Caine Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 (edited) OK, I've searched and searched, and while I can find references to them, I can't find definitions of them. What is the manpower of a chalk and a stick??? I typically find them in reference to air mobile troops - either Helo inserted or paratroopers. For example: CHALK CMDR (DOD NATO) THE CMDR OF ALL TRPS EMBARKED UNDER 1 CHALK NUMBER SEE ALSO CHALK NUMBER; CHALK TRPS CHALK NUMBER (DOD NATO) THE NUMBER GIVEN TO A COMPLETE LOAD & TO THE TRANSPORTING CARRIER SEE ALSO CHALK CMDR; CHALK TRPS CHALK TRPS (DOD NATO) A LOAD OF TRPS DEFINED BY A PARTICULAR CHALK NUMBER SEE ALSO CHALK CMDR; CHALK NUMBER Source Caine Edited June 4, 2004 by Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The manpower of a chalk will differ depending on the size of the aircraft they are traveling in and the size of any additional load of that aircraft. A chalk for a C130 will be smaller than a chalk for a C141 or C5. See this thread for more discussion and definition of Chalks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 According to Military Glossary words A stick is pants [VN] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 The closest to "Stick" I got was; STICK (AIR TRANSPORT A NUMBER OF PARATRPERS WHO JUMP FROM ONE APERTURE OR DOOR OF AN AIRCRAFT DURING 1 RUN OVER A DROP ZONE So, these designators have no actual number associated? Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 According to Military Glossary words A stick is pants [VN] I saw that too - look further down the list to get the other 3 definitions... Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The closest to "Stick" I got was; STICK (AIR TRANSPORT A NUMBER OF PARATRPERS WHO JUMP FROM ONE APERTURE OR DOOR OF AN AIRCRAFT DURING 1 RUN OVER A DROP ZONE So, these designators have no actual number associated? No, no number designation as it will vary depending on aircraft size. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 According to Military Glossary words A stick is pants [VN] I saw that too - look further down the list to get the other 3 definitions... Caine I like my definition better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 (edited) The closest to "Stick" I got was; STICK (AIR TRANSPORT A NUMBER OF PARATRPERS WHO JUMP FROM ONE APERTURE OR DOOR OF AN AIRCRAFT DURING 1 RUN OVER A DROP ZONE So, these designators have no actual number associated? No, no number designation as it will vary depending on aircraft size. Hope that helps. Not really, as that is such an open ended figure and presents a mind boggling number of conflicts when talking about standard unit structure and C-o-C (Unit size, etc). I started this due to the "Squad Size" debate thread(s). I recall reading a book (By S.M. Stirling) where the unit term "Stick" was applied. As I recall, it was a 3-4 man team. Then, the movie "Blackhawk Down" used the "Chalk" designators. Both of which bypassed the standard Squad size doctrine (2 4-man fire teams + Squad leader). It was my thought that perhaps, with the Ghosts being possibly inserted by Helo or parachuting in, that RSE was using this as their model and simply calling it a "Squad". Follow me? Caine Edited June 4, 2004 by Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I follow you and it's good to know that people are trying to research what happens in the real military. Chalks and sticks are very open-ended. When I traveled on a C130 our chalk size was 50 people and when I traveled on a C5 our chalk size was much larger (IIRC, over 100). I've never done any jumping so I'm not familiar with the use of the term Sticks. However, a stick size for those jumping out of a helicopter will be much smaller than the stick size of those jumping out of a C130. To get the answer you are looking for in regards to squad size, I would refer to the posts where Hatchetforce (current SF member) discusses this. However, I would think the size of a squad will differ depending on the mission and which unit is involved. *where's Hatchetforce when you need him.* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebb Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Thats pretty much it Z', its just a designation for a group, there is no specific fixed number it all depends on the role they are carrying out.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 So, it is theoretically possible that Red Storm is using the term "Squad" in place of "Stick" or "Chalk" - which might be technically more accurate - due to the recognizability of that term over the others? Personally, I don't care if they call it a "Lettuce Patch"...as long as the game is good, they can designate the units in any terms they choose Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I disagree, Caine. A squad refers to a group of soldiers. A chalk refers to transporting of soldiers and/or equipment. A stick specifically refers to a group of soldiers who are parachuting out of an aircraft. None have specific number designations. In theory a chalk/stick could be a squad of soldiers, but a squad of soldiers is not necessarily a chalk/stick. Clear as mud, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobaka Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 So why would anyone want to jump out of a helicopter with a stick of chalk? So chalks ride and sticks jump? Any idea how they came up with those names? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I remember seeing something about using chalk to number pallets and the term stuck from there. *time to do some more searching....* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 I disagree, Caine. A squad refers to a group of soldiers. A chalk refers to transporting of soldiers and/or equipment. A stick specifically refers to a group of soldiers who are parachuting out of an aircraft. None have specific number designations. In theory a chalk/stick could be a squad of soldiers, but a squad of soldiers is not necessarily a chalk/stick. Clear as mud, right? Ok, I agree with this...almost completely. Leaving this in R/W terms, I agree absolutely. Applying the GR2 unit sizes "controversy" to it, however, removes the "absolute" element from it, doesn't it? And the more I type and think on this, the more confused I become.... We can agree that a Fire Team is 4 men. A Squad is 9 men. Right so far? At least, that's what I remember from my USMCR days (Yes, damn you, I was in the Reserves!! No glory, no coolness, just the Reserves ). In my Navy days, however, we had little use for these types of definitions (4 years active there...we'll call it "Poor Decision Making" skills in my youth). So, if the Ghosts are deployed from a boat/helo in a group of 4, 6, 8, 10, etc that would be a Chalk, right? It might be a Squad deplying, but isn't neccesarily. On that we agree still, right? So, along comes RSE and their 4-man Ghost teams. If they parachute in, they're a Stick. If they're dropped off, they're a chalk. If they simply walk in...well...I suppose they're tourists then. However, the good folks at RSE recognize quickly that there aren't many people out there who will instantly appreciate the finer points of sticks, chalks, squads, fire teams, and a good Key Lime pie. What to do? Simple, go with what is commonly recognizable...call it a Squad. The whole "Stick/Chalk" had been a nagging question for some time...it seems the answer to the "How many men in a _____" question is, "It depends". Yep, Z, clear as mud. As for GR2, beats me. And if you followed this, hats off to ya. I lost myself about 3 paragraghs ago. Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebb Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Just to make things a bit more confusing for you Caine, when i was serving in NI we called them "bricks"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 Just to make things a bit more confusing for you Caine, when i was serving in NI we called them "bricks"..... Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!! What were the criteria for "Bricks"? Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 What were the criteria for "Bricks"? That it contains clay and pressed stone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supasniper Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 nearly; squaddies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteKnight77 Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 What were the criteria for "Bricks"? That it contains clay and pressed stone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARDelta Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 "Brick" makes more sense than "stick" to me. After all, what happens when you jump out of an aircraft? You fall like a brick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetforce Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Chalks and sticks obviously have a great many designations. I will tell you what it means in our arena. Bear in mind this may not hold true for a Mech unit, just for SF, Ranger, and Airborne units. A stick is a group of personnel of indeterminate size that will exit an aircraft on a parachute jump on a single 'Pass'. A pass is one flight across a drop zone or drop area. The size of the stick is based upon the type of aircraft or in many instances the DZ (Drop Zone). Whereas you may have a 12 man stick on a large DZ like Sicily at Ft Bragg, St Mere Eglise or Luzon at Bragg are both smaller and the aircraft will only be over the area of the DZ where jumpers can exit and still land on the DZ and not the trees for a shorter period of time. Also factored into stick size are: Type of DZ (water, earth, trees, etc), Direction of Aircraft travel (tied to DZ dimensions), Speed of Aircraft, Wind Speed on the Ground, Type of Parachute, Equipment Carried by Jumpers. Example: A C130 might have a 10 man stick on Sicily and a 6 man stick on Luzon. A MH47 might have a 12 man stick on Sicily and a 8 man stick on Luzon. Because the 47 flies slower more people can exit in the same distance. A Chalk is a term interchangeable with it's associated term, 'Lift'. A chalk or lift composes all of the sticks that will board the aircraft at the same time and jump before the aircraft has to land to pick up more personnel. A Chalk can also be used in reference to personnel or equipment that are lined up to be transported to another location by aircraft or vehicle. There are many other uses for the word chalk in the military and most involve transportion. The number is determined by associated factors. It usually doesn't refer to that fancy white stick anymore as we have a new term - Dry Erase Marker! Or a more disgusting word - Powerpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 5, 2004 Author Share Posted June 5, 2004 @ Hatchetforce Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity, how is Squad/Fireteam integrity maintained when broken into Chalks/Sticks? I guess I'm asking if units revert to "Squads/Fireteams" once deployed, or if the "Chalk/Stick" designator sticks throughout the op? Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetforce Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 For us we have the Team then the split Team and adjust our sticks after that fashion, either 12 or 6 men. Often though it is just tailored to whatever the mission needs. The designation of chalks and sticks and a control measure only for organizing an op. We try to set up the sticks and chalks along mission lines to maintain Team integrity if at all possible. After the infil we normally revert back to normal Team structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted June 6, 2004 Author Share Posted June 6, 2004 So, the terms are used to maintain unit identity until such time as it is feasible to reform the original unit. Makes sense. I appreciate the info. Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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