How do you complain about someone...

[Sir Hugh Jarse]

I have a complaint and this forum stresses it's the place to air it;

No doubt most of you probably didn't get to read the recently deleted thread in 'Real World Military' started recently by a British teenager, entitled 'GR.net military experience'. He asked if any of us 'geeks' had any military experience and for us to talk about it. He informed us that;

"My self, i have had millitary experience, 40% of it self taught millitary knowledge, and the other 60% I learned during my time at the Army Cadet Force which I'm going back to soon." The ACF is an Army funded youth organisation similar to the Scouts. He then went on to say how he'd probably rejoin the ACF and how he'd love to join

To cut a long story short and without going into too much detail, his misuse of the word 'experience' was taken quite literally and he was belittled and ridiculed by three individuals [regulars on these forums], two of which were 'Consultants', and basically saying "there is no such thing as self taught military experience". Well of course there isn't! In the end these comments made this young man tell everyone that he felt stupid and he even apoligsed to everyone for starting the thread in the first place!!!

I replied to this and it was in defence of the young man and very critical of the three individuals. I explained to them what kind of organisation the ACF was [coming from North America it was unlikely they'd heard of it] and then went on to explain that this would indicate that the creator of the thread was in fact a teenager ie. a boy and that the people making a mockery of his experience should know better.

Imagine to my surprise when, shortly after I posted my reply it was edited [The removal of a complete paragraph stating the above and naming names]by none other than one of the people I was complaining about. Not only is he a 'Consultant' it turns out he's also a 'Moderator'. He PM'd me [using the line "listen pal"] and told me basically if I have a problem then I should keep it private and not public.

I did report the thread [hence it being promptly removed]. My concern here is where does one stand when one has a complaint about someone and that someone turns out to be both 'Consultant' and 'Moderator' and not only edits your reply but tells you to keep it quiet. Who recruits the 'Consultants', what credentials do they have, and most of all who's monitoring them?

As this is a complaint thread I feel it would be inappropriate for 'Staff' or 'Moderators' to remove it, but rather reply in a professional manner and hopefully prevent such heated threads in the future.

[snakebite1967]

i must say that i was very surprised how his post was replied too, it seemed to be a simple mistake in his wording but definitly not justifying the replies he got ,this is a good forum with a good bunch of guys id suspect that it was taken too seriously, with out checking the posters details

[NightCrawler]

You would want to direct that kind of correspondence to Rocky.

[Stinger]

First off how's about we dont delete this post okay. I feel this is an important issue. I do not know what the names of the consultants are nor did I read any of that thread.

I have known staff to "bully" members before and when you tell somebody whether it be another member or one of the admins it is ignored. Because they are a very tightly knit circle and it's hard to tell one of your friends how to behave. This however is not my site. It is Rocky's and he decides in the end.

I just think the staff need to be more open to what is going on instead of an automatic u are wrong shut up go away posture.

[Rocky]

My concern here is where does one stand when one has a complaint about someone and that someone turns out to be both 'Consultant' and 'Moderator' and not only edits your reply but tells you to keep it quiet. Who recruits the 'Consultants', what credentials do they have, and most of all who's monitoring them?

In a nut shell.

1. rocky@ghostrecon.net The buck stops there. Mail me your complaint (include all correspondence).

2. I personally hired every Consultant (they are all moderators).

3. I do not monitor them, I trust them. If something crops up (like this), I deal with it.

4. You PMd a complaint about that thread. I replied it would be handled internally. You just made it public, not a problem.

5. The only person who took offence in the thread in question, was you. I have not recieved a complaint from anyone else, not least the original poster you are apparantly defending.

6. I agree that one of the posts in that thead was not characteristic of the way we normally handle ourselves in these forums.

And to Stinger.

1. Show me ONE case of ANYONE bullying ANYONE in these forums or post an apology in this thread for intimiting that is goes on.

[NightCrawler]

Bullying?!? I've been here going on 2 yrs and have yet to see any of that from the moderators or Admin, care to explain yourself on this one?

This is hands down the finest forum on the entire internet, run by some good people whom do their very best to keep it that way.

They are a tight knit group, so what? I think that is a good thing, most if not all of them are on the same page most of the time.

Not one of them has every claimed to be perfect, but they do the best they can.

[Stinger]

He PM'd me [using the line "listen pal"] and told me basically if I have a problem then I should keep it private and not public.

I consider that bullying so they dont look bad in public.

[Rocky]

I have known staff to "bully" members before and when you tell somebody whether it be another member or one of the admins it is ignored. Because they are a very tightly knit circle and it's hard to tell one of your friends how to behave. This however is not my site. It is Rocky's and he decides in the end.

I take great exception to all of that statement.

Show me

1. An example of Staff Bullying

2. An example of someone reporting Bullying, and it being ignored.

You have over 83,000 posts to find one example.

I (and all staff) take a great pride in these forums being a civil and friendly place for everybody - we put a heap of hours into it, and it pays off. I get mail every month thanking me for our efforts.

You just made a serious accusation, and now I am asking you to substantiate it.

[NightCrawler]

So you're using hear say, as your example of Bullying?

[Rocky]

He PM'd me [using the line "listen pal"] and told me basically if I have a problem then I should keep it private and not public.

I consider that bullying so they dont look bad in public.

Stinger, you have not EVEN SEEN that PM, you are no NO position to value or draw conclusions from it.

You clearly said that YOU have known Staff to bully. Now show us what you have got.

[Stinger]

This is hands down the finest forum on the entire internet, run by some good people whom do their very best to keep it that way.

I agree (for what its about anyways).

They are a tight knit group, so what? I think that is a good thing, most if not all of them are on the same page most of the time.

