Realism

[jsonedecker]

Here is a question on recoil... since none of these guns are in service yet... how do we know what the recoil is? aren't they made with more plastic parts? wouldn't that make them lighter + have more recoil on auto? I don't know so i am just asking.

As for bullet drop... most battles aren't close to the distance needed and to make the game fun, i noticed at longer distances it sometimes takes more hits depending on your caliber of weapon. Bullet drop would reduce the fun factor as would wind and such. (example... GR1 had neither and i don't think it's recoil was realistic without a mod, instead it used ret bloom to simulate)

Some of these weapons are fictional. Others are in service. And the rest have been tested but not mass produced. The last two categories are not made with 'plastic'. There are composite materials in some but they aren't the same weight as a BB gun. Weapon construction materials only influence recoil if they weigh a ton. Weight isn't the major determination factor in recoil compensation. It's design. An example is the fact that the lans and grooves in the twist of the barrel are a big contributer to recoil. Then there is the type of system of operation used (gas, etc) and the recoil compensation system as well.

If you are shooting on full auto, things have usually gone very bad. Most engagements we use semi auto. It's precision fire that counts most of the time.

I'll throw in that the operator has a lot to do with recoil as well. I had the oppurtunity to shoot various MP5's along side a Delta aoperator and let me tell you, his grouping was understandibly spot on. Mine on the other hand was a bit, shall we say, larger.

I have shot for years and am pretty good in a civilian sort of way and the MP5 is one of the most stable weapons around. But, my inexperience with it and various other "regular guy" characteristics of mine made the weapon shoot completely different for each of us.

Nothing to do with gaming really.

-John

[FA sear]

I'll throw in that the operator has a lot to do with recoil as well. I had the oppurtunity to shoot various MP5's along side a Delta aoperator and let me tell you, his grouping was understandibly spot on. Mine on the other hand was a bit, shall we say, larger.

I have shot for years and am pretty good in a civilian sort of way and the MP5 is one of the most stable weapons around. But, my inexperience with it and various other "regular guy" characteristics of mine made the weapon shoot completely different for each of us.

Nothing to do with gaming really.

-John

Those are good points, but in GR the characters are spec ops guys. I can shoot a 3-4" group with an MP5 at 25 feet, and that is unloading straight through all 30 rounds, so needless to say the "ghosts" should be able to do just as well if not better.

MP5s and M4s can be shot with one hand like a pistol, so there no reason that recoil should be an issue in this game. .308 full auto? Sure, but nothing firing a 5.56mm or 9mm should have anything more than VERY minimal ret movement in a game like this.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

recoil with new 1.10 patch is less... check it out

[sui317]

@hatchetforce

thanks for your answere(s) appriciate it very much

[Hatchetforce]

I'll throw in that the operator has a lot to do with recoil as well. I had the oppurtunity to shoot various MP5's along side a Delta aoperator and let me tell you, his grouping was understandibly spot on. Mine on the other hand was a bit, shall we say, larger.

I have shot for years and am pretty good in a civilian sort of way and the MP5 is one of the most stable weapons around. But, my inexperience with it and various other "regular guy" characteristics of mine made the weapon shoot completely different for each of us.

Nothing to do with gaming really.

-John

Those are good points, but in GR the characters are spec ops guys. I can shoot a 3-4" group with an MP5 at 25 feet, and that is unloading straight through all 30 rounds, so needless to say the "ghosts" should be able to do just as well if not better.

MP5s and M4s can be shot with one hand like a pistol, so there no reason that recoil should be an issue in this game. .308 full auto? Sure, but nothing firing a 5.56mm or 9mm should have anything more than VERY minimal ret movement in a game like this.

MP5 shot one handed? M4? No not really. Not if you are implying any sort of accuracy. I can shoot a 45-60 one handed, but who would want to? 7.62 full auto from small arms - that is, not a light MG? Not a good idea unless it is an absolute tactical necessity. We had modified G3s for testing. These were cut down versions. One model with an integral suppressor, one model without. The model without put the 1st round on target. By the 5th round it was anti-aircraft fire. The jump between ballistic kick of a 5.56 and a 7.62 round is substantial. Recoil, well, that's weapon design.

If I take proper position - NOTE THOSE WORDS - I can put all the rounds center mass on full auto from an M4 at 25 meters. But that is part of the problem. Recoil in game is being judged by the full auto mode. When in fact most shooting - the intelligent kind anyway- is done on semi auto. Get that fixed first then worry about the full auto. If anyone has small arms and are running around on full auto, then you deserve to be capped. Eventually you may learn a lesson.

Hollywood movie guns don't recoil properly because the blanks have just enough charge to cycle the mechanism and there is no round travelling down the barrel inducing twist opposite the barrel twist lans and grooves. Don't use films as a yardstick.

