GRAW 2 versus Land Warrior

[kretzj]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...ws/4215749.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...aw/4215715.html

Essentially it says the Land Warrior hardware is ready to go and apparently the soldiers are not liking it (second link)... it compares the new tech to GRAW2 specifically, showing how "low tech" real life is.

Since the Land Warrior hardware took the DoD 15 years to research, should we really think that the next 15 years will bring such dramatic advances? I'm starting to think GRAW and GRAW2 will end up being Sci-Fi, not simulation...

Thoughts?

[cajun47]

and i want to know where is the dragon skin body armor in the game? defeats 40+ rounds of 7.62x39mm(ak47).

[krise madsen]

I must say I'm rather amazed that they made the link between Land Warrior and GRAW. The game has about as much to do with real life hi-tech soldier gear as Rambo has to do with for-real Green Berets.

The second article is quite interesting, though. They seem to have reached the conclusion (somewhat late, I should think) that maybe every grunt doesn't need all the gear the company commander does, and hauling all that "useless" gear around certainly doesn't help. Besides, it doesn't seem to be working really well, yet.

Actual combat testing will be the ultimate test, of course. But simply gaining real-life experience isn't enough. You have to draw the right conclusions from it, something that isn't given in advance.

Then there is the fact that not every military operation is the same. What doesn't work or is useless in an urban warfare/counter insurgency situation like Iraq, may be just the ticket in a peacekeeping operation like, say, in Bosnia.

Will we eventually see capabilities like those of the Land Warrior given to every soldier? Some day, yes, IMO. But not anytime soon.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[zwitherow]

the land warrior system would be more advanced in just a few years if it had begun development now instead of 15 years ago. mobile computing was in such a fetal state back then that it really didn't make sense to even attempt a system like that. the system has been reinvented multiple times during its development.

the technology is already there today to create a MUCH more efficient system. take for example the cpu they are using. 400 mhz, the size of a paperback book. wow that's amazing. my blackberry has a 310 mhz processor and weighs a whopping 3.16 oz. probably more like 2 oz if you took the screen and the battery off.

there's another thing, the battery. that's one of the problems with the system as well. it runs on a 12 hour battery that seems to be about the size of my chem 2 textbook. i don't keep up with battery tech but i'd bet my life savings that a vast improvement would be possible.

but it doesn't really matter because the average infantryman has no need for any of this gear.

EDIT: and now that i'm thinkin about it lol...

apple could make a standalone unit with an iPhone-esque 5 inch touch screen and integrated gps. that would be perfect for the blue-force tracking system. it could be mounted easily on the inside of your left wrist. add a small stylus tip to the index finger on your glove for easy touch screen manipulation. i like that idea a hell of a lot more than a monacle that restricts my vision and a clunky user input device on my chest (not to mention the awkward tangle of wires).

now add a laser range finder (bluetooth 2.0, of course) to the front rails on your m4 and you're all set (with its own self contained battery, you would rarely need to mark targets).

all you're missing now is the camera and the thermal scope. a bluetooth camera could probably be developed, again with its own battery cause it would rarely be used. and as for the scope, do you really want to lug around something the size (and weight, probably more) of a 2 liter coke on your m4? i know i don't.

and to tie the squad together, one member in the squad has the reciever for whatever wireless network the military uses and a wireless router, so to speak.

man i should work for the DOD

Edited April 19, 2007 by zwitherow

[kretzj]

the land warrior system would be more advanced in just a few years if it had begun development now instead of 15 years ago. mobile computing was in such a fetal state back then that it really didn't make sense to even attempt a system like that. the system has been reinvented multiple times during its development.

the technology is already there today to create a MUCH more efficient system. take for example the cpu they are using. 400 mhz, the size of a paperback book. wow that's amazing. my blackberry has a 310 mhz processor and weighs a whopping 3.16 oz. probably more like 2 oz if you took the screen and the battery off.

there's another thing, the battery. that's one of the problems with the system as well. it runs on a 12 hour battery that seems to be about the size of my chem 2 textbook. i don't keep up with battery tech but i'd bet my life savings that a vast improvement would be possible.

but it doesn't really matter because the average infantryman has no need for any of this gear.

