Conspiracy Theories

[NoQuarter]

I can see the headline ... "

Dick Cheney has been found piloting a small aircraft that hit a building this moring, witnesses said as he was pulled from the wreckage he had some sort of microchip on his forehead and was still clutching boxes of Tamiflu mumbling the words, 'I am lady ga-ga' ... more on this breaking story as we get it ..."

Well, that would explain a few things...such as the undisclosed secret location of Dick in the past administration, as well as those hermaphrodite rurmors of awhile back.

Gaga.

[Bota:16]

Not a troll post per se, just summarizing this thread and tying it all together in a couple sentences for any newcomers to the thread.

[calius]

Not a troll post per se, just summarizing this thread and tying it all together in a couple sentences for any newcomers to the thread.

Well lets just hope any newcomer starts from page one

Actualy speaking of Lady Ga Ga ....

** WARNING ... some naughty bits contained in both **

All about the Ga Ga

All about the Ga Ga Video

Cant wait to see who slags this off here. BTW in recent polls she was up as one of the most influential people ... wonder who made the poll.

[petsfed]

However, if you elected not to get the vaccine for any reason other than because of a well-informed cost-benefit analysis (that involves consulting experts), you are an idiot. In this case specifically, if you decided not to get the vaccine out of some fear that it could be contaminated with some porcine virus, even though you turned out to be correct, you're still an idiot. The ONLY way you could POSSIBLY know such a thing ahead of time is if you were a QA/QC technician involved in the production of the vaccine.

Is this a riddle? Notice you use "idiot" for either situation, that's a little harsh don't you think? I say for those who were informed and chose not too and then found it did, are umm, far from an idiot as you call it. Christ you sound like you work in those circles.

These points have been made time and time over, your one side, others are the other .. we agree to differ. Yet these things in vaccines still appear, very suspect situations arise from this a lot and people are mindful of this whether you have that view or you don't..

So, to be clear, yes, I'm currently in grad school with the express purpose of becoming a researcher in physics. One of my major fascinations not entirely in my field is epistemology, the study of how we know what we know. I won my place in grad school by making it a point to figure out how a particular experiment (or series of experiments) allows us to say, and with how much precision, we know something.

I'm also very accustomed to fighting, tooth and nail, to justify my paycheck when others are quick to point out that their method worked just as well that one time, and costs thousands of times less.

To the issue of epistemology, Aristotle says that knowledge is justified true belief. Setting aside, for now, the issue of truth, there is that thorny issue of justification. I'm not going to explain it here, but there's a thought experiment called the Gettier problem that basically lays out the problem of justification. Its example is a bit extreme, but it does raise the question "how is our justification related to the truth value?" If you cannot clearly show a causal relationship between the justification and the truth value (that is to say, you believe the ground is wet because it is raining, rather than because you had a premonition. The truth of your justification causes the truth of your belief), then you really can't say that you know something, can you? Of course, this brings up thorny issues like how do you truly show causality, and a bunch of others, but it is a good place to start. In general, the less fundamental the flaw, the more damaging it is to the theory. Put another way, you can attack a theory based on the unlikelihood of absolute knowledge, or you can attack it because the evidence doesn't support it; the latter is the more damning counterargument because it only applies to that theory.

So in that sense, you can differentiate between happenstance true belief (the bolded case from what you quoted above) and actual knowledge.

[calius]

I'm also very accustomed to fighting, tooth and nail, to justify my paycheck when others are quick to point out that their method worked just as well that one time, and costs thousands of times less.

This to me is the most interesting part ...

I am not pointing at you on this but you raise a good point, and this was my point about affiliations / allegiances .. motivation etc. Following the money and funds of a particular set of experts and the money trail is very important to understand what drives them in this current climate (investigative journalists/whistle blowers etc etc)

When you have a lot of experts or people who have gained careers like many others and they have to justify this and its reflected in the paycheck, do you not feel that many are in some ways compromised to a certain extent when justifying their certain part of this "truth"?

So in that sense, you can differentiate between happenstance true belief (the bolded case from what you quoted above) and actual knowledge.

But does this mean that if you can, but still see via lots of information that people still should be warey and question, you are then an idoit? Going by your initial views on that, sounds very elitist to me, and that's why I didn't take kindly to it.

From what I can tell you did fire-in asking Rocky "Why" to being wary, and now we find you are working to enter those areas, I find that quite interesting to see how much people will "fight" (your words) their corner in this situation. Im not fighting any corner personally as the truth will make its way out regardless of all the white noise in between. White noise such as whos batting for whos "side" fighting the points, collapse theory, no planed theory, aliens ... web nutters etc etc etc.

