Reaching the limit on the amount of missions?

[rahnman]

*Due to the amount of missions we now include in the bundle files we are now reaching the limit as to what GRAW2 can handle.

I had the same thing happen to me when I loaded Bogie's "lavamiento" mission. I tried doing what Anthony suggested and moved this mission to its own custom levels folder and had no problem running the mission. I now have 2 "custom levels" folders. One has all the tdm's, HH, Seige etc maps in it. The other has all the coop missions. Seems to work pretty well for now. Still, that may only be for the time being. I think it would be good to try and address this issue in some way. It may be a good idea to have options when downloading a mission. Like Anthony, we usually only play the "hardcore" day mission and that's about it. It would be nice to have an option to only download that mission and have another option to download all the alternative missions as well. I like having the variations, but it is definitely causing problems.

Rahn

* [staff Edit: - Posts split from Operation: Alianza thread and added the first paragraph above]

Edited January 4, 2010 by JohnTC02

[JohnTC02]

Thanks for the reply Rahn,

If this is the case we need to get the general opinion on which missions you want to see included.

I think that Bogie would agree having separate bundle files for each mission would be a fair amount of work as they would all need unique names to stop any conflicts which would mean having a different name for each mission, normally there are around 50 to 100 files to change to rename a mission.

I have been thinking about an idea that was in GRAW1, having different amounts of AI spawn depending on how many players are in the mission, I don't know if this is possible in GRAW2.

This will have a downside though, if say a mission was to start with just one player and more joined the match after the game starts then I don't think there would be a way of updating the amount of AI that spawns, the game would check how many players are on the map when the match first starts.

I think this might be possible but could lead to some cheating by having one player start the mission then the rest would join after the match had started.

*EDIT*

Thinking on this some more, it wouldn't be to difficult for me as I only include 4 missions in one bundle. If it helps I could do one bundle with the night/day Squad version and one for the night/day lone wolf version which would mean having two missions in each bundle. I'm not sure if Bogie would be up for this as his bundles have a lot more missions than mine.

[TAW_Zero]

what about make a bundle for the sp and lonewolf maps and make another for the rest that would help alot seeing thats its rare to see the sp and lone maps on a server

[rahnman]

I don't understand why it would be difficult to separate the missions. Why change the names of the missions at all. Couldn't you just take one version (squad version, day) and bundle it separately? I think this topic would be good for a separate thread though. This is something that we need to address. I think that having all the different versions of the same mission is a great idea since the variety of AI placement keeps the mission exciting and ads to its longevity. However, it would be good to have some consensus as to just how many versions are really necessary or how to configure multiple bundles.

Rahn

[bogiegraphics]

The reasoning behind putting all of the missions in one bundle is that you can share all of the common resources. If we separate out environment and\or lonewolf missions, you are essentially multiplying in size. The actual script for the missions are pretty nominal XML files as compared to the textures, load screens, object diesel files and mini maps.

This problem is here reguardless. On one hand, you can just manage your custom_levels directory... on the other, we can separate all of the missions into more logical bundles (which seems more of a headache for both developer & consumer) or reduce the amount of missions that go into a bundle altogether. For me, I just remove the bundles that we don't play.

[JohnTC02]

I don't understand why it would be difficult to separate the missions. Why change the names of the missions at all.

All missions need to have unique names, we have to create our missions with unique names for all the folders and some of the files if we didn't the the game would crash on start up.

If players wanted to include the squad version and a lone wolf version of the same mission in their map rotation this would then crash the game if we didn't change the file/folder names.

I can see many problems arise if we were to just "split" the missions into separate bundles without renaming them, people that do not have our knowledge would just download all the bundles and put them in their game, this would lead to the game crashing and even more PM's/posts to the mission makers saying that our missions have bugs leading to more work for us.

The Solution as I see it:

We can either do as Bogie suggests and that is to remove the bundles that you are not using which would fix this problem or the mission maker can split their missions into separate bundles and have unique names for all of them.

To me the second option amounts to the same as the first, you would still be installing the bundles you want to play the missions.

So, what are your thoughts here?