EDIT: and now that i'm thinkin about it lol...

apple could make a standalone unit with an iPhone-esque 5 inch touch screen and integrated gps. that would be perfect for the blue-force tracking system. it could be mounted easily on the inside of your left wrist. add a small stylus tip to the index finger on your glove for easy touch screen manipulation. i like that idea a hell of a lot more than a monacle that restricts my vision and a clunky user input device on my chest (not to mention the awkward tangle of wires).

now add a laser range finder (bluetooth 2.0, of course) to the front rails on your m4 and you're all set (with its own self contained battery, you would rarely need to mark targets).

all you're missing now is the camera and the thermal scope. a bluetooth camera could probably be developed, again with its own battery cause it would rarely be used. and as for the scope, do you really want to lug around something the size (and weight, probably more) of a 2 liter coke on your m4? i know i don't.

and to tie the squad together, one member in the squad has the reciever for whatever wireless network the military uses and a wireless router, so to speak.

man i should work for the DOD

Is this the same Bluetooth that seems to have problems pairing between my Treo and my Plantronics headset?

Is that the same consumer GPS system that tells me consistently to drive off an unfinished bridge when I'm in New Orleans?

Yeah... sorry but having Bluetooth or TomTom be part of my target acquisition and sight system seems... um... a bit scary.

All of the Land Warrior hardware had to be developed to "field strength" standards. Consumer electronics couldn't withstand a few hours' worth of beating on a real deployment.

There's still a reason why the space shuttle flies with processors designed in the early 1980's (after their Mark 2 refit since 2000).... there are few processors available that are 100% bulletproof AND are shielded against radiation.

-jk

Callsign 3Point

I must say I'm rather amazed that they made the link between Land Warrior and GRAW. The game has about as much to do with real life hi-tech soldier gear as Rambo has to do with for-real Green Berets.

The second article is quite interesting, though. They seem to have reached the conclusion (somewhat late, I should think) that maybe every grunt doesn't need all the gear the company commander does, and hauling all that "useless" gear around certainly doesn't help. Besides, it doesn't seem to be working really well, yet.

Actual combat testing will be the ultimate test, of course. But simply gaining real-life experience isn't enough. You have to draw the right conclusions from it, something that isn't given in advance.

Then there is the fact that not every military operation is the same. What doesn't work or is useless in an urban warfare/counter insurgency situation like Iraq, may be just the ticket in a peacekeeping operation like, say, in Bosnia.

Will we eventually see capabilities like those of the Land Warrior given to every soldier? Some day, yes, IMO. But not anytime soon.

Respectfully

krise madsen

Agreed, krise.

I can just see a full deployment of Land Warrior-equipped men... first thing they do when they touch down is start stripping off the crap and replacing the CPU carry pouch with a few more loaded magazines.

"Sorry Sarg... I think my video satellite uplink is broken.... what did you say again?" ... as he covers the mike and says to his buddies..... "Four of a kind fellas.... the lady likes me tonight..."

[krise madsen]

Yeah, what Kretzj said...

Respectfully

krise madsen

[zwitherow]

@Kretzj:

1. bluetooth is a reliable technology, regardless of your aparant inability to pair your headset with your handset.

2. the flaws in your gps system are due to programming errors. troops on the ground don't need turn by turn directions, they need to have their locations plotted on a map.

3. where did i say anthing about consumer electronics?

4. space shuttle? who cares about space shuttles. nasa uses simple flight computers because they're less likely to crash and the calculations they have to perform are just that, SIMPLE. not because a faster processor that can withstand rough conditions and radiation can't be created. get your head out of your ass. that'd be like chevy putting a alienware desktop with a geforce 8800gtx in my corvette, it's simply more than is needed.

edit: i guess i did mention consumer electronics when i said apple, but only because of their promising touch screen technology, not to imply that the final product would not be milspec.

