Need Co-op Maps For 2-6 Players

[banenwn]

I like alot of the downloadable maps most are very well done.My question is with so few people playing online how come all these co-op maps are made for 10+ players?I got a friend who i co-op with about every weekend but we get stuck doing the sp campaign maps because most if not all of the co-op maps are made for mass number of players.

I appreciate the efforts of all the map makers but are there not any maps out there for less then 6 people?I personally feel that if we had some decent co-op maps for a smaller number of people it would seriously draw more people to the game.Alot of us like playing with a few friends and hosting our own game these maps simply doesnt allow this unless we want to burn 4 hours trying to finish a map and dying 100 times in the process which doesnt equal fun for some of us.thanks

[davros]

I like alot of the downloadable maps most are very well done.My question is with so few people playing online how come all these co-op maps are made for 10+ players?I got a friend who i co-op with about every weekend but we get stuck doing the sp campaign maps because most if not all of the co-op maps are made for mass number of players.

I appreciate the efforts of all the map makers but are there not any maps out there for less then 6 people?I personally feel that if we had some decent co-op maps for a smaller number of people it would seriously draw more people to the game.Alot of us like playing with a few friends and hosting our own game these maps simply doesnt allow this unless we want to burn 4 hours trying to finish a map and dying 100 times in the process which doesnt equal fun for some of us.thanks

G'day banenwn,

Appreciate the feedack on what you do not like. Would you be able to expand a bit more on what characteristics make up a 2-6 player map?

I too play with 2-6 people and enjoy all the coop maps available...even if they take different times to complete....so am not sure what you want to see.

You mention not taking too long and not dying too many times...Can you help me out here and explain (in very simple terms for me what would you like to see in these maps?

Cheers,

Dav

Edited August 26, 2008 by davros

[TAW_Zero]

what coop maps u playing?? me and my friend play all the coop maps and dont have any problems making it thru with hardly no deaths (except base13 , asylum, and hangar18) maybe u need to practice more most maps are pretty easy to complete with 2 ppl w/no deaths just go slo and crouch and use a silenced weapon u should have no problems

btw davros is making a killer map everyone needs to try when done

[banenwn]

Comon lets be realistic here these maps are not made for 2 players.Has nothing to do with practice ive been playing these games for a long time.Im talking maps that are on par with sp campaign maps.Most of these co-op maps the enemy ai in most of these maps dont miss at all.Ive played about half the downloadable content here and in only one map did stealth work.the rest were straighup shooting gallerys.Hows it realistic to have 40 enemys bunched together.Im just saying to make a map suitable for 2 players it doesnt have to neccesarily be smaller but atleast spread the enemys out alittle more.Im not sure if theres a way to set the ai hit percentage but hitting for 100% is just not realistic.It also seems using smoke to screen yourself doesnt work well either for the most part.

Im not downing anyone like i said i do like the maps and i appreciate the time they put into there work for the community.Playing maps like this though with hundreds of enemies just makes this yet another shooter on the market with tons of other shooters that do the same thing.If i wanted COD 4 I would go play that but i expect more from graw 1 and 2 where stealth was implemented but not used and its a shame

[davros]

Comon lets be realistic here these maps are not made for 2 players.Has nothing to do with practice ive been playing these games for a long time.Im talking maps that are on par with sp campaign maps.Most of these co-op maps the enemy ai in most of these maps dont miss at all.Ive played about half the downloadable content here and in only one map did stealth work.the rest were straighup shooting gallerys.Hows it realistic to have 40 enemys bunched together.Im just saying to make a map suitable for 2 players it doesnt have to neccesarily be smaller but atleast spread the enemys out alittle more.Im not sure if theres a way to set the ai hit percentage but hitting for 100% is just not realistic.It also seems using smoke to screen yourself doesnt work well either for the most part.

Im not downing anyone like i said i do like the maps and i appreciate the time they put into there work for the community.Playing maps like this though with hundreds of enemies just makes this yet another shooter on the market with tons of other shooters that do the same thing.If i wanted COD 4 I would go play that but i expect more from graw 1 and 2 where stealth was implemented but not used and its a shame

Ok, so what I am hearing is that you'd like...

