Gamespy- Christian Allen on the future of...

[Hatchetforce]

Then Hatchetforce, why don’t you take your written abilities and join us? Instead of bashing on the good people that have been screaming their outrage on different forums, trying to make the makers understand.

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First of all, enough bashing is being done...by several posters on various forums. And 'Screaming their outrage"? Brilliant idea. That will get the devs to listen. There is nothing like a blithering maniac in a tantrum to clarify a precise concern. Especially to people on a tight schedule that are rationing their time. Screaming is a big part of the problem. Have you ever seen a movie with people in a hurricane trying to scream instructions? One of them often dies.

I have attempted to explain to people on countless occasions how screaming accomplishes nothing. In reality the screaming fans are more deaf than those they attack. Screaming at a Developer solves no problems and your cries fall on deaf ears. Do you know what fanaticism is? It is redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aims. It requires a different tact.

It would be helpful if people quite living in a fantasy world and understood that devs do not just snap their fingers and change the direction of a multimillion dollar project. Think of it if one surgeon in a hospital decided he was going to move everyone to a different ward and put the emergency room on the roof. The board of directors would laugh him out of the meeting. Even if his name was House. Get the picture? Game making at major studios is big business. That doesn't mean great ideas can't get through, but you have to stop attacking the only people that can get your ideas to the decision makers.

First you identify the problem or shortcoming. You describe it, you explain it. Then, and here is where people begin to fall short, you offer a viable alternative. Would that this were enough, but it isn't. Now you must demonstrate why your method works and why it is what the people want. Standing around and caterwalling "Blah blah blah! This is what everyone wants!" proves nothing and is a complete and utter waste of time. Devs bypass posts that do nothing but attack. You waste your time as well as everyone's on the forum.

Remember Black? Everyone said it was the holy grail of shooters? Well it slammed into the ground at mach 9. The dev team was livid, the project lead was screaming at the pubic. He was taught a lesson. Not by attacks. He did complain about those. But the main way to get what you want from a team is by precision and to vote with your wallet. If it doesn't sell they will quite making it and change tact.

Blaming the console market for PC woes is a copout and just wrong. PC gamers are to blame. If PC games were more popular the market would focus on them more. If PC gamers didn't attempt to run the configuration from hell, support staff wouldn't be pulling their hair out trying to solve issues for 50,000 configurations of hardware. That doesn't mean games are not to blame in a problem situation, they often are. Also realize not every console gamer started out as a console gamer. Many left the PC or are split gamers. You have to stop looking at the two platforms as a dichotomy.

I remember reading an article by Anthony Brock blaming consoles for the death of PC gaming. Until PC Gamers accept some responsibility, they can't solve the problem.

At the end of the day, it is just about games. It is a great hobby and I enjoy it immensely. Quite taking it personally and you might have fun again. But if they ceased making games tomorrow, there are enough good ones out now to last me a lifetime.

[Hatchetforce]

I personally am split on the console\PC.  To be honest, I've enjoyed both mediums the same amount.  I love PC games, and I love console games.  I think the only person who is wrong in the whole argument is one that claims absolute superiority of one or the other.

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Blink..Blink...Blink...BuZZZZZZZZZZZ! The light is on somewhere else besides my place!

[Sup]

I personally am split on the console\PC.  To be honest, I've enjoyed both mediums the same amount.  I love PC games, and I love console games.  I think the only person who is wrong in the whole argument is one that claims absolute superiority of one or the other.

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Blink..Blink...Blink...BuZZZZZZZZZZZ! The light is on somewhere else besides my place!

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I've said this before too, It's merely lost in all my worthless posts.

[xG5kdo]

I think the problem is the perception of 'reality'. PC gamers say that their games are more 'realistic' than console, etc. etc.

The question that should be asked is, could a game be 'realistic'? Take a game like Ghost Recon for instance. Does anyone actually think that a 'gamer', playing from the safety and security of his/her comfortable home, really want to experience the realites of combat? Could a developer, unless perhaps in the future where holo-decks are real, actually 'recreate' the reality of war? I don't think so.