If you were working in your circles and later on you happened to come across something such as what gets put out with vaccines, would you become a whistle blower, or would you turn a blind eye for the paycheck and career?

... *dont answer* .. I'm just putting this question in general really about "how" things get quashed and whitewashed.

I think what im ultimately trying to say is, experts are like politicians and heads/leaders etc, none of them should be above being checked into or questioned, especially experts in those particular circles who have affiliations to certain other groups outside of public interest or view.

If you take the word of everything under simply thinking little old me knows nothing and they are the experts and they must know more so I don't have a say ... its a dangerous game, especially when its about something you take into your body. Where you get that information can have its good and bad points (ref your point) .. but, much like googles data-mining .. you do your own.

BTW .. dont take this like im saying this is everyone and people such as your self getting a career, its not, and good luck to you on that. Its like questioning war policy etc and then people in the army onto you about disrespecting the troops, when in actual fact its not "them" as they are doing a job, its those far above.

[petsfed]

Its funny that you bring up the follow-the-money issue, and the issue of what to do in case there is a clear ethics violation.

Last year, there was that big flap about global warming researchers fudging the numbers a bit. And I was up in arms over it. Not because it called into question my beliefs regarding climate change, but because it added fuel to this fire that experts are somehow self-appointed. It damaged the integrity of scientists as a whole. Those climate scientists, acting as they thought in the best interests of the people, damaged the integrity of scientists as a whole. And like I said, I have to fight, tooth and nail, to justify a grant for cosmology research, occasionally to people who will hold up a copy of the Bible and tell me that they already have the answers.

I strongly reject solipsism, and it horrifies me that people in a position to make policy choices might equate the expertise of Nobel Prize winners to some guy who honestly believes that gravity is just pressure from a vast sea of water external to the earth's atmosphere. As an undergrad, we kept a copy in the undergrad lounge of "Honest John (who tells the truth!)"'s treatise on gravity specifically to remind us of what a partial understanding can lead to.

I don't bat an eye at being called elitist. It is certainly the case that I am elitist. I think that there is a smaller group of people than the general populace who have the qualifications necessary to evaluate something like a building collapse or the quality of a vaccine. The reason for that is that true renaissance men, people considered experts in more than 2 fields simultaneously haven't existed since, well, the renaissance. Its just too much information. I'm hard pressed to be an expert on a single subset of my field, and I have google and 50 pounds of reference books to ease the strain. Meanwhile, I don't know beans about business. If my car breaks down, I DO take it to a mechanic, because the most complex maintenance operation I know is changing my oil. Everything I know about biology, medicine, chemistry, its all framed in terms of what I know well, physics, and features all the attendant flaws and complexities that come from speaking my language, rather than the dominant languages of the other fields. I could suggest something in biology or chemistry, or medicine and, even though it may turn out to be right, I expect to be wrong simply because there's a lot of background knowledge that should figure into my statement that I simply do not have.

That background knowledge is the reason the US Patent Office requires a working prototype of any perpetual motion machine submitted for patent protection. Its simply because if you understood why a perpetual motion machine can't exist according to thermodynamics (thermodynamics is apparently very easily misunderstood, look at its chronic misuse in anti-evolution campaigns), you'd understand why the machine is not, in fact, a perpetual motion machine. Most conspiracy theories hinge on a misunderstanding as fundamental as that.

Edited May 12, 2010 by petsfed

[CrowmanUK]

I absolutely respect you for trying to be the best that you can be in your chosen profession, anyone who does that deserves a bit of admiration for the hard work that it is, but, and this applies to any profession, and that is the scientist of today knows much more than the scientist of 10 or 20 years ago and who's to say the same wont apply in 20 years time. So any opinion that they give will be based on what they know at that particular time, years ago doctors said leeches would cure pretty much anything, today its vaccines, in 100 years times they may well look at vaccines and laugh the same as they do now with at the cure all leech.

[calius]

It is certainly the case that I am elitist. I think that there is a smaller group of people than the general populace who have the qualifications necessary to evaluate something like a building collapse or the quality of a vaccine.

So its elitist to understand people get into professions to advise in these areas for people who are not privy/trained to full details of a given area or subject? I thought that was just .. "obvious".

Although I think Elitist means ... "shut up, you know nothing simpleton, know your place". Which is very different.

What if you have Experts in this area (global warming, farma, 9/11) that actually say contrary to the official information? What are they? Poor excuses of so called experts, or ... people who don't fit in?

