m99 Awareness week

[funk]

Lead or No. 2? Because, and this is just my HUMBLE opinion here.....but I would think lead pencils can't be used. They're too easy to reload and will give an unfair advantage.

You missed a valid point aswell, they are far too yellow so no camo in the jungle, especially "in_the_cut" map.

no no no no NO! You missed MY point! Pencils are just too easy! And don't get me started on the eraser feature If anyone wants to join me in a writing contest, find me in the server. No lead, ballpoint only...all skillz....boiiii!

Oh dont get ME started on dual pencils, now that is just a no no, and must be made weaker. Someone will find an exploit and have the eraser (rubber, im english) heatseaking.

[WhiteKnight77]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, obviously cause you're an admin.

But if you don't play multiplayer, then you have absolutely no grasp of this situation.

GL & m99, (especially both put together) will ruin your day.

Fact, you can't play Coop without multiple human players without being either online or on a LAN. Coop is an MP game. It's just played differently than TDM. I do play MP gametypes.

As I said, people complained about the OICW w/GL being a uberweapon and now y'all are doing the same with the M99. Same story, different day and game version. As someone else asked, what next after the weapon is defanged? It's a never ending cycle honestly. Someone will always feel that a weapon wasn't modeled correctly. OK, so it can be used like a pump action shotgun, I understand, but defanging it will just allow others to find another weapon that can be used similarly and the complaints will grow over that.

Maybe GRIN will patch it and if so, do all of us a favor and do not complain about the next weapon to be found to be uberfied. The funny thing is, I don't see any complaints about the M99 anywhere but here. Go figure.

[Rocky]

Okay, we're starting to go around in circles here now. Fact is the M99 needs some attention, fact is GRIN know about it.

If we don't see the M99 mentioned in the next patch readme I'll be very surprised.

Unless anyone has anything further, constructive and non-repetitive to say, I think we can call an end to M99 Awareness week, with thanks to TeamHot for "raising awareness"

[viiiper]

Unless anyone has anything further, constructive and non-repetitive to say, I think we can call an end to M99 Awareness week, with thanks to TeamHot for "raising awareness"

I re read this thread, the facts are:

50 diffrent users posted, each user expressed an opinion that was for, against or neutral. From all the users, this was the outcome;

24 + for

16 - against

10 +/- neutral

This thread is the views of a section of uses, many not represented here, actually this thread represents the views of 50 posters (at the time of making this post) and not the thousands of players that bought the game. If grin do decide to act and make modifications to one weapon, I believe this would have to be done with all.

As quoted by 'Petsfed' and I checked it and it is true.

Actually, I noticed that there is no noticeable weapons sway if you're not moving. With any weapon. No matter the stance. That, I think, should be changed. Don't really care beyond that though. And while I'm not military trained, I do know that its difficult to keep even a little .22 THAT on target without external support (bench rest, bipod, etc). Enough shooting real firearms has taught me that.

This is a good point, I ask you GRIN to look as all weapons/ rifles and make the necessary correction to them all. There is no real visible sway on any, they all need it to a degree, for full stance at least & knee. This is because there is no value for sway in any weapon file, this would mean a new string definition.

Thanks to Teamhot for the debate and making everyone aware that there is no sway on any weapon, which like they said is unreal. I look forward to any new modification.

viii

[PersianImmortal]

Once again, there is no need to present this as some sort of drama that the entire range of weapons in GRAW 2 need to be readjusted. People are not asking GRIN to make all the weapons hyper-realistic. At no point have I read anyone suggesting that every weapon be made totally realistic. We have requested that two specific weapons which are currently clearly exploitable (video evidence has been provided) be adjusted slightly to close this loophole.

Even with added scope sway when standing, and slightly slower scope up time, the M99 will still remain very unrealistic due to the way soldiers can run around with it with no movement penalty, and the fact that indeed no real sniper runs around with the Barrett M99 in the way this game depicts. A real sniper would have to move to a position slowly, deploy the M99 on the ground with a bipod or tripod, and not be able to get up and run away with it as easily as you can do with the M99 in the game. Nor indeed would a soldier be using an M99 as an anti-personnel weapon, it's primarily an anti-material weapon.

So even if the other weapons have slight inaccuracies, that balances out by fact that the M99 will still be unrealistic in several major regards. If used properly as a sniper weapon when prone, the M99 will have no scope sway, has a very accurate long-range scope, has no crosshair deviation due to recoil (i.e no shift in target after firing), and is still a one-shot instant kill weapon, hardly making it inferior to other weapons. It simply will no longer be exploitable.