Take MoHAA, for instance. Do you really think that was what it was like at Normandy? Not even close.

I do not seek 'reality' in the games I play. I do not seek to recreate the atmosphere, experience, and feelings associated with combat. Like HF, I've had enough of that back in the Army. You know what I look for? Entertainment. I spent money to buy games, not so that I could be scared ######less, ###### my pants, feel the adrenalin drop and the nerve wrecking experience of seeing one of your best friends maimed or killed. I bought those games to relax. To enjoy myself after a long day's work. In MP, I want to be able to hang out with people I like that share a common hobby. I said it before in this forum, well the old one, that if you want reality, go join the armed forces. Don't play games. Don't expect it from games.

Regarding console: I've learned to appreciate console games. In some ways, they are more entertaining than PC games. The story are about on par. They have engaging characters, interesting plots, excellent gameplays, just like a PC game. Plus, they have two advantages:

1. They are cheaper. I'm scratching my head now thinking how I would be able to upgrade my PC with high-end video cards, physics card, and the rest to play the next generations of PC games. PC games might only cost you $45, upgrading your hardware to be able to play them would cost you alot more. Buying a PS2, I could play an excellent game like Metal Gear Solid Snake Eater without having to upgrade anything. Just plug it in the TV.

2. They're much more portable. Laptops are expensive, especially high-end ones. My friend and I used to lug a 16inch TV and a PS2 around when we went places for jobs, just so we would be able to play whenever we had down time.

Sure, a PC would be nice. A high end PC that could play every game in creation would be awesome! I want one myself. But I can't afford one. So...console it is.

Now, I don't have LIVE, or anything like that, but I think the online community for PC and console is about the same. Some are cool, others are dumb.

[connie lingus]

I think it's ok if some enjoy consoles and the linear arcade style of play that comes with them. Go fan-boy! Go fan-girl! ...etc.

It would be so very nice if the next-gen consoles delivered realism in these platforms, as it is I use a playstation type USB controller on EA sports games, until EA decided to ruin the NHL franchise a couple years ago with insane player speeds---what the fanboys love!

As to what I mean about realism, let me say that I quit playing GR1 almost two years ago, so GR1's limitations aren't what I'm using as a standard.

While I don't play VBS1 because I can't justify spending that much money and because the community is so small, I do play the military sim LOMAC which I will suggest may be more realistic than any fps sim, by virtue of the fact that sim time counts toward flight quals in RL.

Also, a version of this is being used to train Air Traffic Controllers. I can also attest that the radar and electronic countermeasures simulation is exactly what you would see and hear in reality.

I'll tell you right now---I don't like console fanboys and girls on the pc forums calling for and praising all those arcade features they like so much.

This is not to flame the console fans, but just to explain how PC fans feel.

[xG5kdo]

That's the point, you seem to be attributing certain features of certain games to the whole community.

Not all in the gaming community looks for fast-paced, arcade style games. Take the Metal Gear Solid titles for instance, or Splinter Cell, or other stealth oriented games. They offer different experiences, more tactical like.

Console games offer a surprisingly diverse genre of games. Alot of them very well done. From RPGs to RTSs to FPSs...alot of titles. More than the PC even. And they also cater to a surprisingly diverse group of fans. Its not like PC fans are all mature and what not.

The thing is, alot of people now prefer console games. I think because of the reasons I mentioned above, plus because you don't really need to know alot of stuff for console games. For people who are not heavy gamers, or people who are very busy during the week (of myself for instance, during the weekend too), consoles provide an easy, hassle-free, opportunity to relax. You don't have to know what sort of video-card or video-card drivers required to play certain games, you don't have to go through the disappointment of finding out that you can't play a game you bought because your system is not compatible, you don't have to tweak your settings just to play a single game...and so on and so forth. All you have to do is like a game, make sure its made for the console you own, buy it, bring it home, and play it. No hassles, no nothing. Face it, PC gaming takes alot of time. Console gaming doesn't.