I still say that you can and do have compromised experts, and so you have "a smaller group of people than the general populace" above them as a reminder of such a thing.

like I said, I have to fight, tooth and nail, to justify a grant for cosmology research, occasionally to people who will hold up a copy of the Bible and tell me that they already have the answers.

Maybe they do ... but I guess they don't have any experts to back them up. *Kind of a joke in a way*

[calius]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64D58I20100514

(Reuters) - Rotavirus vaccines made by GlaxoSmithKline Plc and Merck & Co Inc are safe to use despite being contaminated with a pig virus, U.S. health regulators ruled on Friday.

Well, if the experts say its ok now, that's cool, no need for any more debate on the matter, move along idiots.

[petsfed]

It is certainly the case that I am elitist. I think that there is a smaller group of people than the general populace who have the qualifications necessary to evaluate something like a building collapse or the quality of a vaccine.

So its elitist to understand people get into professions to advise in these areas for people who are not privy/trained to full details of a given area or subject? I thought that was just .. "obvious".

Although I think Elitist means ... "shut up, you know nothing simpleton, know your place". Which is very different.

Is it elitist of me to expect that when a person brings up a possible flaw in the hypothesis, they've done their homework enough to back it up with good evidence? That's what I'm expected to do. The burden of proof has ALWAYS been on the accuser, not the accused, and in scientific discussions, it is NEVER the job of the accused to gather the data necessary to confirm or refute a competing hypothesis. And if you haven't done the work needed to lend legitimacy to your position, it is very much a case of "go on now, the grownups are talking".

I still say that you can and do have compromised experts, and so you have "a smaller group of people than the general populace" above them as a reminder of such a thing.

Which is why we have ethics committees, and peer review, and very high standards of evidence. The referees are very exacting in what they expect out of a paper, not to discourage contrary positions, but to ensure that changes in orthodox thought are based on good evidence.. A professor I worked under once told me that if you're gonna call bullsh**, you'd better be right.

Scientific positions are based around evidence. If that evidence is not available to all with the skills to evaluate it, or the results cannot be reproduced, then the evidence is not valid. To be clear, I'm not disputing that there are ethically compromised experts out there. I'm railing against the tendency in the states for policy makers and the general populace to hold unqualified blowhards in the same level of respect and credibility as someone who has spent their entire life working in the field.

Incidentally, porcine circovirus, first identified in 1974, does not infect humans. I mean that literally, there has never been a recorded case of PCV in a human. Ever. So yes, in principle, I suppose that it could, theoretically, infect a person now that its in the vaccine for rotavirus, but rotavirus kills more than half a million people (typically infants) annually, while PCV doesn't even cause illness in people. What's funny is that animal virii have been used for decades as bases for human vaccines. And we're finally up in arms over it?

[calius]

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/14/radio-frequency-rfid-implant/

Once Upon A time In "conspiracy" Land .... Mainly will be Peddled to the public as "Safety" I would imagine, once we are all scared enough.

Is it elitist of me to expect that when a person brings up a possible flaw in the hypothesis, they've done their homework enough to back it up with good evidence? That's what I'm expected to do.

I never suggested it was and I wast speaking of you specifically anyway. Great posts by the way its nice to have some of the views coming from people in those realms so to speak. Don't think I disagree an all what you are posting, actually I wanted you to post more to see what you would reply with Although agree to differ we will in some areas I guess.

A professor I worked under once told me that if you're gonna call bullsh**, you'd better be right.

Then again you could also say:

"if your going to question why the official information still doesn't result in full answers to what they are claiming, then you better make sure you speak up to show these things to keep the debate going".

Shoe doesn't fit all, but you get the idea.

BTW whats your take on this recent Swine Flu media scare moment a few months back compared to what actually happened? Do you think it was a Tami-flu sales-desk exercise or a normal reaction to the information? Also do you think media got feed more than needed and it was just "one of those things" ?

[petsfed]

BTW whats your take on this recent Swine Flu media scare moment a few months back compared to what actually happened? Do you think it was a Tami-flu sales-desk exercise or a normal reaction to the information? Also do you think media got feed more than needed and it was just "one of those things" ?

