What are all these guns?

[Kurtz]

XM29

I thought the XM29 was just a fancy grenade launcher, the 20MM part of the OICW, or is it a revamped OICW with both gun functions?

http://globalsecurity.org/military/systems...nd/m29-oicw.htm

Now add this:

The XM29 -- which won't make it into soldiers' hands until 2006 -- gets even deadlier when thermobaric ammunition is added.

Thermobarics inject a fine, flammable mist into the air, Brigety said. Once ignited, the mist creates a mammoth fireball and pressure wave that's nearly impossible to avoid. The mist can travel around corners and into hidden crannies. And it burns relatively slowly, so jumping out of the way on the bomb's initial impact isn't much of a survival tactic.

Once the fire dies down, the mist sucks all of the oxygen out of the confined space. Those who manage to escape the thermobaric flames and pressure waves quickly expire from asphyxiation.

The fuel that's shot out of a thermobaric weapon is underoxidized, according to Judah Goldwasser, a program officer at the Office of Naval Research. When it mixes with the ambient oxygen in a room, it begins to ignite. It's not hard to imagine why the military used 2,000-pound thermobaric bombs in Afghanistan: They are almost tailor-made for destroying cave-based encampments.

Nor is it difficult to see why soldiers faced with rooting out loyalists to Saddam Hussein in Baghdad would covet a small version of such a weapon. City combat is dangerously unpredictable because any corner could hide an enemy. Soldiers often clear every room of every building they sweep. Thermobaric ammunition can eliminate enemies in several rooms at once.

"For urban warfare (thermobarics) could be very effective," said Andrew Koch, Washington bureau chief of Jane's Defence Weekly. "If you lob a grenade in the entrance of a building, it hits just the people in the entrance. A thermobaric weapon would (go) though the rest of the building."

Koch added, "You might not need to have Marines fighting room to room to room if you have one of these."

XM8

This replaces the M4?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...und/m8-oicw.htm

XM107

What improvement on the M82? I never heard of the XM109 either:

"Even more interesting is Barrett's XM109 'Payload Rifle'. This is a conversion of the M82A1 to fire the same 25mm ammo used by the XM307 OCSW (Objective Crew Served Weapon)"

MP7A1

http://www.global-military.info/weapons/hk-pdw.html

Are all these going to be in GR 2?

Edited September 9, 2004 by Kurtz

[Cobblers]

Let's hope so!! Especially the XM29, should be renamed the "Camper Stopper".

[Kurtz]

lol Also the glitcher eliminator! I'd like those thermobaric rounds for room clearing.

[GRT]

I didnt see anything about a the XM107 and MP7. I did see a M21 with pistol, and a M4 with a 1911.

[ruggbutt]

OICW has been canceled by the military. It won't be going into production.

[MaverickAR15]

OICW has been canceled by the military. It won't be going into production.

Yep...last time I heard the thing blew up in a Marine's face while testing.

Also...am I the only one who doesn't care about XM8 in this forum?

[Brainman2k]

OICW has been canceled by the military. It won't be going into production.

i thought the xm8 came out of the stopped oicw-project?

i think the pdw will be as useless as the mp5 was in gr1. these are more for cqb than for wide open areas (imho).

[simulacra]

They split the xm29 into two parts, the xm8 and the xm25.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/defaul...arget=xm_25.htm

I guess they realized that the xm29 was a design flaw, the xm8 is a G36 with a new body, it's faster and cheaper that way.

Edited September 10, 2004 by simulacra

[Dan]

OCIW was to heavy and to expensive, both HK and the US decided to abandon it.

Those thermonucleewoogy rounds remind of a thing called a "fuel air bomb":

A fine mist of petrol is sprayed from an aircraft or missile, and allowed to difuse into the atmosphere. Then a conventional bomb explodes, setting of the petrol mist. If you survivbe the huge burning fireball, you get caned by the shockwave caused by the vacuum refilling with air. Good fun.

MP7's are HKs nifty little multi role pistol. It has the compact size of an UZI type weapon, ideal for security etc, but has a foldable stock and handle allowing it to become a phyco little sub machine gun. Nice little guns, the South Koreans have a few of em if im not mistaken.