[TAW_Zero]

just remove the sp and lonewolf versions into a different bundle

and its a headache to remove the bundles u dont play when u join a server that has some u have to go out find the maps move them back in restart the game and then rejoin by that time the maps is goin

[rahnman]

Of course there is also the issue of managing a dedicated server. It's one thing to have to manage your custom levels folder(s) and move missions in and out of different folders, but if you are an admin of a server the problem becomes more acute. I need to check into just how much space we are allowed in our server files. I know that some of the more recent bundle files take 30+ minutes to upload to the server. Once we reach the ceiling on storage space I can see us having to manage the server files in the same way, only we will likely have to delete bundles rather than move them to another folder. This translates into a lot of time re-uploading bundle files. Once again, I'll have to check to see just how much space we are allowed.

Here is my opinion for what it's worth (not much, lol). In the past year we have gone from having maybe a dozen missions to play to ....... well...... a LOT more. Many of the newer missions take a squad over an hour to play. This means that on a typical practice night we might get through 2 missions. We play together twice a week. At that rate we could play for months w/o repeating a mission. Most of us are 35+ years old and don't really enjoy having to strain our eyes for the night or fog missions. We play the squad/day version. So for us there is only one version of any given mission that we would run on our server. I would really like to see there be a "server" version of any given mission that would just be the day version, with the rest of the variations included in a separate download.

I think this would help with the files on the PC as well. I can keep all the files that we run on the server in one folder and all the variations in another. Then when I want to create my own server and play some of the sp versions or other variations, I can just rename a few folders and have at it. This would work very well for me. I can see, however, that it might not work well at all for someone else. At any rate, there is my opinion.

Cheers,

Rahn

[JohnTC02]

I can see what you are saying here Rahn, finding a solution to suit all is going to be a problem though.

A while back Bogie and myself (and probably others) were getting requests for different environments and lone wolf versions of our missions. Now we are reaching the limits of what GRAW2 can accommodate these multi mission bundles are now causing us problems.

While Bogie has taken this idea to the max (I don't know how he finds the time) including multiple versions of one mission, I have stuck to the day and night versions of the squad and lone wolf mission.

Maybe the question is, do we need all the different versions of the same mission, do we return to the single mission with just having the day version and stop including the night, lone wolf and different day environments in our missions and perhaps release the occasional night version only mission.

Most of the feedback I have seen here is that people generally don't play the lone wolf version of our missions so is there any need for them.

Having said that as we are now making missions with 500+ AI in them, if people wanted to play these missions on their own it would be quite a challenge.

Maybe a solution is to have a compromise by making some missions with the high AI count to cater for the teams plus making others with around 200 AI that would suit the lone wolfers which would also be useful as a "quick match" for the teams.

So what do you think, it would be good to have some feedback from other mission makers, maybe Bogie could put some different/better ideas forward.

John

[oz-ares]

Hey guys, this is an interesting topic.

We noticed similar problems with "pollox" and some elder versions.

The solution was to move "coop_killzone" out of the "custom levels" folder.

Specially in this case iam a little bit angry. Bogie converted the map and 1-2 weeks later someone else put a similar map on bogies converted graw1 map. - Of course i think bogie gave his permission, but why did the "killzone" pass the beta testing if there are problems like this ?

I personally only play a mission "morning or day or night maps".

IMHO iam happy with an environment that the mission author provides me.

I think the missions are worked out with some thoughts, and if i.e. john wants me in the jungle at night, i will do my best to complete the mission!

I dont touch the SP missions, because co-op means play together. Play coop in SP ... thats just wierd.

Regards

Ares

Maybe helpful for "newbies":

Manage your downloaded maps and missions with the structure of the "Custom_Levels" folder, because the game does only load the xxx.bundle files that are storaged in that folder.

1: "Custom_Levels" (contains the missions that you want to play.)

2: "Custom_Levels_Offline" (contains all coop missions)

3: "Custom_Levels_TvT_Offline" (Multiplayer Team vs Team maps)

[JohnTC02]

Agree with Ares, this is a very interesting discussion.

I have been speaking to Bogie on this matter and he has told me what he intends to do here but it's not for me to say, from his point of view I totally agree with what he has told me.

As I only include four missions in my bundles I am prepared to include two bundle files compressed into one zip file for download. One will contain the usual four missions and the second will contain just the team version of the day mission.