And I completely agree with you - if other weapons or tactics are ever found to be exploitable in some way which can seriously affect game balance, then they should be reviewed. So far only the GL and M99 have proven themselves to be such, because they are instant kill weapons. I don't see any other weapon requiring any change, but if you have video evidence to the contrary please present it.

Edited July 29, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[viiiper]

I think you miss read something? I'm not making any drama, I'm responding to Rocky's post. Please re read my post in response to Rocky. I am stating facts, I checked xml coding and no weapons have sway. It is only in the fairness of balance that I state the fact.

Rocky please read my post, does it seem to be a drama? I made it as a summary of facts

[PersianImmortal]

I'm not really interested in playing word games with you viiiper. People can read your posts and decide for themselves exactly what your agenda has been. I know I've never asked for all the weapons to be totally realistic, I've just wanted a couple of clear exploits fixed. Yet somehow that always seems to get turned around into something else in this debate.

But if you're still interested in asking GRIN to reassess all the weapons for realism, you'll also ask them to make M99 carriers move more slowly due to the weight and length of the gun, and have the crosshair jump a fair bit off its target after firing each round. That's not what I want, but if you're going to pursue realism then that'd be the next thing you'd ask for.

[viiiper]

I'm not really interested in playing word games with you viiiper. People can read your posts and decide for themselves exactly what your agenda has been. I know I've never asked for all the weapons to be totally realistic, I've just wanted a couple of clear exploits fixed. Yet somehow that always seems to get turned around into something else in this debate.

But if you're still interested in asking GRIN to reassess all the weapons for realism, you'll also ask them to make M99 carriers move more slowly due to the weight and length of the gun, and have the crosshair jump a fair bit off its target after firing each round. That's not what I want, but if you're going to pursue realism then that'd be the next thing you'd ask for.

Dude, what is your problem? did you read Rocky's post?

Unless anyone has anything further, constructive and non-repetitive to say, I think we can call an end to M99 Awareness week, with thanks to TeamHot for "raising awareness"

It clearly states unless you have something new, then re frame from posting, I only posted a summary of FACTS & a NEW FACT TOO and you are attacking me with your endless posts. I'm not asking grin for anything. I'm stating FACTS, FACTS, FACTS.... stop posting none constructive, repetitive posts. This is you nothing to do with me, FACTS , FACTS, FACTS. Read Rocky's post please.

THE FACTS

[ruggbutt]

50 diffrent users posted, each user expressed an opinion that was for, against or neutral. From all the users, this was the outcome;

24 + for

16 - against

10 +/- neutral

It's wider ranging than that. Our whole squad would like to see the M99 and GL "fixed". Even our two snipers who totally pwn w/the M99 the way it is.

[PersianImmortal]

If grin do decide to act and make modifications to one weapon, I believe this would have to be done with all.

Thanks to Teamhot for the debate and making everyone aware that there is no sway on any weapon, which like they said is unreal.

Neither of the above from your post are facts, nor particularly constructive. In particular Teamhot did not try to make everyone aware that there is no sway on any weapon, that is your particular agenda to try to discredit the changes we suggested by saying that somehow now all weapons need to be altered, which I then countered with constructive facts explaining that this is not necessary. Particularly since noone has been calling for absolute realism in this thread.

However out of the realization of the sheer pointlessness of discussing anything with you, and out of respect for Rocky, I will not post any further in this thread.

Edited July 29, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[Undercoverman]

I feel I have to comment on that video, as it is being bandied around as 'evidence' when in actuality it is anything but. Granted, the video shows the destructive power of the M99 to great effect, but it in no way, shape or form demonstrates the weapon to be imbalanced or somehow too deadly. If anything, that video only proves one thing - that it is EASY to wreak havoc on an unorganised and fragmented team. EVERY kill in that video relied upon one thing - the ability to make a kill and not face repercussions. Each and every kill was followed by a period in which the player had to reload, and in many cases was a sitting duck, and in not one of them was this disadvantage 'exploited' by an opposing player, because there was NO communication, and NO covering.

Each player was a separate entity and as a result was easy to pick off, one by one. Now, I concede that the player in that video might not have had such relatively untroubled success with a different weapon, but the consequences would have been much the same for the opposing team. You even started popping them with your glock to relatively little recompense. That alone should prove to you that it is very little about the weapon itself, and more about organised resistance.