So please do not paint everyone with the same wide brush. Perhaps you should try your hand on some console games. Just pick ones you think you like, and play it. Its alot of fun.

[connie lingus]

Well, your point is well taken.

I'm sorry if I mis-characterized the more serious console fans by not distinguishing them from the arcade fans.

[Hatchetforce]

Well, your point is well taken.

I'm sorry if I mis-characterized the more serious console fans by not distinguishing them from the arcade fans.

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It matters not whether you distinguished between the group you were attacking. The effect is the same. Going after consoles and holding them to blame for the loss of realism in PCs is misguided. They are no more responsible for the realism loss than the rest of the world is at fault because the market was out of your favorite Beanie Weenies.

As regards to whether a game uses realism, it is a given that unless you are there trying to drag a guy behind cover it isn't real. It also isn't real if you didn't spend all those years training and all that time planning for those moments of combat. If you are playing a title where the character had to go through an elimination and weeding out process - such as SOF or even a pilot, it isn't real. No one put you through countless physical and mental hurdles before you bought the game. Personally I do not look at matters of realism as above, but you also can't argue with it. If you want to say it's just a game, I'll say quit crying about realism then.

I do think a realism yardstick that isn't biased, can be placed down beside any title. By that I mean a realism yardstick that isn't based upon what one person wants rather than the way things are. Did the game do what was possible from a programming point to insure realism or were things taken down a path for the sake of game balance? I always consider the basic models, missions, etc before I look at things such as ballistics or penetration effects.

I'll start this by calling a console title out into the street. SOCOM 3 is a popular title I own and run about once a month. In MP, the terrorists have access to one of the most lethal weapons in the game, the P90 (Called F90 in game). The fact is FN is very selective about to whom they furnish this weapon. Right now they are on back order because of purchase by so many government agencies.

Now let' look at a PC title. In LOMAC, a title I own, an empty Mig 29 should be airborne in 150 meters. Unless you kick in the AB, the take off can be a mile and a half.

Now both the above titles can nail certain realism factors. Nothing duplicates actual flight like LOMAC. And when Black Shark gets here I know where a lot of my time will go. SOCOM 3 can produce some of the best Teamwork moments in gaming. Teamwork is also a realism issue.

There are a muiltitude of factors that must be reproduced in order for a game to be realistic by an unbiased yardstick. Of course only a few must be reproduced in order to have a fan screaming a title is or is not realistic. In such a case it is an individual perception. I have spoken to enough different people from different companies and my push has always been to keep it real. I feel that if something is changed simply for game balance then the dev team needs to rethink their approach. Things like sending a guy in solo just are not in the realm of possibility. It happens, but not when direct combat is inevitable. Instead, they should have the guy's Team get hit. Have them wounded and unable to move. He puts them in a fortified position and has to go for assistance. A real situation that has occurred and fits the parameters. It can be balanced and fun.

It is laughable when someone blames consoles for them not getting what they wanted for Christmas. "They ruined my PC game for consoles!" Well, perhaps if you had a legion of buyers behind you then this would not have happened. The inability to accept change is an entirely other matter best suited for discussions of the esoteric. Gamespy stats show the most popular gameservers are not running a title like LOMAC or Call of Duty 2. It's Half-life. Over 32,000 servers. Well thanks PC crowd for killing off the realism.

The main thing is to enjoy titles. There are so many angry people posting on message boards, attacking consolers or PC Gamers that I have to waste a few minutes and wonder what kind of miserable unfulfilled lives they lead. I used to date a Captain and she and I spent all of our leave time travelling to Africa, Borneo, Australia etc. to dive, skydive, climb and such. But if we wound up in a hotel instead of a tent she had a fit because it wasn't real, we weren't 'Having a National Geographic moment'. I kicked her to the curb because, among her other issues, she couldn't realize when things were out of her control. Instead of enjoying the great time we could, she ###### on all of it. Rather childish really.