1) less enemies/spread out more

2) more open maps

3) options to complete mission with minimal kills/stealth

4) less "god like" aim for the ai

5) smoke to act as more of a shield

Is that right?

There are certainly things that can be done to meet items 1-4 in making a map. Item 5 may be a bit tricky as I recall others have also raised issues with the ai's ability to "see through" smoke.

Let us know more of what you want as the only way I'll learn what people want through people posting what they'd like to see. It really is not easy making a mission that's more than a run and gun possibly the hardest part is planning out what people will enjoy playing - so thanks for the insights and keep posting.

Dav.

Edited August 27, 2008 by davros

[banenwn]

Comon lets be realistic here these maps are not made for 2 players.Has nothing to do with practice ive been playing these games for a long time.Im talking maps that are on par with sp campaign maps.Most of these co-op maps the enemy ai in most of these maps dont miss at all.Ive played about half the downloadable content here and in only one map did stealth work.the rest were straighup shooting gallerys.Hows it realistic to have 40 enemys bunched together.Im just saying to make a map suitable for 2 players it doesnt have to neccesarily be smaller but atleast spread the enemys out alittle more.Im not sure if theres a way to set the ai hit percentage but hitting for 100% is just not realistic.It also seems using smoke to screen yourself doesnt work well either for the most part.

Im not downing anyone like i said i do like the maps and i appreciate the time they put into there work for the community.Playing maps like this though with hundreds of enemies just makes this yet another shooter on the market with tons of other shooters that do the same thing.If i wanted COD 4 I would go play that but i expect more from graw 1 and 2 where stealth was implemented but not used and its a shame

Ok, so what I am hearing is that you'd like...

1) less enemies/spread out more

2) more open maps

3) options to complete mission with minimal kills/stealth

4) less "god like" aim for the ai

5) smoke to act as more of a shield

Is that right?

There are certainly things that can be done to meet items 1-4 in making a map. Item 5 may be a bit tricky as I recall others have also raised issues with the ai's ability to "see through" smoke.

Let us know more of what you want as the only way I'll learn what people want through people posting what they'd like to see. It really is not easy making a mission that's more than a run and gun possibly the hardest part is planning out what people will enjoy playing - so thanks for the insights and keep posting.

Dav.

Dav i appreciate your responses.I think cutting down enemies and instead concentrating on goood enemy placement is key.I did some map modding for deltaforce Xtreme for a while and that game was also plagued by mapmakers making games for 16+ people.throwing 200 enemies in one small area is easy i want to see someone take the time and really put some thought into there maps.IMO most of these nice maps are being wasted by being an endless shooting gallery.Deltaforce xtreme could get away with this because that game had really dumb enemy ai and just to make it challenging you had to throw 200 or more enemy on the maps.

Graw 2 is a very challenging game and i think 12-16 enemy's per player is plenty with the challenge of the game.If i were to make a map for 2 players i probably wouldnt put more then 32 enemies on a map depending on the size of the map obviously.This game makes you move in such a way were killing 30 enemies is like killing 100 in any other game its not meant to be a straight up shooter.I personally feel that the maps that are available now for download is a contributing factor as to why most wont play this game.We dont want 2-4 players having to deal with 800 enemie ai with 100% hit rate.we want to finish these maps and feel like we have a chance.I like finishing what i start and simply put these maps dont allow you to do that

Edited August 28, 2008 by banenwn

[davros]

Dav i appreciate your responses.I think cutting down enemies and instead concentrating on goood enemy placement is key.I did some map modding for deltaforce Xtreme for a while and that game was also plagued by mapmakers making games for 16+ people.throwing 200 enemies in one small area is easy i want to see someone take the time and really put some thought into there maps.IMO most of these nice maps are being wasted by being an endless shooting gallery.Deltaforce xtreme could get away with this because that game had really dumb enemy ai and just to make it challenging you had to throw 200 or more enemy on the maps.