Furthermore, having spent time in a variety of public servers over the past few days, I certainly have NOT seen the levels of 'exploitation', a veritable epidemic that is rumoured to be in existence. The vast majority of snipers DO pick a spot and cover. Furthermore, I have seen a nice, wide spread of weapons APART from the near useless MGs, in which it is impossible to put down some semi-accurate sustained cover fire, even while prone. I also have not seen the sustained levels of GL abuse rumoured to also be in existence, although they did occur on one particular map (I'll leave you to guess which one, should be obvious to most), where most players switched to it in order to exploit the narrow channels players had to run down and pick up splash damage.

And what’s all this about muzzle climb and recoil? Has it escaped your attention that the M99 is bolt action? Recoil would only matter if you have the ability to fire off several rounds in quick succession. That is impossible. The FORCED removal of the sight picture in order to insert a new round is surely the greatest punishment.

So, what's my point? Your conclusions about the M99 are nowhere near as watertight or cast iron as you think they are, particularly those based upon that video. Although I have neither the time nor the inclination, I could go into any particularly isolated public server and start slotting people with the SCARH with impunity, firing and moving in much the same fashion as you did, then post it on here and claim it's overpowered. In fact, I was doing that last night with the silenced SCARH (kit 6, SCAR fans)... Would that make for exploitation? NO - it would be the inevitable result of playing against a disorganised and amateur team.

[viiiper]

50 diffrent users posted, each user expressed an opinion that was for, against or neutral. From all the users, this was the outcome;

24 + for

16 - against

10 +/- neutral

It's wider ranging than that. Our whole squad would like to see the M99 and GL "fixed". Even our two snipers who totally pwn w/the M99 the way it is.

As stated in the post, from the players that posted an opinion on this thread, those were the facts. Your own thoughts on it were added to the "for" group. As for the 1000's that didn't post, I can not comment, that's a fact.

If grin do decide to act and make modifications to one weapon, I believe this would have to be done with all.

Thanks to Teamhot for the debate and making everyone aware that there is no sway on any weapon, which like they said is unreal.

Neither of the above from your post are facts, nor particularly constructive. In particular Teamhot did not try to make everyone aware that there is no sway on any weapon, that is your particular agenda to try to discredit the changes we suggested by saying that somehow now all weapons need to be altered, which I then countered with constructive facts explaining that this is not necessary. Particularly since noone has been calling for absolute realism in this thread.

However out of the realization of the sheer pointlessness of discussing anything with you, and out of respect for Rocky, I will not post any further in this thread.

At last, thats all I've been saying, respect Rocky's post, I only posted FACTS, but you miss quoted (took out of context) my post, to make it sound like something else, no problem it happens. The facts I actually stated were;

Unless anyone has anything further, constructive and non-repetitive to say, I think we can call an end to M99 Awareness week, with thanks to TeamHot for "raising awareness"

I re read this thread, the facts are:

50 diffrent users posted, each user expressed an opinion that was for, against or neutral. From all the users, this was the outcome;

24 + for

16 - against

10 +/- neutral

This thread is the views of a section of uses, many not represented here, actually this thread represents the views of 50 posters (at the time of making this post) and not the thousands of players that bought the game. If grin do decide to act and make modifications to one weapon, I believe this would have to be done with all.

As quoted by 'Petsfed' and I checked it and it is true.

Actually, I noticed that there is no noticeable weapons sway if you're not moving. With any weapon. No matter the stance. That, I think, should be changed. Don't really care beyond that though. And while I'm not military trained, I do know that its difficult to keep even a little .22 THAT on target without external support (bench rest, bipod, etc). Enough shooting real firearms has taught me that.

This is a good point, I ask you GRIN to look as all weapons/ rifles and make the necessary correction to them all. There is no real visible sway on any, they all need it to a degree, for full stance at least & knee. This is because there is no value for sway in any weapon file, this would mean a new string definition.

Thanks to Teamhot for the debate and making everyone aware that there is no sway on any weapon, which like they said is unreal. I look forward to any new modification.

viii

[MorphingJar]

As stated in the post, from the players that posted an opinion on this thread, those were the facts. Your own thoughts on it were added to the "for" group. As for the 1000's that didn't post, I can not comment, that's a fact.

I can probably think of a good reason why there aren't a lot of posts. Most of the suggestions to help change the M99 for the better have already been made. Weapon Sway, slower scope up time, and inability to sprint while weapon is out are the 3 most logical places to start. Decreasing the weapon damage or removing ability for it to shoot through objects would take away from what the weapon is. Theres also the fact that they might be afraid of posting their thoughts because of people like you who try and shoot down everyone because you feel that as long as people use the weapon "As intended" that theres no problem with it.