Well, this is where my cynicism comes out, and where my own opinions start to sound dangerously like conspiracy theories, so bear them appropriately in mind. I think swine-flu is a legitimate health concern and people need to be informed about it. But the public psyche and the nature of news reporting means that there's no moderate level of coverage. To ensure that people watch (and thus to justify their advertising rates), if any story is covered, it must be a scandal, or a crisis, or an epidemic. So the swine flu story was blown way out of proportion. Its the same thing as the missing white girl stories. Thousands of people go missing every day. But television news only centers on the young adult white women. This isn't because a missing black boy is less newsworthy, but because the demographic that the shows cater to are more likely to tune in to a story about a missing white girl than to flip over to ESPN.

Incidentally, resistance to RFID tags (and universal ID cards before them) comes not from any legitimate fear of government supervision (if the government needs to watch you, they can do so without you ever finding out, not through underhanded means but through your own apathy), but because of much older fears of the mark of the beast. This is apparent in the way counter-arguments are presented. Unfortunately, what will usher in RFID chips amongst the general population won't be safety concerns. It will be to simplify commerce. It'll take another decade after that before the governments of the world actually catch up and insist on standardized identification schemes so that your RFID chip will function as your passport, drivers license, and credit card.

Understand, I buy much more readily into cynical accusations that a business is trying to pull one past me, mostly because I know how efficient and secretive the governments of the world are. Which is to say, they aren't.

[NoQuarter]

http://www.foxnews.c...y-rfid-implant/

Here we go again.

Not to worry, Calius, you will fall in line (with RFID) once you have teen-age daughters.

[calius]

Unfortunately, what will usher in RFID chips amongst the general population won't be safety concerns. It will be to simplify commerce.

Yes indeed to replace bar-code is the first stage for sure. The reason I post and the reason others post about the whole "mark of the beast" area is its not necessarily about our future but childrens, childrens children .. etc. Although they are making a great effort to get the brianwash in early with the whole tagging, then the homeless then in emergencies / earth quakes ... which shows the good, and then ... well ... why not have one permanent!

It'll take another decade after that before the governments of the world actually catch up and insist on standardized identification schemes so that your RFID chip will function as your passport, drivers license, and credit card.

Which still leads to the same ending of the story, which, unless your a dribbling mess, spells "worrying".

mostly because I know how efficient and secretive the governments of the world are. Which is to say, they aren't.

Who said it was government level only?

Not to worry, Calius, you will fall in line (with RFID) once you have teen-age daughters.

Thats a negative on all counts from me sir.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7131340.ece

Start of Global Economic Collapse?

Will Europe go under? Will the U.S Fall within a year? Any takers?

[CrowmanUK]

Wont make much difference if Korea start throwing nukes about

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/7745370/North-Korea-threatens-all-out-war-over-warship-sinking-report.html

[Dick Splash]

Here's a recent full length video about a general view of the NWO;

Invisible Empire

DS

[Dick Splash]

Alan Hart, former BBC Middle East correspondent, voiced his opinion on 9/11 during an recent interview.

DS

[Rocky]

Alan Hart, former BBC Middle East correspondent, voiced his opinion on 9/11 during an recent interview.

DS

I'd never heard of The 5 Dancing Israelis thing before. It just keeps growing arms and legs....

[Dick Splash]

I'd never heard of The 5 Dancing Israelis thing before. It just keeps growing arms and legs....

Yes, there are a few videos out there that cover this. Word on 'conspiracy street' though is that they were Mossad. If not, then they're the only people on that morning that were seen celebrating and enjoying the event.

Does Alan Hart state that by turning off an aircraft's transponder, you disable the navigation system as well? I dunno, if you've ever been on an aircraft and you look out of the window trying to find a landmark to give you an idea of where you are, even if you're familiar with what it looks like from the ground, it's usually impossible to do so, and it's often at the point you're coming in to land that you have a Scooby. What I'm getting at is the fact that four inexperienced pilots, that had no [?] experience on the hijacked jets, managed to navigate their way towards their targets. There's plenty of videos out there showing how incompetent the alleged hijackers were during their flight training.

I've mentioned this subject before and so far, I've not seen anyone follow this through;

Police radio chatter.

DS

[NoQuarter]

... If not, then they're the only people on that morning that were seen celebrating and enjoying the event.

Not the only people DS.

I recall -vividly- the footage of a busy Gaza thoroughfare with candy being passed out to laughing, dancing kiddies while their cheering fathers blew their horns and fired off their AKs into the great dusky unknown...but perhaps I misconstrued their solidarity and concern for the victims with just base, cold-blooded celebration, or something else altogether.

If you don't like the fact as presented - just throw Anti-Semitism into the mix.

The poor Jews...they get blamed for everything.

____EDIT:

Note to self: Never fly with Dick Splash.