Graw 2 is a very challenging game and i think 12-16 enemy's per player is plenty with the challenge of the game.If i were to make a map for 2 players i probably wouldnt put more then 32 enemies on a map depending on the size of the map obviously.This game makes you move in such a way were killing 30 enemies is like killing 100 in any other game its not meant to be a straight up shooter.I personally feel that the maps that are available now for download is a contributing factor as to why most wont play this game.We dont want 2-4 players having to deal with 800 enemie ai with 100% hit rate.we want to finish these maps and feel like we have a chance.I like finishing what i start and simply put these maps dont allow you to do that

Hmmm...food for thought indeed.

I must admit I too have been seduced into putting more enemies on the map than I would otherwise have done in the past.....I'll take a good hard look at this for my next map. It is a challenge I agree.

The map I am writing at the moment does have more bad guys than that...but there is an option for stealth..and penalties for not being stealthy so you may or may not feel it too plays to the "more enemies is better"camp - will definitely try to do something different in the next map...hmmm....I'll mull this over as it's a very good point you raise.

One thing I do notice is that many of the maps that are being made for GRAW2 are aimed at player vs. player and so are confined (and I am not a map maker in any way - and am in awe of what they do). But there are a few there that are open and large and would suit an [GR] coop with low volume of enemies.

Thanks again for the input and perhaps you might like to have a go at making some missions for GRAW? Be happy to you help out if I can.

Dav.

[Satoh]

How about "scalable enemy" missions? By that I mean if there are 4 human players, then there will be xx enemy AI spawned when the players reach location A. If there are 6 humans, then reaching location A would spawn xx + 4, or something similar.

Some of the guys doing custom missions for GRAW-1 (The Gamer Planet crew being foremost in my mind) have figured out the coding for making "scalable enemy" co-op missions possible. I don't know if similar coding techniques will work in GRAW-2 though. If possible, then a whole new method of playing co-op missions comes into play, depending on how many human players there are. IMO that is one very neat trick.

[davros]

How about "scalable enemy" missions? By that I mean if there are 4 human players, then there will be xx enemy AI spawned when the players reach location A. If there are 6 humans, then reaching location A would spawn xx + 4, or something similar.

Some of the guys doing custom missions for GRAW-1 (The Gamer Planet crew being foremost in my mind) have figured out the coding for making "scalable enemy" co-op missions possible. I don't know if similar coding techniques will work in GRAW-2 though. If possible, then a whole new method of playing co-op missions comes into play, depending on how many human players there are. IMO that is one very neat trick.

Great idea..."scalable enemy". It is a neat trick.

I must say I did try and work that out for myself a while back...but it gave up. Sad, but true!

I'll go trawl the GR:AW1 forums and see what I can see...

If someone could save me the hassle and post how it's done that would be much appreciated...poor brain is struggling to keep up with all the parallel threads!

Thankyou very much for the ideas Satoh. Please keep the coming.

Dav.

[Tinker]

Just a note:

In the GRAW1 forums, it seems that they don`t like the mission forums to much. You`ll also need to go through the map making forum for some scripting tips and advice.

[davros]

Just a note:

In the GRAW1 forums, it seems that they don`t like the mission forums to much. You`ll also need to go through the map making forum for some scripting tips and advice.

Thanks Tinker for checking in - appreciate the tip(s).

Have found a map that has "adaptive AI". Will need to unbundle it and check the code and see it it can be done in GRAW2...very exciting

Lost a night of scripting tonight...too many beers and red wines...will have another hack at it tomorrow after a good night's sleep.

Getting closer now.

Dav.

Edited August 29, 2008 by davros

[Satoh]

If someone could save me the hassle and post how it's done that would be much appreciated...poor brain is struggling to keep up with all the parallel threads!

Salute!

Check out this post in particular from the Gamer Planet forums. It concerns setting randomized AI spawn percentages (GRAW-1 info, not GRAW-2, but could be a stepping stone to GRAW-2 coding insights). The entire thread the linked post is within is a mission creation tutorial for GRAW-1. It is very detailed (and lengthy) and extremely informative.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Satoh