HALO 2 is as unrealistic as they come. But more people have a blast with that game than any other title on LIVE. Some people, despite their bragging at reflex skills, do not possess the coordination for using a controller. I can't aim!" They get walloped by someone online and that's it. They inevitably become the fox and the sour grapes from Aesop's fable. They resort to calling console owners fanboys and fangirls. If you look at this forum, you will find the screaming is being done by PC gamers. People that live in glass houses...

But the point is try having fun with gaming again. If you can't laugh over a title, and have a great community experience because of a realism issue, then you have a problem. I start picturing the husband from Sleeping With The Enemy and his rage over the soup can labels not being aligned in the cabinet. After all, if you think the title you are running is realistic think again.

Complaining, whining, bellyaching, bitching, and screaming because a game isn't realistic by an individual standard is such a waste of time. And annoying, actually. When you can't see the forest for the trees it is time to get a new hobby. I do not mean that people should not voice their opinions. Not in the least. I have stated countless times that feedback is great. Opinion is definitely needed and good ideas come from a vocal community. But if you can't remember that gaming is supposed to be fun then turn the console or PC off and go get a life.

[Sup]

Well, your point is well taken.

I'm sorry if I mis-characterized the more serious console fans by not distinguishing them from the arcade fans.

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Liking a game that's more 'realistic' doesn't make you a 'serious fan' any more than liking action games. You're not somehow superior because you play ghost recon and won't go near a controller.

[jay316]

Well said Hatchetforce.

[connie lingus]

It matters not whether you distinguished between the group you were attacking. The effect is the same. Going after consoles and holding them to blame for the loss of realism in PCs is misguided. They are no more responsible for the realism loss than the rest of the world is at fault because the market was out of your favorite Beanie Weenies.

The lowest common denominator, the arcade fan, is what drove EA Sports to dumb down the greatest NHL hockey franchise ever. It wasn't enough to do this only on the console versions, but they decided to do this to the PC game as well.

As a result, I no longer buy EA's NHL, a game I played every year since 1992 on Sega, PS1 and then PC.

Arcade console players are having an effect on how companies make games for PC, and we have seen what this has done to GR2.

Still, there is a more serious/realism fan niche market that needs to be catered to and companies that do so will be rewarded.

LOMAC isn't for everyone, in fact it isn't for most people. There may not be as many servers as the hyper bunny-hopper Half Life, but it is a sucessful series nonetheless.

I just want the GR series to get back on track with it's original fanbase as well as winning over new fans, and I'm hoping they do. But, you can't take the approach of trying to please everyone, or you will definately will lose the more serious fans.

@sup

I'm not conceited, I'm just better than you are!

@jay

Well said, jay!

[Sup]

Still, there is a more serious/realism fan niche market...

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PC VIDEOGAMES ARE SERIOUS BUISNESS.

[Hatchetforce]

You can expect to see the GR series return to it's original fanbase when that fanbase outnumbers the console fanbase. That is part of the issue. Welcome to the future and the future is now. Console game sales easily outpace PC game sales. The 360 just became Australia's fastest selling console ever.

To reiterate. Console gamers are not to blame for PC game direction. rather PC gamers are. Specifically, THE LACK OF PC GAMERS. You cannot remedy a problem if you will not acknowledge it's cause.

Personally I like LOMAC. Of course I also like Dangerous Waters.

[calius]

No ones to "blame" at the user end ... we shouldnt be looking in both directions at oursleves but looking at the corperations pushing the buttons and swinging things into certain ways they want it to go. "they" build the pc's ... "they" build the consoles that "we" consume.

Why have people thinking for themselves when you get them hooked on linear thinking ... think about it ... from games through to life in general theres a pattern to it if you look hard enough and step away from the in-fighting (figure of speech not assuming this is a fight ) which we cant help but get caught up in.

Go to the source & where the money leads if you want any kind of "blame".

[Hatchetforce]

No ones to "blame" at the user end ... we shouldnt be looking in both directions at oursleves but looking at the corperations pushing the buttons and swinging things into certain ways they want it to go. "they" build the pc's ... "they" build the consoles that "we" consume.

