GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 As some may already have noticed I'm putting together a mod for GRAW2 in my spare time, so I would like to start a discussion about ideas for classes and how they could be balanced. I'm gonna make a few different ranks combinations of these classes, so not all of them should be available at the same time with the exception of the "all classes" ranks version of course, and I'm also gonna include ranks restrictions with only 1 class for special needs... like sniper only TDM. First step, forget about the original classes, this is a clean slate. Second step, as I want to create an easy way to remove certain aspects of the arsenal with different ranks, I want to divide everything into as many classes as possible. Clip amounts are not important right now, that's a later balancing act. So right now I've been thinking something like this: EDIT: Updated list Rifleman - Assault Rifle, Secondary, Smoke - Assault Rifle, Sidearm, Frag Marksman - Assault Rifle w/ Optics & Frontgrip, Sidearm - Assault Rifle w/ Optics, Sidearm w/ Silencer Scout - Assault Rifle w/ Silencer & Frontgrip, Sidearm, Smoke - Assault Rifle w/ Silencer, Secondary, Smoke Assault - Assault Rifle w/ GL, Sidearm CQB - Secondary, Sidearm, Frag, Smoke Tracker - Secondary w/ Silencer, Smoke, Heartbeat Scrambler - Secondary w/ Silencer & Optics, Smoke, Scrambler Demolition - Secondary, Sidearm w/ Silencer, Frag, Demo Skill +2 - Secondary w/ Silencer, Sidearm, Frag, Demo Skill +2 Anti-Tank - Secondary w/ Optics, Zeus, Frag, Demo Skill +1 - Secondary w/ Optics, RPG, Demo Skill +1 Sniper - Sniper Rifle, Secondary - Sniper Rifle, Sidearm, Smoke Counter-Sniper - Sniper Rifle w/ Silencer - Assault Rifle w/ Silencer & Optics Support - Machine Gun, Secondary, Smoke, Scrambler - Machine Gun, Sidearm, Frag, Scrambler Special notes: Explosive amounts are going to be limited to avoid grenade spamming of course. 1-2 tops per kit tops, with exception for demo and anti-tank which I planed to have 3 as he doesn't have a primary weapon. The Counter-Sniper has been given no additional equipment besides his rifle simply because they are really really hard to find with no muzzle flash and no loud noise, so their drawback is that they don't have any other equipment. Special Classes: (not included in the balance above and only for different special modes) Hitman - Sidearm, Frag Assassin - Sidearm w/ Silencer, Smoke Grenadier - M32 Any other ideas or suggestions for adjustment or additions? I have a few other classes which will not be able to be combined with these as they are sidearm only and such. But let's keep this discussion on normal MP classes that can be balanced against each other for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightspeed Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 good thinking wolf. not a big kits person myself - i dont know enuff about weapons to put much input. i have found in the past that someitmes there are just too many combinations - such as some of the modded GR series. needs to be a manageable number. the most important thing for me though is that there should be a DEMO/C4 specialist - that way in a tournament environment - you need to protect him/them. to allow anyone to place C4 takes away from the teamwork - if you fial a mission by losing your C4 specialists then it brings teamwork back in to complete ovjectives while better protectng operatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quekel Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 I would like to see a rifleman with smoke Rx4, scope, Silencer , G18 Smoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 I would like to see a rifleman with smoke smile.gif Could be possible to have the option of smoke instead of frag. I'll blance it like the support class, secondary and smoke or sidearm and frag. Rx4, scope, Silencer , G18 Smoke First, that wouldn't be a rifleman as he has a scope. Second it wouldn't be a rifleman as he has a silencer. Third, that would be an uber kit which can't be balanced against. Scope and silencer is a no no together unless I take away everything else like I did with the counter-sniper. Balancing the kits is the important issue for MP to be fun, everyone has to have a strength and a weakness. Overpowering only leads to boredom in the longrun. i have found in the past that someitmes there are just too many combinations - such as some of the modded GR series. needs to be a manageable number. That's what I want to try and get away from by defining classes that will always have the same kit combinations to be used as a first selection process for the user. One he/she has selected which type of weapon combo they want, it's on to looking through the kits themselves. That way keeping the kit number for each class down. the most important thing for me though is that there should be a DEMO/C4 specialist - that way in a tournament environment - you need to protect him/them. to allow anyone to place C4 takes away from the teamwork - if you fial a mission by losing your C4 specialists then it brings teamwork back in to complete ovjectives while better protectng operatives. Good idea. I'm thinking of switching some names again... Assault will be the class with GL. Demo will be the class with secondary and frags, and also better C4 skills then the rest. How about that? Or should the "planter" class have even less of an arsenal? Maybe just Secondary and frags + the planting skill? EDIT: Just remembered that I need an "anti-tank" class. He should have planting skill as well as RPG/Zeus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) i think for counter snipers there should be scoped & silenced rifles in the kit and nothing more, then for the sniper rifle in the counter sniper section one hand grenade to equal the field of that section. as counter sniper with sniper rifle it would be nice to frag some dug in sniper, or defend oneself with a nade when in a hot spot smoke would do nice as well as a marker ..... but only for the single shot counter sniper, the automatic counter sniper would and should be happy with the rate of fire function.... don't know if you like this idea, but thought it was worth a "shot" *edit* demo only the ODD weapons & C4 and a secondairy with frag and smoke ? Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 Updated the list with modifications from the discussions so far. i think for counter snipers there should be scoped & silenced rifles in the kit and nothing more, then for the sniper rifle in the counter sniper section one hand grenade to equal the field of that section. as counter sniper with sniper rifle it would be nice to frag some dug in sniper, or defend oneself with a nade when in a hot spot smoke would do nice as well as a marker ..... but only for the single shot counter sniper, the automatic counter sniper would and should be happy with the rate of fire function.... don't know if you like this idea, but thought it was worth a "shot" Edit: I totally miss reed your post. It could be an idea. demo only the ODD weapons & C4 and a secondairy with frag and smoke ? Define odd weapon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) zeus and rpg (those that look odd) no i am not thinking of m35... unless you want arti support class Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 zeus and rpg (those that look odd) no i am not thinking of m35... unless you want arti support class That would make the demo kind of like I had in mind (updated list above), but I left out the smoke. Forgot about the M32... I think it's not a good MP weapon either for TvT/PvP or Coop though. Totally nutty. But I'll make a special class/kit for that in the extra kits along with the Hitman/Assassin kits for guns only and such. All good input so far. Keep it coming. Added the special classes outside the balance system to the first topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) i love that weapon in coop campaign but those work without kits in coop it could work if the enviorment was right for it like multiple vehicles and .50cal bottlenecks as for in TvT i don't think it is any good, i can see the headlines now on the front page of gr.net m35 awareness week ......(hmm on second thought, we are a week short of awareness ) it might have TvT use after all.... in a sniper battle..... Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 i love that weapon in coop campaign but those work without kits in coop it could work if the enviorment was right for it like multiple vehicles and .50cal bottlenecks as for in TvT i don't think it is any good, i can see the headlines now on the front page of gr.net m35 awareness week ......(hmm on second thought, we are a week short of awareness ) it might have TvT use after all.... in a sniper battle..... True. And think of the lag all those grenades in a 32 player match would bring... I'm going to make an M32 only ranks file anyhow. Should be an interesting way to play deathmatch... Watch it when you have to reload. Can add it as a special demo kit to be used only in the coop ranks as well. Depends on the level at hand as said. What about a "Tracker" class with heartbeat? Any suggestion how to balance that sucker in? Don't think he should have a primary weapon at least. Don't know how well "heartbeat" and "scrambler" functions work outside RvsA though. But I think "heartbeat" should work at least. I'm gonna end up with so many classes. Even people playing at max resolution will have to scroll around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) "True. And think of the lag all those grenades in a 32 player match would bring... " War comes at a cost..... the heart beat / painter tool is nice, but i think it should be used as a team play encurager like in RvsA scouts painted targets and you could hide from them or let them pass you to gain ground to the objective. i would say a sniper fitted with such device would then have the option to shoot, not shooting still lights up the target, for the team which can make an advantage. it is a stealth tool. one i like cause it does not always promote shooting as it can be used tactical. then the scrambler would be with the scout again or the demo, cause those are tactical players and can make sure the light is not on too long on their team mates if played as a squad Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 Tracker - Secondary w/ Silencer, Smoke, Heartbeat maybe? Heartbeat can be a very powerful tool. Maybe call him "scout" and call the current "scout" with assault rifle "tracker"?... or maybe "covert ops"... spooky. Or "spotter", although spotters usually are long range guys. the heart beat / painter tool is nice, but i think it should be used as a team play encurager like in RvsA scouts painted targets and you could hide from them or let them pass you to gain ground to the objective. True. That's also a reason I want to give that class shorter range weapons. More for detection and hiding then detection and sniping. then the scrambler would be with the scout again or the demo, cause those are tactical players and can make sure the light is not on too long on their team mates if played as a squad Interesting idea. I don't think demo as they have more frags then anyone else and demo skills. Don't want them to have too much "power". Counter-Sniper maybe as it's a small detail thing that's not too heavy on the balance but still should be limited? Or Support! They need something positive with their current arsenal. And he would be "supporting" his team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) you'd make him a spec ops guy, a totally new class (joke) call the classes painters *HBguy* and strippers *de-tag guy* (joke) i'd give them a weapon-option no other can have.... so they remain exclusive *the support option is nice cause he is "the" team player.... Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 i'd give them a weapon-option no other can have.... so they remain exclusive That would be nice. But I'm running out of combinations. hehe Scrambler - Assault Rifle w/ Frontgrip, Sidearm, Smoke, Scrambler maybe? Feels a bit... weak. Scrambler - Assault Rifle w/ Frontgrip, Sidearm, Smoke, Scrambler - Assault Rifle w/ Frontgrip, Frag, Scrambler Would make him better balanced towards the rest. Not much more powerful then the Rifleman which will have an extra clip or two compared to the rest. I could add frontgrip to the "rifleman" instead and have "scrambler" with the same options as "rifleman" but without frontgrip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) the weaker option would make him more important to defend in team play, and if he had one or two clips extra it give some balance as he could then also do a light support role. or give him a secondairy scoped with extra clips. i like his weakness edit. i was thinking of secondairy scoped incl mp5sd scoped, side arm, scrambler and smoke or frag. maybe give em extra clips. Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 Or have the smoke/secondary for "scrambler" and frag/sidearm for "rifleman"... the weaker option would make him more important to defend in team play, and if he had one or two clips extra it give some balance as he could then also do a light support role. or give him a secondairy scoped with extra clips. i like his weakness AH! None have scopes secondaries! Back to the drawing board... Maybe call him "Technician" or something like that. Being the gadget guy who helps people... or simply "Scrambler". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) you could keep the board and the new classes of tagger and de tagger are secondairy scoped, (the exclusive weapon) with side arm and smoke/frag mp5sd-scoped incl. side arm non silenced the mp5 scoped with silenced side arm. and m8 compact with without silenced and side arm accordingly to m8compact configuration. *medic !!!! i'm purple * sorry .... Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 Updated list Added: Tracker - Secondary w/ Silencer, Smoke, Heartbeat Scrambler - Secondary w/ Silencer & Optics, Smoke, Scrambler And gave the Anti-Tank guy Optics for his secondary as he has no other bullet weapon and will have less frags then demolition (none if he has RPG). Also the anti-tank weapon have limited uses if it's a predator/zeus. And I'll give him lower demo skill them demolition, but higher then the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) nice i would give them one or two extra clips ( tracker and scrambler and anti tank.) *edit* any change in the counter sniper class ?? or are you keeping with the original as you have it in the list ? cause then there would be the other not used option of scope and silencer for rifles... or would that remain the big NO NO (could limit the clip count to two or three...) Edited August 5, 2007 by sui317 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sui317 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 quick question, does the load out weight still influence the running speed ? cause that would be interresting in some cases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 *edit* any change in the counter sniper class ?? or are you keeping with the original as you have it in the list ? cause then there would be the other not used option of scope and silencer for rifles... or would that remain the big NO NO (could limit the clip count to two or three...) I could add assault rifle with scope and silencer to that class with about the same total ammo amount as for the sniper rifles. So they have burst or full auto instead of zoom. Added. It also gives a total of more then 2 kits for that class, which is good. quick question, does the load out weight still influence the running speed ? cause that would be interresting in some cases No it doesn't. It's only used in the kit selection areas to limit the player in some way. So in MP it's up to the kit builder to take that into account and don't build kits that would be super heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quekel Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 so for TDM what are your ideas now for the weapon kits? we can discuss this endless losing the cs sniper is enough for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 so for TDM what are your ideas now for the weapon kits? we can discuss this endless losing the cs sniper is enough for me And the GL kits... And possible the tracker/scrambler combo. Anti-Tank ain't needed there either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quekel Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 okey so basicly your goal is to get firefights with just frags and smoke, sounds nice, couldnt u just make a patch then what about : Primary weapon, secondary & sidearm , The sidearms they hold on their legs so there is enough room for an secondary on their back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 what about : Primary weapon, secondary & sidearm , The sidearms they hold on their legs so there is enough room for an secondary on their back. Again, that's too much stuff for one class I think. Hard to balance against. I want to remove at least 1 bullet weapon from each class (long, medium or short range). Gonna write up a more detailed comparison of the classes so to detect issues in the current setup. Any inputs are still taken into account, so keep them coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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