Edited April 19, 2007 by zwitherow

[philkilla]

This is why I enjoy [GR]. Right when you start the game it flashes a big ass 2008.

BTW, anyone see how gamespot has this game classified? As a MODERN-TACTICAL SHOOTER...lol

[IamJAFO]

That land warrior system isn't going to work. too much stuff. plus the soldiers field of view is hampered with the cross-com like video screen. plus the technology isn't good enough or small enough to really work.

I think the drive to make it is awesome but I just don't see it working. I'd have to agree with the soldiers. plus what about lefthanded shooters? the screen would have to be moved to the soldiers right side.

-IamJAFO

Edited April 19, 2007 by IamJAFO

[Hacksaww]

The landwarrior is an ambitious concept, but I don't see the need to network every soldeir to the rest of the force. I can see having each squad leader having this system equipped, but not every soldier, it is just too much crap that gets in the way for the ordinary rifleman.

However, I found this line to be the most disturbing from the first article:

"Videogames, even those with "Tom Clancy" in the title, aren't known for their realism..."

The article goes on to say how [GR] was realistic, but that line hit a nerve in me.

[Rocky]

Nice find kretzj! Interesting article.

[Fletch]

@Kretzj:

1. bluetooth is a reliable technology, regardless of your aparant inability to pair your headset with your handset.

My bluetooth system for my cell phone is always shutting off. Sometimes its just a simple press the on button to start it up again, but alot of times I have to turn the phone off and on again to reset the bluetooth module. The problem seems to be when ever I am in an elevator or other shielded (concrete) location is when this happens. To me this is strange, I can understand loosing cell phone reception due to location but as the headset and cell phone are on my ear and belt and their signal should be fine between them no matter my location.

[Cangaroo.TNT]

The only way to settle this is with empirical evidence obtained through experimentation. Do this:

1. Take your handset and headset and go to Iraq.

2. Get shot at 1-2 hours a day, every day, for 2 weeks (don't forget to shoot back).

3. Come back and report your results.

Thanks!

Edited April 19, 2007 by Cangaroo[TNT]

[zwitherow]

@Kretzj:

1. bluetooth is a reliable technology, regardless of your aparant inability to pair your headset with your handset.

My bluetooth system for my cell phone is always shutting off. Sometimes its just a simple press the on button to start it up again, but alot of times I have to turn the phone off and on again to reset the bluetooth module. The problem seems to be when ever I am in an elevator or other shielded (concrete) location is when this happens. To me this is strange, I can understand loosing cell phone reception due to location but as the headset and cell phone are on my ear and belt and their signal should be fine between them no matter my location.

my cordless phone dies after a few minutes of use, am i to assume the phone lines are failing? sounds like a problem with your cell phone or headset, not bluetooth technology.

' date='Apr 19 2007, 02:35 PM' post='461407']

The only way to settle this is with empirical evidence obtained through experimentation. Do this:

1. Take your handset and headset and go to Iraq.

2. Get shot at 1-2 hours a day, every day, for 2 weeks (don't forget to shoot back).

3. Come back and report your results.

Thanks!

i said milspec. obviously equipment that is not designed as duty gear is going to fail.

[Cangaroo.TNT]

i said milspec. obviously equipment that is not designed as duty gear is going to fail.

Yeah. It was a joke. Heh....

[IamJAFO]

this is too expensive to outfit ALL soldiers with this technology. but can it be manufactured smal enough to not inhibit the soldiers movement? now? no- not at this time.

this leads me to think that GRAW isn't about realistic combat, but based on what the military wants to have happen. But I don't think our government or military is going to be willing to give every soldier this. hey look at the military not wanting to give every soldier body armor

-IamJAFO

[kretzj]

' date='Apr 19 2007, 12:35 PM' post='461407']

The only way to settle this is with empirical evidence obtained through experimentation. Do this:

1. Take your handset and headset and go to Iraq.

2. Get shot at 1-2 hours a day, every day, for 2 weeks (don't forget to shoot back).

3. Come back and report your results.

Thanks!