Why have people thinking for themselves when you get them hooked on linear thinking ... think about it ... from games through to life in general theres a pattern to it if you look hard enough and step away from the in-fighting (figure of speech not assuming this is a fight  ) which we cant help but get caught up in.

Go to the source & where the money leads if you want any kind of "blame".

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Excellent post. If you go back to a previous one by me in this thread you will see I stated the two formats should not be viewed as a dichotomy. But there are those that insist on that delineation and that is the only narrow frame from which they can reference.

[connie lingus]

Of course we all understand that sales figures and a streamlining of game development have made consoles the primary market.

But sim games like LOMAC or IL2 simply cannot be produced on a console to be anywhere near the scope of what they are presently on PC.

Regardless of console sales, realism/ full immersion PC games are still a very profitable market particularly if that game plays to that market.

BTW In my observation most CS players are really console players, generally they do not like games like GR where the player run speed is closer to reality.

[Sup]

BTW In my observation most CS players are really console players, generally they do not like games like GR where the player run speed is closer to reality.

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This is nonsense.

It's a PC game. Thereby, if you play it, you're a PC player (excluding, of course, the unpopular Xbox version.)

Your views on consoles, also, are very unfair. You aren't somehow superior than a console player because you've inserted disk two to continue installation a few times in your life. You're just more closed-minded.

[Hatchetforce]

Of course we all understand that sales figures and a streamlining of game development have made consoles the primary market.

But sim games like LOMAC or  IL2 simply cannot be produced on a console to  be anywhere near the scope of what they are presently on PC.

Regardless of console sales, realism/ full immersion PC games are still a very profitable market particularly if that game plays to that market.

BTW In my observation most CS players are really console players, generally they do not like games like GR where the player run speed is closer to reality.

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That's your observation...and it is incorrect. I played a great deal of CS. I now run CS Source quite a bit. As I said before, most CS players are wed to their keyboard and mouse. It doesn't mean some don't run consoles, they do. But by far and large they prefer PC. I know, I run the game.

And GR speed isn't closer to reality. I know, it's my job. GR was accurate for the ops when it came out. But that just isn't the case anymore. SF operations have evolved to suit the modern battlefield. The majority of out work is DA. That means fast and violent. You know, CS speed.

[connie lingus]

And GR speed isn't closer to reality. I know, it's my job. GR was accurate for the ops when it came out. But that just isn't the case anymore. SF operations have evolved to suit the modern battlefield. The majority of out work is DA. That means fast and violent. You know, CS speed.

That's a load of Bravo Sierra.

I knew you were a bunny hopper, you bunny hopper!

[CR6]

BTW In my observation most CS players are really console players

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LOL, this is getting hilarious. Want to back up your statement where did you actually observe this?

All my friends who play CS regularly do not own a console, and are hardcore PC gamers who regularly upgrade their rigs.

CS is the most popular multiplayer PC game in the world - not just in the West, but Eastern Europe, Asia etc. Most people in those countries don't even have access to a Xbox or PS2.

[Sup]

That's a load of Bravo Sierra.

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Yeah!

Really, what was Hatchetforce thinking, going against your professional experience?

[Gordo_Viper]

Console Gaming Bunny Hoppers

That's a load of Bravo Sierra.

You should see HF's work mate, I've been there twice.... those guys bunny hop all over the place. There also big on playing airsoft too according to other know it alls

Trust me when people from their line of work state something it's accurate and been proved in combat many times over. As an example ever heard of the term rush in infantry or taking a bound? Watch below video and tell me if there going a at a CS Speed or GR1 Speed?

What speed are these Inf running at?

[Druac_Blaise]

Consoles are becoming more and more indistinguishable from a PC. And to be honest, the thing I don't like about consoles, in regards to shooters, is that I suck with a controller, period!

The whole argument that PC games are better in any way is becoming more and more moot due to the evolution of the console. I played GR:AW for the 360 and I had a blast finishing the SP campaign. If I could have plugged my mouse and keyboard into it, and had the option to remap the keys, I would have loved it all that much more.

