ronins Q better. A helo can provide "covering" fire for the team as they exited out the aircraft. But that is a very brief time. Snipers don't like ANYBODY around when they go to work. A helo with rotor wash is a BIG distraction!!

This of course has nothing more to do with the original post. And if I recall, the M1 Scout is a Springfield Armory (civi) product and was not in use by the US military.

M14-M21, yes.

Gee, I hope we did't scare Foxtrot away 

←

The M1A Scout is indeed an SA product, as is the M-14/M-21.

The M-14 is produced by Springfield Armory for the Military, and in most cases is modded to the M-21 by Us Military Armorers.

There are some other producers of the civilian M1A such as Norinco, but they aren't near the quality that the Springfield is. Also, back during the Korean War, I believe some models were made by Smith Corona, which I believe has been gone for some time now. They used to manufacture typewriters and office equipment in days long past.

M1A is the civilian designation for the M14. THe only difference is, that the M1A doesn't have the selector switch that the M14 had.

In fact, all parts between the M1A, the M14, the M1A National Match, and the M21 are interchangeable with Military surplus parts for the gun, except in cases with the M21 where it was modified by armorers, and may require a different part, and this would mostly be found in the trigger and receiver parts.

The M1A Scout rifle is an M1A/M14 with an 18 inch barrel versus the 24 inch factory barrel.

Also, the newer M1A's(post assault rifle ban), and the scouts do not carry the military flash suppressor, as it is illegal now(God only knows why), although it can be found on pre-ban rifles, and can be found at gunshows and gun shops, and added as a replacement to the one in use now.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Specter

[Foxtrot360]

lol

Well then M14...

BTW I kinda had a bit of a bhdish refer in my first post i think its more of a suppressive thing or spray n pray... then again if a blackhawk has miniguns i dont see why i tried lol

Edited November 23, 2005 by Foxtrot23

[WhiteKnight77]

Spectre brings up a very valid poing about wind velocities. The rotor wash from a helo can be be in the 30+know range. That is more than enough to push a 7.62 round from a sniper rifle off target (do not mix this up with mini-guns shooting the same size round, while the same diameter, they are aimed and shot differently).

As I said, sniping from a helo is not really feasable.

[Billy Bongwater]

Quote WK77

"Trying to relieve myself on the back ramp was always fun as the back of the bird seemed to move in circles (()) "

Wouldn't that be considered sniping?

[WhiteKnight77]

I always tried to aim for the roller track (about 4 inches wide). I wonder how much landed in the pools dotting the landscape below?

[Hatchetforce]

Yes, sniping from helos is done. It came to prominence for us in Somalia and has been utilized since.

[Suicide Commando]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/alb...N_2381V_001.jpg

[Foxtrot360]

ah ha! I knew it.. Thanks to the Hatchetforce!

I guess that photo answers the rifle question (its a Colt Commando, wow!)

Edited November 25, 2005 by Foxtrot23

[snared_gambit]

Yes, sniping from helos is done. It came to prominence for us in Somalia and has been utilized since.

←

Gotta take some real skill to get it done from a chopper. It's hard enough for me to hit something that's moving or standing still when I'm shooting from a stand still, let alone having from a moving helicopter. Guess SF guys can do it though.

One of the proudest and most memorable moments from my Delta Force Black Hawk Down gaming experience was sniping a guy from a moving MH-6 with the M21. Good times. Total fluke though.

[KillingJoke]

Yes it is done, BUT you would not really call it sniping. More like supporting and harassing fire.

Real sniping, (that means accuracy) needs a stable platform like WK77 said. Helos are not really stable at all times, therefore you can't really call it sniping.

Hope this helps.

←

Like I said. But, please note that it is not real sniper work, as a trained sniper would classify it.

"Sniping" is a loose and general term that defines slower, aimed, deliberate fire. It is NOT sniper fire.

I hope that is it on this subject, it's getting beat to death.

[Marcinko]

In Afghanistan there have been multiple confirmed kills from the backs of ######hooks.

[Hatchetforce]

Following doctrine, snipers are employed to support a larger element, rather than as Hollywood would have you believe - running solo. Rather than only removing specific targets, their value is as much psychological as it is directly interdictive.

The SF Sniper is a selected volunteer specially trained in advanced marksmanship and fieldcraft skills. He can support Special Operations Missions and is able to engage selected targets at ranges and under conditions not possible for the normal rifleman.

The small paragraph above is doctrine. Shots from helos qualify as sniping. Look at the sniper missions. UW - Unconventional Warfare, FID - Foreign Internal Defense, IO - Information Operations, DA - Direct Action, SR - Special Recon, CBT - Combatting Terrorism, CP - Counter Proliferation.

Ranged targets are engaged with precision fire. The Sniper also gathers intelligence, and provides traing to others. There is a vast difference between riding in a helo and opening up on a roof top with a mini-gun, and engaging targets with precision from a helo. One is sniping, the other is suppression. And sniper fire under certain conditions can also act as suppression.

[pz3]

Discovery or history channel showed a great video (if im not mistaking like a 5 part sniper series)

one of them was how it does play on the moral of the enemy... in one case they showed ... in either yemen or iraq not sure. Some guys were protesting outside of a us base and over a weeks time kept getting more and more violent, with one single shot they shot the "leader" of this group and things settled down real quick.

wasnt much going on there after that.

[Foxtrot360]

Well, this is all cleared up, Ive found my information for the designated marksman / sniper (Special Forces)

[FA sear]

From a Helo eh? That is a new one to me.