Those of you that have dedicated servers can then re-compress the single mission and upload it to your server.

I would still need to rename the single mission just to avoid any conflicts in case some people do install both bundles even though there would be no need to do this as it would really be a server only version, I'm still thinking of a good name for the "server" version, it will probably have "ser" some where in the name.

So, all you server admins would this be of any help.

John

[bogiegraphics]

I have been speaking to Bogie on this matter and he has told me what he intends to do here ... I totally agree with what he has told me.

What I said to John was that this topic makes me depressed that I am going to OD on sleeping pills

Cheers,

Bogie

[JohnTC02]

Now Now Bogie, tell the truth.

The last thing you said to me was "I can't take anymore I need a new hobby" I asked him what he had in mind, and he said....

"alcoholism"

[oz-ares]

You guys are kidding. Bogie gives up the modding for graw2 ?!?!

[JohnTC02]

What you need to realise is that us mission/map makers are a highly strung highly stressed breed.

If you push us to far then something must give, and here you see the results.

RIP,

Bogie!!

Sorry for the posts!

[rahnman]

I'm so confused .

OK, so you are going to rename the "server" version and have it as separate download. But then you are going to include the same mission in a "4 pack" bundle (like you always do) with a different name. Won't this mean that we will now have the same version of a mission (xxxx_day_v2) in our custom levels folder twice (with 2 different names)?

Can you not split your 4 versions differently and have the "server" version as a bundle and the other 3 versions as another bundle? To have them in the same zipped folder is a good idea since everyone could then get all 4 versions in one download. Does this make sense............I need a drink!

Rahn

[JohnTC02]

Ummm, ah, right, so you spotted my deliberate mistake then, I just wanted to make sure you were reading my posts.

Yep, you are right Rahn, don't know what I was thinking here, it's pointless including the day version twice so if you want I will do as you say, have the two day/night wolf missions and the team night version in one bundle and the "server" day version in a separate bundle.

Hope that makes sense, now I'm getting confused!

[rahnman]

Whew,

I thought I was going to have to get off of the "pills" (lol).

I think that would work perfectly. I hope it's not too much work for you.

Rahn

[JohnTC02]

I think that would work perfectly. I hope it's not too much work for you.

I am here to please, but don't worry about the extra work, although us scripters are a highly stressed bunch we can take whatever you throw at us.

I will do this on my next mission release and see how it goes, I will need to add some information to the description so the general public will know why I have made this change.

John

[bogiegraphics]

I'm usually a pretty optimistic individual, but my stance on this is why change it and do extra work if you are just going to irk a different group of folks.

We get requests all of the time in the forums, PMs, chat features and Ventrillo\Teamspeak.

- Breakout environments

- Breakout Lonewolf, Normal, Massive

- Don't breakout either because it can cause confusion to the general public (difficult to manage)

- Have different versions for blue diamond friendlies and no blue diamond friendlies

- Use standard weapons, use expanded weapons

- Have different versions where the AI are in different locations (especially at the beginning and end); don't have too many mission versions.

- Don't have limited visibility maps (Fog, Night, Morning) as noone plays them; keep limited visibility maps, because this is all I play.

- Keep it realistic; more snipers, more mines, more patrols, more havocs, more tanks...

- Have more respawn points

.

.

.

.

These are just a few of the more common requests that I get whenever I release a map... Really, nearly every map I get 80% of the time - the environment, massive, lone wolf, blue diamonds and weapons request from parties that are very passionate about the way that they like to play GRAW2. While it is great to be that passonate about your game, I must take into consideration all of these requests and do my best to complete these while keeping the main integrity of the mission to make it playable. Even so, folks will continue to bring up their issues, sometimes in a very agressive fashion and\or will really be negative if they do not get their requests.

So just looking at a typical mission that I release that would have a Lone Wolf, Normal Difficulty and Massive Play with 3 Day, 1 Night, 1 Fog, 1 Morning environments and a set containing no blue diamonds and a set that contained blue diamonds and a set that contained standard weapons only and a set that contained expaned Siege weapons ... that is 72 missions that can be bundled in various ways; by server only, cutting out lone wolf (which I've seen Lone Wolf played on the servers), by environment, by diamonds, by weapons... ouch. Who decides? I'm sure between John, TripleX, RPG Hard, Anibale19, Tinker and all of the other mission\map scripters that each of us would bundle in a different way causing even more confusion. When I join a server, I don't want to be kicked because someone has integreated a normal difficulty mission with a massive mission.