As I said, standing on the range and shooting a group is a lot different than shooting in combat. Do what we do. Get in full kit stand on the range. Try this at distances from 10-25 meters and do this:

Place your weapon down. Drop and do 50 REAL pushups, jump up and sprint 300 meters, turn around and sprint back no ass grabbing, I mean sprint. Drop and do 50 REAL pushups now stand and immediately engage your range targets. Still got that group?

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I get very little recoil in single shot mode... i can just keep popping in GRAW with the x8. I can also burst and stay on target... over 2nds and it gets a little jumpy.

[FA sear]

I'll throw in that the operator has a lot to do with recoil as well. I had the oppurtunity to shoot various MP5's along side a Delta aoperator and let me tell you, his grouping was understandibly spot on. Mine on the other hand was a bit, shall we say, larger.

I have shot for years and am pretty good in a civilian sort of way and the MP5 is one of the most stable weapons around. But, my inexperience with it and various other "regular guy" characteristics of mine made the weapon shoot completely different for each of us.

Nothing to do with gaming really.

-John

Those are good points, but in GR the characters are spec ops guys. I can shoot a 3-4" group with an MP5 at 25 feet, and that is unloading straight through all 30 rounds, so needless to say the "ghosts" should be able to do just as well if not better.

MP5s and M4s can be shot with one hand like a pistol, so there no reason that recoil should be an issue in this game. .308 full auto? Sure, but nothing firing a 5.56mm or 9mm should have anything more than VERY minimal ret movement in a game like this.

MP5 shot one handed? M4? No not really. Not if you are implying any sort of accuracy. I can shoot a 45-60 one handed, but who would want to? 7.62 full auto from small arms - that is, not a light MG? Not a good idea unless it is an absolute tactical necessity. We had modified G3s for testing. These were cut down versions. One model with an integral suppressor, one model without. The model without put the 1st round on target. By the 5th round it was anti-aircraft fire. The jump between ballistic kick of a 5.56 and a 7.62 round is substantial. Recoil, well, that's weapon design.

If I take proper position - NOTE THOSE WORDS - I can put all the rounds center mass on full auto from an M4 at 25 meters. But that is part of the problem. Recoil in game is being judged by the full auto mode. When in fact most shooting - the intelligent kind anyway- is done on semi auto. Get that fixed first then worry about the full auto. If anyone has small arms and are running around on full auto, then you deserve to be capped. Eventually you may learn a lesson.

Hollywood movie guns don't recoil properly because the blanks have just enough charge to cycle the mechanism and there is no round travelling down the barrel inducing twist opposite the barrel twist lans and grooves. Don't use films as a yardstick.

As I said, standing on the range and shooting a group is a lot different than shooting in combat. Do what we do. Get in full kit stand on the range. Try this at distances from 10-25 meters and do this:

Place your weapon down. Drop and do 50 REAL pushups, jump up and sprint 300 meters, turn around and sprint back no ass grabbing, I mean sprint. Drop and do 50 REAL pushups now stand and immediately engage your range targets. Still got that group?

Hatchet, my point was that the way the rounds spray in most video games is over done. Yes, many places do drills like what you pointed out, run a 440 etc... then try shooting with accuracy (yes it is difficult, as you already know), but in these games before you do anything the rounds are already spraying all over the place right from the start.

I have shot a G3, and straight through the 20rd mag too. All 20 rounds hit in a 3 foot group at 40 feet. It was hardly antiaircraft fire. There are plenty of people that can shoot a torso target with an M4 at 25 yards in a standing position and lay 25rds or more on it. As you know, full auto fire from a 5.56mm can be easy to control if shot often enough.

The .308 that I shot which had very minimal muzzle rise and recoil was a Noveske AR10. The guy said the upper ran him $2,000 or something, and the way he described it was hard to believe until I lit off a few rounds. Maybe describing that it felt like a 5.56mm is a bit of a stretch, but I can tell you with certainty that it did not feel like any .308 that I have ever shot. Most 39mm 7.62s that I shot had more kick. I don't know what else to tell you about the Noveske, as I have not yet owned one, but it was unlike any .308 that I have ever shot.

I'm not trying to say that full auto fire should be used all the time in combat. You of course are right when you say that single shots are what should be used, I am just saying that full auto fire is poorly represented in some games. What you are saying about shooting in combat is not the issue I am addressing here. I don't disagree with your statements about these matters, I am only addressing starting a game, and as soon as you fire in full auto mode the rounds are all over the place.

I shot the SAW in GR once when an enemy suddenly ran around a corner. I shot some 30-40 rounds before the guy was hit. I was not running either, nor had I been running just before. As I almost always do in GR, I was in a crouched position, so when I was shooting I was even down on one knee. This is just a poor representation in the game. To clarify this specific matter is what I am addressing, nothing else.

Perhaps I should have made my previous post more clear, but again, I did not mean full auto fire in general.