A bit OT but still funny...

I friend of mine just came back from 18 months in Baghdad... he said the hottest thing was for our boys to secure a "Hadji-Phone"... plain old consumer cell phones from local Iraqi cell providers. Any US phone is questionable over there but the Hadji-Phones worked fine. The commanders know about it and everyone was warned that there should be ZERO confidential info shared via the HadjiPhones since they figured the Iraqi cell services might be tapped. My friend used it just for SMS back to his wife and kids here in Mesa, Arizona.

Welcome to the new battlefield... embedded journalists and the field grunts really ARE wired... just not into the C&C structure, but rather back home to the family.

-jk

Callsign 3Point

[Cangaroo.TNT]

Don't forget, the guys in GRAW are SF, not grunts. Otherwise, you're probably correct (until the tech becomes much lighter and significantly less expensive).

[Vth_F_Smith]

May I drop a small hint?

The technology used in GRAW doesn't represent the Landwarrior system, but the first part of the "Integrated Warfighter System" (Future Combat System) so the comparision between GRAW and the real thing is not really applicable (especially if you use the 360 version of the game as a base for a comparision).

BTW: GRAW is not supposed to be a simulator - it's a Tom Clancy game with realism to some extent and a lot of creative "what-if's" by highly talented game developers. The real military doesn't care if a "HUD" is good looking, as long as it's effective but you can easily scare away a lot of gamers if something isn't good looking in a game.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Vth_F_Smith

[kretzj]

MThe real military doesn't care if a "HUD" is good looking, as long as it's effective but you can easily scare away a lot of gamers if something isn't good looking in a game.

Apparently not. Some folks felt GRAW was pretty ugly but most are still here. (dives for cover to avoid the blue-on-blue flamewar about to start...)

-jk

Callsign 3Point

[krise madsen]

May I drop a small hint?

The technology used in GRAW doesn't represent the Landwarrior system, but the first part of the "Integrated Warfighter System" (Future Combat System) so the comparision between GRAW and the real thing is not really applicable (especially if you use the 360 version of the game as a base for a comparision).

BTW: GRAW is not supposed to be a simulator - it's a Tom Clancy game with realism to some extent and a lot of creative "what-if's" by highly talented game developers. The real military doesn't care if a "HUD" is good looking, as long as it's effective but you can easily scare away a lot of gamers if something isn't good looking in a game.

Yeah, I really hope we can put this one to bed once and for all:

Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter series is not an accurate and realistic portrayal of future warfare technology. Sure, it has some elements of future technology, but accurate and realistic? No. Despite what you might have heard or read in various interviews and press releases. And it was never intended to be (at least, I don't think so - otherwise someone has screwed up big time )

Think of it along the same lines as Battlefield 2. Sure, it has Blackhawk helicopters, Abrams tanks and M16 rifles, but it's hardly an accurate simulation of modern warfare is it?

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Dai-San]

Think of it along the same lines as Battlefield 2. Sure, it has Blackhawk helicopters, Abrams tanks and M16 rifles, but it's hardly an accurate simulation of modern warfare is it?

Respectfully

krise madsen

Next you'll be telling me there is no Santa or Tooth fairy !!

[krise madsen]

Think of it along the same lines as Battlefield 2. Sure, it has Blackhawk helicopters, Abrams tanks and M16 rifles, but it's hardly an accurate simulation of modern warfare is it?

Respectfully

krise madsen

Next you'll be telling me there is no Santa or Tooth fairy !!

I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you afterwards

Respectfully

krise madsen

[CR6]

Great find Kretzj. Thanks!

[kretzj]

Great find Kretzj. Thanks!

This is what happens when I have WAY too much idle time at work.

Or I surf www.BluesNews.com... I think I found the original link there. Or maybe Slashdot...

-jk