Edited May 28, 2010 by NoQuarter

[Dick Splash]

I recall -vividly- the footage of a busy Gaza thoroughfare with candy being passed out to laughing, dancing kiddies while their cheering fathers blew their horns and fired off their AKs into the great dusky unknown...but perhaps I misconstrued their solidarity and concern for the victims with just base, cold-blooded celebration, or something else altogether.

I meant on U.S. soil, but it doesn't take much for people in hot countries to get fired up. That's why the Spanish have siestas. If they didn't, they'd be running bulls through the streets on a daily basis.

DS

[calius]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/10158517.stm

First human 'infected with computer virus'

Misleading title really, the chip is not the "human" .. but then that's the idea to fuse the two (did you see what they did with that title, eh .. did you?), plus the mans obviously a fool anyway for bothering. Notice it still speaks of a demand for it though, great!

Reminds me of the Microsoft adverts "I'm a PC" ... no your not, your a sovereign human entity, your not a computer ... you fool!

Why doesn't this d*ck head use a key system like everyone else?

An old 2008 link top right of the above article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7207514.stm

Ah yes, the web of all things, great, track anything anywhere! Transparency for all things ... well, apart from those pushing it. But that's a conspiracy ... obviously.

@DS ... Thing is no one will really touch surrounding details fully in any strong position, its all about fighting over the collapse theory and ignoring the rest, which is perfect to never full answer much at all. It simply keeps the "fight" on the merry-go-round until its a generation or so later and people cant remember or give a stuff with when the short memory syndrome takes hold

[calius]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7771112/Children-as-young-as-4-to-be-fingerprinted-to-borrow-school-books.html

Children, 4, 'to be fingerprinted to borrow school books from library'

Get them early then chip them later

[NoQuarter]

... Thing is no one will really touch surrounding details fully in any strong position, its all about fighting over the collapse theory and ignoring the rest, which is perfect to never full answer much at all. It simply keeps the "fight" on the merry-go-round until its a generation or so later and people cant remember or give a stuff with when the short memory syndrome takes hold

It is hard to take note -even harder to take seriously- any of that peripheral stuff after wading through the "Dick Cheney & the Boys from Halliburton did it" or the "Dark Overlords from Planet 10 did it" or the "Aviation Fuel can't possibly melt steel" duesys in order to get to them.

You boys will just have to wait for Oliver Stone to release the definitive story/movie...so that finally you will have a concise and consistent narrative on which to go on and on about.

____

Yesterday my riding mower suddenly conked out while in use -just as a late model sedan was passing by on the adjacent trunk highway.

I'm sure that the two are related, and it's up to you to prove that they aren't.

Edited May 29, 2010 by NoQuarter

[calius]

No quater ... what you have posted is the perfect reply, you are stating that we are "boys for going on about it" ... nice, how adult of you to suggest that outer info ref 9/11 =

"Dick Cheney & the Boys from Halliburton did it"

Never heard of it.

"Dark Overlords from Planet 10 did it"

Dis info crap to make you turn away ref silly stories.

"Aviation Fuel can't possibly melt steel"

No one said it cant possibly do it, just that in this instance its a stretch to have the end results.

Those end results have been covered very clearly in this thread some time back and they are not just some simple off the cuff one liners to cast it off as a joke.

It is hard to take note -even harder to take seriously-

The net is a wash with total crap and spin and utter crap I would be the first to agree, but as far as the posts and links and points in this thread goes there are "key" points that are never answered, wont go into that again as it would be repeating. The rest is just white noise to do the exact thing your stating, get bogged down with non credible crap and turn away.

You boys will just have to wait for Oliver Stone to release the definitive story/movie...so that finally you will have a concise and consistent narrative on which to go on and on about.

Dont patronize me Noquater and I assume this is a joke, right? Oliver Stones factual films are a joke.

Yesterday my riding mower suddenly conked out while in use -just as a late model sedan was passing by on the adjacent trunk highway.

I'm sure that the two are related, and it's up to you to prove that they aren't.

Well, decoded that would read:

2 towers collapse in a near mirror pattern at free fall, Molten lava/steel at the base of both / Building 7 collapses without being touched and is known to have been "pulled" & reported collapsing on the news before it did ... yada yada (oops I repeated! )

This is a bit of such things, then there's all the anomalies of cars burned and upside down in the radius etc, its not as simple as some kinder garden snipe.

If you have nothing to add only to pick away at any opportune moment knowing what your views are, why bother in this thread!? The title of it speaks for itself, take from it what you will or wont. Cheap snipes are wearing thin.