If a stranger came up to you and told u your best friend stole something and your friend said he didnt who would you believe? (a little different but you get the idea)

Not one of them has every claimed to be perfect, but they do the best they can.

Again I agree but that doesn't mean that they are always good.

I didn't mean to step on anybody's toes and looks like I just did/am ###### off more people which is not what I am trying to do this is just my opinion.

Here are some definitions now provided by our good friends at dictionary.com:

To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner

Telling him to take it private and to "listen up" is bullying. Why wouldn't they want him to speak? Maybe cause it would make them look bad???

To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation

Who (besides me) ever disagrees with a staff member in something that isn't nominal as in what is the best car what is the coolest game etc. So its an intimidating role.

It doesn't matter if somebody else expierienced it okay I still know about it and I am going to try and get a copy of the pm.

[NightCrawler]

You'd be better off to keep your hands in your pockets.

[Rocky]

This is hands down the finest forum on the entire internet, run by some good people whom do their very best to keep it that way.

I agree (for what its about anyways).

They are a tight knit group, so what? I think that is a good thing, most if not all of them are on the same page most of the time.

If a stranger came up to you and told u your best friend stole something and your friend said he didnt who would you believe? (a little different but you get the idea)

Not one of them has every claimed to be perfect, but they do the best they can.

Again I agree but that doesn't mean that they are always good.

I didn't mean to step on anybody's toes and looks like I just did/am ###### off more people which is not what I am trying to do this is just my opinion.

Here are some definitions now provided by our good friends at dictionary.com:

To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner

Telling him to take it private and to "listen up" is bullying. Why wouldn't they want him to speak? Maybe cause it would make them look bad???

To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation

Who (besides me) ever disagrees with a staff member in something that isn't nominal as in what is the best car what is the coolest game etc. So its an intimidating role.

It doesn't matter if somebody else expierienced it okay I still know about it and I am going to try and get a copy of the pm.

I am still waiting for that proof. All you have posted is anecdotes, show me an example.

You can get a copy of the PM if you want - it is irrelevant - you were taking about instances prior to this mountain out of a mole hole - not this case. It's time to put up Stinger.

[Stinger]

A number of members here can vouch for this as I have deleted the pm but not too long ago a High ranking staff member who's name shall remain private for now accidently sent me a pm regarding his thoughts of me as a loose cannon and that another member should go around my back to prevent me from helping somebody with an issue. That is just dirty bullying or not. Ill see if I can find some of the posts I vividly remember but it will take time if done.

So because the earlier is not an isntance I personally expierience are u going to ignore the fact it happened or just let it blow by and make me take crap loads of ######?

Edited August 8, 2003 by Stinger

[Rocky]

So because the earlier is not an isntance I personally expierience are u going to ignore the fact it happened or just let it blow by and make me take crap loads of ######?

Where did I say I was going to ignore it?

When the complainant send it to me I will investigate it - you see, I will have information at that point. Where as you like to make assumptions and draw conslusions without seeing the actual messages.

[Rocky]

A number of members here can vouch for this as I have deleted the pm but not too long ago a High ranking staff member who's name shall remain private for now accidently sent me a pm regarding his thoughts of me as a loose cannon

You are a loose cannon. You engage the keyboard prior to engaging your brain.

[NightCrawler]

I hope this is not a reference to one of my posts.

another member should go around my back to prevent me from helping somebody with an issue. That is just dirty bullying or not.

I was not slinking around behind anyone's back, I just stated what was truth.

[Stinger]

Nothin I have said is about u NC;)

You are a loose cannon. You engage the keyboard prior to engaging your brain.

Seems that is an opinion for one and

#  [3.3] Flame wars : Flaming is a past time that does have a place on the World Wide Web, but that place is not here. If you cannot hold a reasoned debate without resorting to Flaming, you are not welcome here.

Thats's a flame and u know it. If it isn't I would like proof it isnt or an apology.

More from out friends on insult aka flame:

To give offense; offend: a speech that was intended to insult

To affront or demean: an absurd speech that insulted the intelligence of the audience.

An offensive action or remark.

Edited August 8, 2003 by Stinger

[Ruin]

Oh boy... This is gonna get bad...

[Pyro_Monty]

Yeah, but check the ratings this thread is getting! There're like 12 people veiwing it right now!

[NightCrawler]

Last count I saw 11!

edit make that 12 1 guest.

Edited August 8, 2003 by NightCrawler

[Pyro_Monty]

Meant 12, finger slipped.

[Ruin]

Looks like we had the same thought at the same time Pyro, LMFAO!

12 people in this thread, unbelieveable...

[Stinger]

Maybe me and rocky should stary a t.v. show lol Like 13 viewers. This can be done without making people ###### and getting this locked. I don't want it bad and I dont know but I doubt Rocky is so mad he wold like to put a couple 9mm's in my chest so if we can keep it civil maybe it sta open.

[ReconSnake]

Since I am the moderator Mr. Jarse, Hugh is refering to, I will say this:

I let him off easy. The guy was clearly flaming based on a misinterpretation. Many of you didn't see all his posts from last night because I deleted the inflammatory ones. His non-insultive points were left up for responses. I contacted Mac (the one who started the thread today) and I feel there is no problem between me and him what-so-ever.

I bullied no one, I simply told Jarse

a) any problem he has with me where he feels the need to be insulting should be handled in private

&

B) if he continued to flame I would seek his banning.

Stinger, you have no proof of me bullying anyone, and I resent your implication. I will also state that you never received any PM from me insulting you - for the people who have read your posts in this thread and might be wondering.

Rocky, thank you for your faith.