Collateral Murder

[Marcinko]

....this war with...

Sorry...did I miss something? Did the U.S. actually declare war on Iraq?

DS

So when a tornado tears through a town in the mid west and destroys tons of homes and businesses, and isn't declared a state of emergency, does that mean it isn't one?

war (wôr)n.

1.

a. A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.

b. The period of such conflict.c. The techniques and procedures of war; military science.

2.

a. A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.

b. A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.

intr.v. warred, war·ring, wars

1. To wage or carry on warfare.2. To be in a state of hostility or rivalry; contend.

Idiom: at war

The Global WAR on Terror

The WAR in Iraq

The WAR in Afghanistan

There may not of ever been an official declaration of war, but I declared it one. Through my 5 deployments (see bullet 1.a prolonged) and plethora of firefights (see bullet 1.a conflict) against al-qaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan (see bullet 1.a parties), I judge it as a war without declaration.

[wombat50]

Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Iraq_Resolution_of_2002

[Dick Splash]

I judge it as a war without declaration.

Thanks, that's all I was after.

I wonder then, if after the 8th of May1945 that during the Allied and Soviet occupation of the former Nazi Germany, had the civilian population violently resisted the occupation, would the Allies and Soviets still have been at war with Germany?

DS

[NoQuarter]

I wonder then, if after the 8th of May1945 that during the Allied and Soviet occupation of the former Nazi Germany, had the civilian population violently resisted the occupation, would the Allies and Soviets still have been at war with Germany?

First, technically the Soviets were a member of the Allies and second, yes they would have, and third, they were still at war with Germany post unconditional surrender -in a technical sense (See: WWII; Germany, Occupation of; Werewolves & Vampires).

[Dick Splash]

...and third, they were still at war with Germany post unconditional surrender -in a technical sense (See: WWII; Germany, Occupation of; Werewolves & Vampires).

I wouldn't say that. I've read very little about the Nazi Wolverines and I've seen one or two photos tops. And from memory they were children with Panzerfausts, which TBH is scary enough. I'm sure the civilian population were war-weary enough to back such an organisation. It does make you think though, after the country was consumed by the regime for twelve years, why a Nazi underground didn't flourish. Imagine dealing with all that Cold War BS and having to tackle terrorists until at least the fifties? Sounds like a book there.

DS

[NoQuarter]

@DS:

The (German) papers of the time ('45-'47) were filled with articles of volk going missing in the dark of night and if they (collaborators or agitators -never very clear which) were ever found it was usually with an unhappy result. Depending on the source they were either A; done in by the Werewolves or B; spirited off in the back of a GMC to parts unknown.

The Occupation Forces Command was not exactly interested in telegraphing any discontent but if you look hard enough you can find accounts of M8 armored cars duking it out with organised groups making their last stand in some potato cellar...soldiers terminally relieved of their weapons, supply trucks being ambushed, etc.

The vastly limited scale and lesser intensity might have something to do with the facts that Germany was well aware by then of what awaited them from east of the Vistula should the western powers depart,and that half of the Fatherlands surviving male population were preoccupied elsewhere...eating the remainer of their jackboots in one of our Ally Uncle Joes' gulags.

The cessation of major offensive operations did not then -nor does it today- ever mean the cessation of conflict -or to parse it if you choose- war.

And since when is killing human beings or running over dead bodies with a tank a laughing matter - as repeatedly demonstrated during the radio transmissions?

Once war takes away all of our decency and compassion there's no point in waging it - because it is already lost.

Have you never heard of gallows humor? Do you happen to know just how many tours or how many sorties these guys have done/flown?

Pretty quick to judge are'nt we.

____

You could be on to something though...if we were to wire up and mic every swinging Richard out there we would never even have to leave the contonment areas. Just rewind and review the tapes, announce the war lost before conducting it, and feel really confused about our lack of decency and compassion...safe at home.

Nah.

[Dick Splash]

The Occupation Forces Command was not exactly interested in telegraphing any discontent but if you look hard enough you can find accounts of M8 armored cars duking it out with organised groups making their last stand in some potato cellar...soldiers terminally relieved of their weapons, supply trucks being ambushed, etc.

That would have been a site and I'm sure black marketeering didn't help matters either. Fighting was vicious right to the end, so I'm sure the Allies were a bit jittery for some time after.

DS

[pz3]

I didn't watch it but I think I can kind of understand what happened.

I just want to Laugh Out Loud!

Jesus, sometimes being a soldier (or pilot in this case???) It takes a little bit of courage to make a call like that. Dead gunmen with a few dead civilians or just let the gunmen run loose? How does one weight life??? Sorry, maybe Marcinko and a few others made this call before but for the rest of you. Probably won't quiet understand why that news reporters life is deemed expendable.

Edited July 3, 2010 by pz3

[Big]

I don't think lifes are "expendable" as you say. Anyways, I understand the situation that happened there.

And of course if there is a war and you move with one of the sides you risk your life, that's obvious. There is no other way, cause even if there is a war and you move with no sides your chances of being killed increase a considerable amount.