And according to HK, the XM8 IS NOT a fancy lookin G36. The parts are similar looking, but have there differences. Both a supoib guns tho, the XM8 is the next step up from the G36. Gotta love the germans, nice cars, nice guns and nice beer!!

[Kurtz]

The XM8 is in GR 2. According to XBN magazine, the XM25 (they called it the XM29) may be in the game. The sniper rifle is not a variant of the M82 or XM107.

I wonder what the OPFOR will have for weapons.

[GRT]

The XM8 is in GR 2. According to XBN magazine, the XM25 (they called it the XM29) may be in the game. The sniper rifle is not a variant of the M82 or XM107.

I wonder what the OPFOR will have for weapons.

AK47 and RPK for sure(i seen them), maybe a dragonov for SR, maybe AK47/74 with GP-25

[simulacra]

And according to HK, the XM8 IS NOT a fancy lookin G36. The parts are similar looking, but have there differences. Both a supoib guns tho, the XM8 is the next step up from the G36. Gotta love the germans, nice cars, nice guns and nice beer!!

Well, of course some things have been improved upon, but if you compare the 2 weapons they are extremely alike (except for the body, but we all knew that), the charging handle is the same, the shell ejection port is at the same height etc.

My guess is that HK looked into what the us wanted for their gun, made some improvements but kept the overall design to save money.

The mechanics on the inside is prolly the things that has been least improved since they're excellent from the start, the gas block might be changed so the gun can handle the different varities of 5.56 that the us uses.

[MaverickAR15]

As far as I know, XM8 is a face lifted version of G36 (I'd say G36 looks a lot better though) Both are based on gas piston design, and G36 has shown receiver melting under sustained firing. Here's the beef I have with XM8

1.HK says XM8 is modular; well in case you haven't noticed, M16A4 and M4 MWS is just as modular and there are tons of accessories for them. Also, M16/M4 family's lower and upper receiver can be broken into half in 2 seconds and you can slap on a specialty upper with pre-zeroed sights for that role.

2.XM8 is light weight; yeah, which is partly due to shorter standard-issue barrel, which is 12.5" vs. 14.5" of M4. As many of you folks know, M4 has been cited with numerous stoppage problems (M16 generally doesn't have this). It is because that 5.56mm relies heavily upon velocity as wounding mechanism. You rob 5.56mm of its velocity and you have nothing more than a super fast .22 lr. On top of this, G36 is shown to generate 1" less length barrel equal to AR15/M16 rifles; that is, 12.5" barrel generates MV equal to what M4 commando with 11.5" generates. Another issue, as I mentioned above is that receiver is plastic and under sustained automatic fire it might "melt". This was the case with G36 and I don't know if they improved it with XM8.

3.Very high sight/optics from the bore axis. I don't know why the carry-handle looking thing is there for XM8 but it seems to me that since they integrated basic sights to XM8's handle thingy you would have to put optional optics on top of it, which means it will be far off from the bore axis. (which is a bad thing)

4.XM8 is still 5.56mm. Everytime U.S changed its weapons system they changed the caliber too. XM8 indeed IS A more clean gas system but that doesn't mean M4/M16 jams a lot. They do get dirty fast, but they still will operate just fine. Also, this dirty gas system is a factor of the equation that gives M16 family weapons an advantage on accuracy. (direct gas impingement) Some people say XM8 can be adapted to fire 6.8x43 but they ALREADY have M16 upper and magazine which fires and feeds it using M16 platform.

Obviously, I don't have experience with XM8 and it is still under development, so I will have to see how it turns out, but I'm not very convinced. (of course they don't need to convince me to change their weapons system )

Basically my point is, why change the current weapons system, while it is working fine, to another weapons system which will be a logistics nightmare without gaining anything practical? The only thing I'd say is better than AR15/M16 system in 5.56mm caliber is SIG 55x series rifle.

Some one who has experience with XM8 please chime in?

Edited September 10, 2004 by MaverickAR15

[Sup]

Hatchetforce said a lot about the XM8 in... http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20270, I think.