Edited May 26, 2006 by jchung

[Hatchetforce]

Old G3s are easy to shoot. I am talking about a modified (cut down) G3 that was their SOF weapons bid prototype. Myself and other very experienced operators tossed the unsuppressed version back on the table as even for us it was uncontrollable in short bursts. Controllable means I can double tap reliably, a head shot. It means I can put two rounds in the sternum and one immediately following in the head. We couldn't every time. Unaccepatble. But since you are a better shot than SFARTEC grads and guys with tons of combat experience you could probably go full auto with the weapon over your shoulder and a mirror.

You are missing the point. We run stress drills not just because we think we are going to be shooting after climbing a mountain. When you are in a situation and death is going to be breathing down your neck and you are hunting men to kill them, I mean you know any minute it is going to happen, it isn't like lying on the range. Take those Walker Texas Ranger vhs tapes and box them up.

A lot of us thrive in a situation like that, but it is still tense. You normally aren't thinking about matters, but your body is still hopped up in over drive.

Shooting often enough has little to do with accuracy and control. If you do not have proper technique, all repeated shooting does is reinforce bad technique. It requires proper knowledge to make those extra rounds expended on the range truly benficial. I can take a guy, give him instruction and 100 rounds and he'll be a better shot than some guy teaching himself bad habits that has fired 1000 rounds.

You are saying full auto fire is represented poorly in games and I say not always. It may be true when you are lying on the range someplace, but normally if you are on full auto things have gone bad, stress is high, and you may in fact be moving trying to break contact. For the umpteenth time stop trying to equate range experiences with shooting in a combat situation. Some points are valid as regards mechanics but the minute you induce death into the situation shooting dynamics change drastically. If you don't want to take my word for it fine, I'll butt out and you can regale us with your experiences.

People will say, "Well we are supposed to be experienced SOF Operators in the game". True, but see my comments below on game balance.

One of the things about the mac 11 was it would fire 1150 rounds a minute. And you could rattle of a mag in just over a second and be surprised how little damge you have done. I have seen enough people get a wall of lead thrown at them and come through it without a scratch. The SAW is a bullet hose and in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing it is a dangerous piece of equipment. They know how to fire properly and they know how to manage the cone.

I am not saying that it is the norm to dodge a ton of rounds. Not at all, but it does happen.

Do I think weapons accuracy is represented well here. Of course not. But there are also factors not being weighed that people shooting on a range think they have covered. They haven't.

Choices were made in this title regarding game balance and game play. Apparently some people have a short memory as regards the long exchanges I had with Grin Desmond on the realism topic. I am not rehashing that. People are partly to blame themselves for building in their own mind the idea this was going to be some GR1/VBS1 hybrid. No. It isn't. And it won't be patched in that direction either. In a normal situation a real SF Team will decimate the enemy in the situations I have seen depicted in the game. Then people would be caterwalling about how the game was too short, too easy, and the enemy was too dumb. They are , but that is beside the point.

Save yourself any further headaches and get a copy of VBS1. If you think about all of the titles you have spent money on that left you disappointed, you could have afforded VBS1 by now.

[FA sear]

Your points are well made, and I have yet to refute anything you have said. I know what the stress drills are for, so you don't have to explain them to me.

Sorry, I don't have any Walker Texas Ranger videos to box up either. I never cared for that show.

I gave you a specific example that I have experienced while running GR, and it is not something that has only happened once. THAT is what I am addressing. I'm simply bringing up something about the game that is either inconsistent, or not quite accurate, that is all. It is not a big deal, just something that is being discussed here in this thread.

I realize that compromises need to be made, and yes, that is okay. This is just simply a discussion on the issue and a point being made that XY and Z just happen to be issues in the game. I can see that someone has already made a mod at this point, so frankly, this is a dead issue.

AGAIN, I gave you a specific example of what happened to me in a game, and it is just that, an issue about the game, and AGAIN, I understand that compromises have to be made, and that is fine. This is an internet forum, and we are just having a discussion here right? I'm not flaming GRIN, or UBI and I don't intend to either. I realize that the business and dev decisions they make are for valid reasons, whatever they may be.

As far as the G3 goes, no I have not fired the varient you speak of, I shot a standard .308 full auto. Just out of curiosity though, did it fire anything like the HK51?

Just checked out VBS, and it looks good, but I'm not sure where you got the idea that I have spent THAT much on games. With all the addons it looks like it would run me about 3X more than I have ever spent on gaming. $20 on a game here and there is about all I have spent. Most of these games had been out for a few years by the time I got to them.

I also have not been disappointed by most of the games I have run. Most of the games that I have run have actually been interesting titles. Headaches over a few disappointing video games? Wouldn't happen here. If it happened that all video games turned into games I didn't like, I might miss it, but it is hardly anything that would anger me.

Edited May 26, 2006 by jchung