So here is my solution: I am going to continue to do what I feel will accomodate the majority of the players out there and what I see is popular on the servers. This means:

- There will still be only 1 bundle for all missions. Too many ways to split up the way folks like their missions. And yes, custom maps (especially the GRAW1 conversions) can take up to 4+ hours to convert all of the pathing for all of the textures, props, etc (Every XML needs to be converted). So consider 2-4 bundles could take an additional 4-16 hours of time.

- Will still always have a lone wolf for individual teams and a massive play for those who play in larger squads

- There are now several mission scripters who keep the blue diamonds and standard weapons. I am the only scripter who currently uses the "No Blue Friendly Diamonds" as well as incorporates the Siege TvT Weapons Kits. So I will more than likely continue to use this gameplay.

- Will deem what environments will be included in the bundles. Not all maps are appropriate for all environment types like "Stategic Eradication" only worked with Night or Fog environments, "Relative Sanctuary" only worked will with dimmer environments to keep Radiator's unique ambiance. But typically, I will more than likely have 2-3 different day maps and a night map.

These lines of thinking can, and may, change over time if the general gaming population mindset changes. We may come up with other solutions in the future. Really, if you look at the first set of missions, I just released 1-2 missions the way I saw them and no more. So still keeping an open mind, I'm just not convinced of changing anything at this point will solve the diverse issues that individuals or teams request.

Regards,

Bogie

PS: You can probably tell I was never breast fed as a child

[Anthony]

Bogie

I would support this viewpoint. When I recently raised a question related to the number of missions held in "Custom_levels" it wasn't with the expectation that all of a sudden things were going to change. It was a query to see what the possibilities are. I would not expect to create additional work for the mission scripters who already do plenty and give up their time freely to bring us all many hours of fun and pleasure. For my own part I do not see it as a huge task to manage one or two folders and move a few files around periodically - surely that can't be asking too much of people.

As for the problem with dedicated servers it seems that this could be more difficult to resolve but only time will tell.

As to the numerous individual requests Bogie refers to everybody has their own favourites and ways of doing things and we'd all like certain things to be different in some way or other but that doesn't mean they can be or should be. Not every suggestion proposed can be realised particularly if it means a lot of extra time and work for someone else and at the end of the day may only be an inconvenience to a very limited number.

Bogie, please keep on keepin' on. See you on the battlefield.

Anthony

[JohnTC02]

Thanks for clarifying you position on this in "public" Bogie.

As I said to you before I agree with your decision (Not taking an OD that is), for want of a better word you are the biggest "offender" when it comes to the amount of missions in your bundles, please don't get me wrong (don't go reaching for those pills again!), I do admire the work you put into making missions and the amount you include in each bundle is amazing, I just don't know how you find the time.

As I only include four missions in my bundles I can't really see the benefit of me making a separate bundle with just the team version, I don't think this would have much impact in solving the problem.

Having said that I always try to please the gaming community, if you still think this will help I am more than willing to make the separate bundle for the servers.

It seems to be about a 50/50 split between making that single mission bundle and doing what Anthony and others have mentioned, having different folders for each game type and moving the files or renaming the folder depending on which missions you need.

I think this discussion can go on for quite sometime without any real solution being found, it's a interesting topic though.

Thanks for all the input,

John

[rahnman]

John,

I checked into how much memory we are given on our servers. It seems that the company that we rent from [clanwarz] has a 150 gig machine that hosts 5 different servers. That translates to about 30 gigs of memory for us to use. At this point, with all the TC02 and Bogie missions to date uploaded (plus many others), we have used a little more than 2 gigs. So it turns out that there is no need to worry about memory in the online server.

With that tidbit of information I can see no reason why you should have to break your bundles up. Just leave them like they are. We will just have to move bundle files into various different "custom level" folders. It seems we are stuck with this inconvenience, but I think it a small price to pay for the ongoing enjoyment of the game. Play on!!

Rahn