The thing I don't get with GR:AW 360 was the two very different games (SP and MP). For the most part on PC's, the SP is very much like the MP in regards to features, graphics, etc. I just couldn’t get into the MP game for the two reasons above, the differences between the two and I just suck using a controller (never have been able to do as well as I do with mouse and keyboard).

So, all that being said, I think in the past some games were just better on a console or a PC, but that is changing. The only two genres I can think of that just work better on a PC, for me, is MMORPG's and First Person Shooters.

[connie lingus]

BTW In my observation most CS players are really console players

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LOL, this is getting hilarious. Want to back up your statement where did you actually observe this?

All my friends who play CS regularly do not own a console, and are hardcore PC gamers who regularly upgrade their rigs.

CS is the most popular multiplayer PC game in the world - not just in the West, but Eastern Europe, Asia etc. Most people in those countries don't even have access to a Xbox or PS2.

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Obviously if your CS friends don't have access to a console then they cannot play one---but I can assure you they would if only they could!

CS was a milestone game about what, seven years ago? The fact that they are still involved in this antique(both 1.6 and CSSource) lends credence to my observations.

The point being that an arcade fan doesn't need any improvements, just more of the same with uber graphics.

While I don't believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution, if you take a look at the Ascent of Man chart, most of todays CS players are somewhere between the Borneo Man and Australopicthicus. While it's true that some are extremely bright, I've found that most of these suffer from Attention Defecit Disorder and other learning disabilities.

(kidding)

Now seriously, as to the CS player speeds being unrealistic, I was not just referring to the tireless forward run speed with instant acceleration, but the fact that the speed is the same backwards as well as sideways. No human can do this, SF training or not.

Not to mention the jumping and MP exploits ala Neo from The Matrix.

To be fair,(which is more than he deserves)Hatchet may have only been referring to the forward speed, and not the rest of the movement.

This almost could be possible on iceskates, though EA Sports made them go from 40mph to like 60mph and thereby ruining the franchise for me.

On the subject of speed, I felt that SWAT 4's player speed was absurdly slow and that along with some other glaring faults that were never fixed, helped to dampen many peoples enthusiasm for what is an otherwise excellent game.

Although, S4 was a commercial success, a practice of studiously ignoring the fans made many leave the scene early---without buying the addon.

[Hatchetforce]

You are laughable. No one is saying people do Matrix tricks you silly rabbit. You are going off the deep end. Walk toward the light....walk toward the light....

They would play a console if they had access? Now you are just making things up to save embarassment and support an erred position. Where do people live that they have PCs with internet and no consoles? Console games easily out sell PC games. Anyone can see they are a bit more available. Really, just give up already. Your argument has degraded into merry ole land of farce.

The fact that you accord arcade title enjoyment with intelligence reveals exactly who here among us has yet to evolve. Snobbery and elitist attitudes are the refuge of the insecure.

The fact that CS has survived this long in it's varied incarnations is a testament to it's appeal. If you believe it's appeal is intelligence related, you may be correct insofar as the purity of it's FPS format is a simplicity beyond your intellectual ability to grasp. Even if I do not care for a title I can at least understand it's appeal. For someone that spent an entire paragraph laying claim to all manner of highbrow gaming you are extremely shortsighted.

CS is antique? I see, you are one of those people that believe more is better. I have news for you. It isn't Dr Condescension. It requires that a title be made correctly. Simple often = good. Too many titles attempt to be everything to everyone and wind up being nothing to anybody. But that may be your issue. You are incapable of grasping the sublime when it is sparse.

CS today isn't your dad's CS. The Source engine is no laughing matter even now.

The basic speed of the game though is correct. Been there, done that, kicked more doors than you have walked through in a month. When you see a Team hauling ass from a Humvee and sprinting into a building or off the tail of a MH47, you will understand...not. That much is patently clear. For all your purported intelligence the obvious eludes you.