[ruggbutt]

The major problem w/the M4 only wounding is an ammunition problem more than anything else. The ammo that is being carried has a "penetrator" core and as Hatchet said, it just shoots thru. BsR™ Reaper (2nd BN Rangers) had the same problems in Afghanistan and Iraq. He got some great center hits but the bad guy was still able to fire back, so spec ops have been shooting until the guy is definitely down. The problem w/this is that the time this takes could jeapordize the shooter, as he isn't transitioning to the next target as quick as he would if the ammo was doing it's job.

Edited September 11, 2004 by ruggbutt

[Dan]

As far as I know, XM8 is a face lifted version of G36 (I'd say G36 looks a lot better though) Both are based on gas piston design, and G36 has shown receiver melting under sustained firing. Here's the beef I have with XM8

******************************************************

Some one who has experience with XM8 please chime in?

can you please read some information about the XM8. Almost everything you have mentioned is countered by articles written about the XM8.

Can you grab an M4, and unscrew the barrel, then screw a longer one on? You can with an XM8

You find out lots of fun facts when you read things.

I found this after searching google for 30seconds:

You see, the handle comes off, the stock slides in, sights can be fitted.

Some other links for you:

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,1463...ch_XM8,,00.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...und/m8-oicw.htm

http://www.hksystems.com.au/pages/XM8.htm

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?n...article&sid=515

And thats just on the 1st page of a google search. The second last one (HK Systems) compares the XM8 and M4.

Look, there's even a Ghost Recon.net report on the XM8, google told me that too!

http://www.ghostrecon.net/html/arms_xm8.htm

[ruggbutt]

Can you grab an M4, and unscrew the barrel, then screw a longer one on? You can with an XM8

That would never happen anywhere near the battlefield IRL, ever. Special Forces now are inserted to do a mission, then extracted. They don't spend inordinate amounts of time in the field, they go back to base after the op and prepare for the next one.

Edited September 12, 2004 by ruggbutt

[GRT]

Can you grab an M4, and unscrew the barrel, then screw a longer one on? You can with an XM8

That would never happen anywhere near the battlefield IRL, ever. Special Forces now are inserted to do a mission, then extracted. They don't spend inordinate amounts of time in the field, they go back to base after the op and prepare for the next one.

Its supposed to take a couple of seconds from what i saw, the same amount of time change a magazine. If i were on the field id take a different barrel. Just because your SF doesnt mean you go in and out. Look at over seas. Theyve been there walking through citys/towns. id be better also becuase itd cut down on the cleaning time.

[ruggbutt]

That just doesn't happen RR_GRT. I'm not sure how much you know about gunsmithing, but you cannot just "screw on" a barrel. You need a headspace guage and other tools to do that. While you can do some of this before heading into battle a dirty barrel is not the reason you change one. The M60E3 has this feature (SAW too), and it's there because you can shoot the barrel out. By the amount of sheer firepower you can put downrange w/it you can ruin the barrel. You cannot do this with a rifle or carbine w/30 round mags. You simply couldn't fire it long enough for heat to damage it. Additionally, if the gun stops firing it's not because of a dirty barrel. The reciprocating assemblies are dirty, the gas tube is plugged, the gas piston dirty, bolt, bolt carrier, extractor, ejector and the myriad of springs and small parts need to be cleaned. Taking a rag and wiping the crud off of these parts serve as a quick and dirty solution to a real cleaning. The military is using a product called Breakfree, it has teflon in it and it's used for cleaning and lubing their weapons. It actually helps to keep the gun cleaner just by using it.

Having worked w/and for gunsmiths in the past I've only seen one gas tube on an AR15 clogged up. And that was because he had bought a case of Norinco (Chinese) ammo and shot the hell out of the weapon. No Break Free, no nothing. I think he even used WD40 to lube it (a huge no-no). I went 1000 or so rounds thru my H-Bar before I broke down and gave it a good cleaning. I wiped out the guts w/a rag (field cleaning so to speak) about halfway thru. Never had a jam nor a stoppage.

Quick change is a neat feature for for belt fed support weapons, but it's not even close to being a tactical or viable situation for the combat infantryman. Let's not forget that it's a wonderful marketing point.........