My only point was that the responsible of the death was the crew. Cause they fired. I never said they didn't "look for it", but the one who shot was the crew and that's a fact.

Maybe i could have avoided my obvious contempt to that war. I would say any war, even if i understand what's going on. I couldn't place my self in a pacifist position cause I'm not a person who thinks "turn the other cheek" is a good solution/option. I just can't have an idea what i would do in some situations if i had to take the decisions.

[Marcinko]

@Big

I'd be curious to see your cheek turning abilities after 20 people fly aircraft into buildings in your country, killing 3000 of your citizens.

It gets real fin easy pretty damn quick.

[Big]

Not sure you understand what i said, cause i clearly said I'm not into that "turning cheek" stuff. Or probably since i don't speak English very well i didn't express myself correctly.

Anyways, u have nothing to teach to an Spanish about terrorism unfortunately.

[Marcinko]

Yes, 9/11 has happened many a time in Spain.

[Big]

Luckily no, it didn't happen in that magnitude.

But lets no start a "mine is bigger". If you like to measure things in that way you are wrong as i see it.

Maybe you think terrorism started on 9/11, or those Kenya attacks to USA embassy (or whatever).

Edited July 4, 2010 by Big

[Marcinko]

Here's the deal. You claim I have nothing to teach Spaniards about terrorism. I can teach all damn day about combat. I have deployed 5 times with the 3rd Ranger Battalion filling many different roles. I would never justify calling anyone a murderer in combat unless I was there.

Especially when your source is a fascist liberal media site that tries to expose the U.S. Military as bad.

Responsible knowledge, logos, pathos and ethos.

Furthermore, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it doesn't take a genius to realize what terrorism is, and that it has been around long before you and I were even thought of.

[Parabellum]

Big and co:

I think you're missing what Marcinko and PZ are saying. They've been in combat. Have you? 90% of the fools in the media have probably never served. Those eggheads have neither the right nor the perspective to judge what they're seeing when they see combat footage. Really, it's no different than the eggheads on TV who sit back and judge cops who get into shootouts, when those same reporters have never put their lives in danger. I cringe every time I listen to some idiot in the grocery store criticizing cops. In fact, some fool in Publix the other evening was criticizing two cops here in town who shot and killed a gangbanging P.O.S. who shot at them first, striking and wounding both deputies. He said "Why couldn't they shoot the gun out of his hand?" I can't type my response to him here, but I assure you that he got the message. I've seen people calling both deputies murderers, or worse. It's pathetic, really. Most people have no idea what our public servants go through, and you know what? It's pretty damn easy to see how much more character the people serve us have, than the ######ing morons in the media. In spite of being largely unappreciated, the people who keep us safe keep right on doing their jobs, and protecting the very ######stains that badmouth them.

[Marcinko]

Big and co:

I think you're missing what Marcinko and PZ are saying. They've been in combat. Have you? 90% of the fools in the media have probably never served. Those eggheads have neither the right nor the perspective to judge what they're seeing when they see combat footage. Really, it's no different than the eggheads on TV who sit back and judge cops who get into shootouts, when those same reporters have never put their lives in danger. I cringe every time I listen to some idiot in the grocery store criticizing cops. In fact, some fool in Publix the other evening was criticizing two cops here in town who shot and killed a gangbanging P.O.S. who shot at them first, striking and wounding both deputies. He said "Why couldn't they shoot the gun out of his hand?" I can't type my response to him here, but I assure you that he got the message. I've seen people calling both deputies murderers, or worse. It's pathetic, really. Most people have no idea what our public servants go through, and you know what? It's pretty damn easy to see how much more character the people serve us have, than the ######ing morons in the media. In spite of being largely unappreciated, the people who keep us safe keep right on doing their jobs, and protecting the very ######stains that badmouth them.

I was doing a summons paper a few weeks ago, the paper was a follow on to a paper I served the day before. The days prior paper was prefaced by shots fired. I drove erratically through the area checking for victims or any suspects. The day after I came back to do the follow on, I was adressed by a concerned citizen. Claimed I was driving to fast, told me I needed to slow down. I had the urge to tell him next time there's shots fired in his back yard I'd take my sweet ass time. But, I digress.

[Big]

I guess i didn't express correctly, if i could do it in Spanish you would understand me.

I have no sources, not fascism not any other. I didn't see the footage, nor pics nor anything. Maybe you didn't realize i didn't start the topic, nor mentioned it at all. I didn't comment on it, i just "commented" a post about who actually was the responsible of the dead of that people. Did i say they had to be hang or whatever?, no. Did i call them cold blood murderers?, did i say i wouldn't do it if i was walking in their shoes?, no. I would probably do the same, I would be sorry for them but i wouldn't wait for them to shoot or not to actually know if they are trying to kill me or not.

But that's not the case and probably will never be, I've never be in the army not even the forced military training period you had to pass here in Spain. I skipped till it i could, knowing there would be a time when it wasn't needed anymore, as it's now.