[viiiper]

As stated in the post, from the players that posted an opinion on this thread, those were the facts. Your own thoughts on it were added to the "for" group. As for the 1000's that didn't post, I can not comment, that's a fact.

I can probably think of a good reason why there aren't a lot of posts. Most of the suggestions to help change the M99 for the better have already been made. Weapon Sway, slower scope up time, and inability to sprint while weapon is out are the 3 most logical places to start. Decreasing the weapon damage or removing ability for it to shoot through objects would take away from what the weapon is. there's also the fact that they might be afraid of posting their thoughts because of people like you who try and shoot down everyone because you feel that as long as people use the weapon "As intended" that theres no problem with it.

Now now, firstly, I don't shoot down. I present the opposite side on this topic, like it or not, it exists. Secondly, not everyone agrees with you or the others that are 'for' modifying, all I did was re read the whole thread, note how many people posted their view and what way that view was to. I then posted a small post after Rocky's conclusion, summarising that the for/ against and neutral views posted by members (that did take part) were as said.

I'm no magician or mind reader and know there are people with views that did not post and I said so, I could bet any Admin here at GR.net would agree, that nobody is afraid as you so put it, of posting there view. This is a forum and by definition the admins do a great job from stopping things getting personal, so your comment is invalid to say the least.

Please don't say that as long as I think it's ok, it's ok, because I don't. I say that in the fairness of all, all things should carry a balance to a degree, that balance which 24 of you proved to be incorrect in that there is no sway on the M99 is true, but also true for all weapons in GRAW2. If you fix that aspect then what's the harm in fixing it for all, none. Scope up time too, make it what you will, Sprint with load, true I agree with you, down grade the sprint ability for loading, if a ghost is carrying 12kg and another is carrying a 24kg load (M99 + side) then he should run slower, if a Ghost is carrying a SCAR-H & secondary at 20Kg he should be slower than the 12Kg loaded guy, I do not disagree.

[Lnwlf]

Furthermore, having spent time in a variety of public servers over the past few days, I certainly have NOT seen the levels of 'exploitation', a veritable epidemic that is rumoured to be in existence. The vast majority of snipers DO pick a spot and cover. Furthermore, I have seen a nice, wide spread of weapons APART from the near useless MGs, in which it is impossible to put down some semi-accurate sustained cover fire, even while prone. I also have not seen the sustained levels of GL abuse rumoured to also be in existence, although they did occur on one particular map (I'll leave you to guess which one, should be obvious to most), where most players switched to it in order to exploit the narrow channels players had to run down and pick up splash damage.

no one said there was rampant usage of this exploit destroying gameplay, it was pointed out that there was one and that it should be addressed. I doubt even 10% of the people that play this game were even aware that this was possible, however as stated, we pointed it out as we recognized the serious imbalance that this provides. Your reading comprehension could use a little work. ggs for trying to sound intelligent though.

[viiiper]

Your reading comprehension could use a little work. ggs for trying to sound intelligent though.

I'm sure 'Undercoverman' needs no support from me but, personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum and English for some is not the first language, no need as white knight has already pointed out.

[Lnwlf]

Your reading comprehension could use a little work. ggs for trying to sound intelligent though.

I'm sure 'Undercoverman' needs no support from me but, personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum and English for some is not the first language, no need as white knight has already pointed out.

lol

[Sleepdoc-iBeta]

Personal attacks on any member of GR.net is a personal assault on all its members.

It means that every member is potentially about to be a victim of internet intimidation and rudeness and it creates an atmosphere of paranioa and censorship. Its internet bully nonsense and the line is clearly crossed. It means that anyone who may have otherwise participated in good faith in this thread now has to be concerened about being personally attacked.

Rocky,

We all come to here to debate. and sometimes even with passion and conviction. But we do not come here to be called stupid or noobs or whatever. I am growing weary of this thread and the name calling that is starting to emerge. It is starting to reduce GR.net to look like every other rude and immature forum out there. Please do not allow this to occur.

Please close this thread. It has more than run its course.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Sleepdoc

[viiiper]

Agreed

[Rocky]

Yes, the discussion is now going downhill. To help prevent anyone saying something that will cause further divisions I'll call time on it here.

With thanks to all the contributors, who regardless of how it may seem at times in this discussion, do have a common aim.