Edited September 12, 2004 by ruggbutt

[GRT]

Have you seen some change the barrel on a XM8? It went pretty fast from what i saw. And what i said about cleaning. I wasnt talking about the gun malfunctioning becuase of a dirty barrel. It would just cut down on the cleaning time.

[ruggbutt]

A soldier wouldn't lug around a 3 or 4 pound barrel that he wasn't gonna use, period. A support gunner has a teammate that carries some of that stuff so barrel changing on an extended operation might be a good idea. Then again if you shot out a barrel you'd be low on ammo so you'd request resupply. You'd ask for more ammo and another barrel. You wouldn't carry stuff that wasn't necessary. Standard ammo amounts for a SAW gunner are 200 round box on the gun, and 4 100 round packs on his vest or LBE. You can't destroy a barrel w/600 rounds on the type of operation that the Ghosts go on. On an emplaced gun the quick change barrels are a good idea, but we're still talking support weapons. And we're talking about this in relation to Special Forces. If you've ever humped a rucksack you are always finding ways to carry only what you need and the smallest amounts of it that you can pack. A small bottle of foot powder weighs less and takes up less room than the industrial strength size.

Like I said, quick-change for anything but support weapons is all about marketing. You can run a wire brush thru your barrel once (in and out) and clean it enough to make it serviceable. It's cleaning the rest of the gun that takes the time and the barrel change doesn't affect any of that.

Edited September 12, 2004 by ruggbutt

[Dan]

That just doesn't happen RR_GRT. I'm not sure how much you know about gunsmithing, but you cannot just "screw on" a barrel. You need a headspace guage and other tools to do that.

god your missing the point. The XM8 is special because IT DOESNT NEED ALL THOSE TOOLS!!

The whole idea is that you can change em fast.

Imagine this. You've been out in a field, soldiering. Long distance and open space, so you have the long barrel on, and the butt is extented nice and long. This way you are most accurate. Then you see a town up ahead, lots of buildings and backyards. Very close quaters. So what do ya do? You pull out your short CQB barrel, from a back pack or maybe a vechile or something, whip off the the longun, screw in the little one, slide in the stock, and you've got a nice little carbine to play with.

And this rifle isnt just for SF, its gunna be for the whole armed forces if it goes ahead. So an entire unit will be motoring along, and they can easily switch weapon configurations for the job.

[ruggbutt]

god your missing the point. The XM8 is special because IT DOESNT NEED ALL THOSE TOOLS!!

The whole idea is that you can change em fast.

You don't shoot guns IRL do you? Say you decide to screw on your new barrel on the XM8, where are you gonna zero it at? You have to sight them in again. You can remove the same barrel and put it back on and chances are it won't shoot to point of aim. This is why the Army doesn't do it that way.

Stay with me here, I'm not thru yet. Wanna know how the M60E3 is zeroed when a new barrel is put on? The front sights are adjustable, the barrel is mounted to the weapon, it's sighted in and then it's removed. When it's replaced in combat it's sighted in close enough because it's a support weapon. MOA accuracy isn't essential for a support weapon.

The removable barrel is a nice feature, but it's not a combat feature. It's more for the armorer and the SAW gunner. I have tens of thousands of rounds through my Colt H-Bar, the barrel isn't close to having to be replaced. I'll tell you one more time, the only time a barrel is replaced in combat is because it was destroyed by the heat of sustained fire. That's sustained fire from a belt fed weapon. You'd be hard pressed to kill a rifle from heat by shooting full magazines thru it.

Edited September 13, 2004 by ruggbutt

[GRT]

nvm im not talking bout it anymore

Edited September 13, 2004 by RR_GRT

[XRW_GpVon]

i can see the sense in changing a barrel from the 20" to something smaller for CQB use,and speaking from experience,i've had to change the barrel on an m60 after just 400 rounds when firing in a cyclic rate. now i know cyclic is not how you are supposed to fire an automatic weapon BUT alot of things don't go the way they are supposed to in combat.

back the interchangeble barrels,awesome idea and if they use it i tend to think it will be a great thing that the soldiers out there will love,no one wants a long rifle inside of a building(thus the m4)

when i was at Ft. Benning,training with all this stuff we were made to clean our weapons EVERYDAY no matter how many rounds were fired.proper weapon maintenance can potentially save your life.