I don't care about those journalists, i really don't mind. Why should i care about their life?, are they more important than any of millions(or thousands) who dies each day by not having something to eat or an stupid medicament cause they have no money?

My only mistake was to add some words which didn't add anything and only could "start" a discussion. I've never commented on these things cause i knew what would happen, but i made a mistake and here it is.

____________________________________________________________________

About what you comment of some people talking without knowledge, i don't think it's cause your are cop or something,or only happens in that situation. It's cause they are simply stupid. You don't need to wait to reach those situations to actually see it, many people doesn't know what the brain is for. In the cases you comment it's even "worst" cause you even criticize someone who making his job is risking his life.

[pz3]

Did I just get called stupid?

Big, Wisdom is only gained through experience. There are millions of training manuals about being a soldier, NOTHING will ever replace an experienced soldier. You will never know that experience to make a judgment call, to fight in combat, to have a bullet fly by your head unless you do it Big. You can't learn it in a book and imagining it is no better then playing a video game.

Your on a 2 way range, its you or the other guy and maybe a guy in the middle sometimes.

You can kill the bad guys today with the loss of innocence, or possibly face losing your life or your buddies tomorrow. Because I promise you they will be back with that RPG.

Edited July 5, 2010 by pz3

[Big]

I don't get what u said. I guess i typed something wrong before if you think i call you, or any other person I'm chatting with, anything.

I didn't call you anything. I said people acting selfish are simply stupid. And i was talking about that situations where people said they should have shot to the pistol, or drive slowly... mentioned in other posts. Probably i made a mistake in some you which should be a they in the sentence.

And the end of your post it's exactly what i said before: I would probably do the same, I would be sorry for them but i wouldn't wait for them to shoot or not to actually know if they are trying to kill me or not..

[pz3]

I had to read your posts again.I understood it a little better this time. big

*edit*

Just watched the video. Yep, wrong time to try talking to an insurgent for an interview. Sorry about ya luck partna!

Edited July 5, 2010 by pz3

[Big]

I'm suffering with my English

I have hard times trying to express what i want and most of the time the words sound correct in my head but probably to a native they sound weird and even with other meaning that the one i wanted to express.

Also the non-gender of the English language doesn't help me so much

[WytchDokta]

Especially when your source is a fascist liberal media site that tries to expose the U.S. Military as bad.

This happens all the time, if the media don't like something they expose it as bad. There's been several reports on certain websites about how Facebook is bad, why you should quit Facebook - the irony is, these certain websites not only report world news but also own social networking subdomains of their own, even have email services etc. So you see the bigger picture - expose rivals as bad to attract more business to yourself (the same website also publishes almost daily random articles about how bad men are and how much more superior women are.)

It's the same with books/video games etc. Just because there's 5-star mini-review on the cover of a book doesn't mean the book is any good. Have you ever wondered why you never see any negative mini-reviews on the front of these books/video games? It's not hard to see the answer.

IMO, most media sources enhance/subtract parts of articles for the 'greater good.' They are controlled by controllers that ironically enough, are also controlled. Control? No thanks, I'll Alt+Delete.

Edited July 5, 2010 by WytchDokta

[Big]

lol, nice words phrase game there

But you are right, money $$$--€€€ is what controls everything.

[Marcinko]

Were far off topic here Big, and there is clearly a language barrier as you are not understanding me, and possibly vice versa. If you would like to continue in pm's, by all means do so.

[NoQuarter]

Context.

Multi-National Corps – Iraq

Public Affairs Office, Camp Victory

APO AE 09342

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

RELEASE No. 20070713-01

July 13, 2007

Firefight in New Baghdad; US, Iraqi forces kill 9 insurgents, detain 13

2nd IBCT, 2nd Inf. Div. Public Affairs

FORWARD OPERATING BASE LOYALTY, Iraq — Multi-National Division – Baghdad Soldiers, with their Iraqi Security Force counterparts, killed nine insurgents and detained 13 more after coming under fire July 12 in the New Baghdad District of eastern Baghdad.

Soldiers of 1st Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, and the 2nd Battalion, 16th Infantry Regiment, both operating in eastern Baghdad under the 2nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, along with their Iraqi counterparts from the 1st Battalion, 4th Brigade, 1st Division National Police, were conducting a coordinated raid as part of a planned operation when they were attacked by small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. Coalition Forces returned fire and called in attack aviation reinforcement.

Nine insurgents were killed in the ensuing firefight. One insurgent was wounded and two civilians were killed during the firefight.

The two civilians were reported as employees for the Reuters news service.

"There is no question that Coalition Forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force," said Lt. Col Scott Bleichwehl, spokesperson and public affairs officer for MND-B.

The command's thoughts are with the families of the civilians who were killed during the combat action.

The incident is under investigation.

____

I wonder what type of whistle-blowing PFC Manning will be up to in the stockade once the investigation is concluded.

http://www.msnbc.msn...ience-security/

Edited July 6, 2010 by NoQuarter