A heads up from MONOLITH

[MONOLITH]

http://forums.theplatoon.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19404

[MONOLITH]

Originally posted by MONOLITH

[br]THE CATCH:

Originally posted by BajaBravo

[br] I explicitly told you none of my work was permitted in a BHD mod. I can't tell from the screenshots, but it looks as if you used one of my skins.

THE CONFESSION:

Originally posted by narcoleptic Kow

[br] we took stuff off of yoru skin ...... we did edit them.

Not only were the skins taken and altered, but they were done so after Baja explicitly instructed cow not too.

I expect the GR community to do the right thing here, we've been down this road before.

[[5R] Magic]

[Major Maximum]

<sigh> people these days....

[Zantar45]

Hope no thinks BJB went against his promise and gave someone permission to use his BHD skins.

He (Kow) said they edited the skins but if you look at them- they look exactly alike.

I'm sure it will take awhile but he said he was going to fix them, hope he follows through.

[Parabellum]

*sigh*

Those of you who don't regularly visit The Platoon just don't know the half of it.

[TheBlakeness (HotPants)]

no surprise here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marcinko]

another one i'm not downloadin, is there anyway to copywright ones stuff, so this doesnt happen to upcoming mod releases?

[Parabellum]

another one i'm not downloadin, is there anyway to copywright ones stuff, so this doesnt happen to upcoming mod releases?

This has already been discussed. Once BJB (or any other modder) creates something, it's protected by copyright laws. See here a statement from UbiSoft:

You will need to have permission from whoever made the mods to make them available for download. Unless they are retail maps or mods, you don't particularly need permission from Ubi Soft.

If you need permission from a modder just to make his work available for download, then it stands to reason that you'd need permission from a modder to use his work and/or make it available for download.

We just went through this last week. I don't understand why people don't seem to understand, if you didn't create it, you can't use it. It's that simple. It irks me to no end to see work from =DRAG= in crappy compilation 'mods', and I've never once been asked by certain folks if they could use the work that I labored so hard to make. I can certainly understand why Thom would be upset. And, the worst part is, Thom willingly lets people use his material all the time. If he told this Narc. Kow not to use his material, then that's not normal for Thom, and it indicates how strongly he feels about the situation.

[Marcinko]

The fact that Monolith talked to the widows of the event, and he (Kow) still went on to make it ###### me off, the theft isnt good either, but he had no regard for anyones wishes, not even the widows.

[Parabellum]

The fact that Monolith talked to the widows of the event, and he (Kow) still went on to make it ###### me off, the theft isnt good either, but he had no regard for anyones wishes, not even the widows.

I think that people who want to trivialize the the Battle of the Black Sea, need to study and read about men like Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart, and learn just who they are disrespecting.

The following is a piece about Gary Gordon, written by his wife to his children.

From USN&WR August 1, 1994..

RESPONSIBILITY

In 1993, Master Sgt. Gary Gordon was killed trying to rescue a fellow soldier in Mogadishu, Somalia. His widow, Carment, and their two children, Ian, 6, and Brittany, 3, live in Southern Pines, N.C.

My dearest Ian and Brittany, I hope that in the final moments of your father's life, his last thoughts were not of us. As he lay dying, I wanted him to think only of the mission to which he pledged himself. As you grow older, if I can show you the love and responsibility he felt for his family, you will understand my feelings. I did not want him to think of me, or of you, because I did not want his heart to break.

Children were meant to have someone responsible for them. No father ever took that more seriously than your dad. Responsibility was a natural part of him, an easy path to follow. Each day after work his truck pulled into our driveway. I watched the two of you run to him, feet pounding across the painted boards of our porch, yelling, "Daddy!" Every day, I saw his face when he saw you. You were the center of his life.

Ian, when you turned 1 year old, your father was beside himself with excitement, baking you a cake in the shape of a train. On your last birthday, Brittany, he sent you a handmade birthday card from Somalia. But your father had two families. One was us, and the other was his comrades. He was true to both.

He loved his job. Quiet and serious adventure filled some part of him I could never fully know. After his death, one of his comrades told me that on a foreign mission, your dad led his men across a snow-covered ridge that began to collapse. Racing across a yawning crevasse to safety, he grinned wildly and yelled, "Wasn't that great?"

You will hear many times about how your father died. You will read what the president of the United States said when he awarded the Medal of Honor: "Gary Gordon ... died in the most courageous and selfless way any human being can act." But you may still ask why. You may ask how he could have been devoted to two families so equally, dying for one but leaving the other.

For your father, there were no hard choices in life. Once he committed to something, the way was clear. He chose to be a husband and father, and neverwavered in those roles. He chose the military, and "I shall not fail those with whom I serve" became his simple religion. When his other family needed him, he did not hesitate, as he would not have hesitated for us. It may not have been the best thing for us, but it was the right thing for your dad.

There are times now when that image of him coming home comes back to me. I see him scoop you up, Ian, and see you, Brittany, bury your head in his chest. I dread the day when you stop talking and asking about him, when he seems so long ago. So now I must take responsibility for keeping his life entwined with yours. It is a responsibility I never wanted.

But I know what your father would say. "Nothing you can do about it, Carmen. Just keep going." Those times when the crying came, as I stood at the kitchen counter, were never long enough. You came in the front door, Brittany, saying, "Mommy, you sad? You miss Daddy?" You reminded me I had to keep going.

The ceremonies honoring your dad were hard. When they put his photo in the Hall of Heroes at the Pentagon, I thought, can this be all that is left, a picture? Then General Sullivan read from the letter General Sherman wrote to General Grant after the Civil War, words so tender that we all broke down. "Throughout the war, you were always in my mind. I always knew if I were in trouble and you were still alive you would come to my assistance."

One night before either of you were born, your dad and I had a funny little talk about dying. I teased that I would not know where to bury him. Very quietly, he said, "Up home. In my uniform." Your dad never liked to wear a uniform. And "up home," Maine, was so far away from us.

Only after he was laid to rest in a tiny flag-filled graveyard in Lincoln, Maine, did I understand. His parents, burying their only son, could come tomorrow and the day after that. You and I would not have to pass his grave on the way to the grocery store, to Little League games, to ballet recitals. Our lives would go on. And to the men he loved and died for, the uniform was a silent salute, a final repeat of his vows. Once again, he had taken care of all of us.

On a spring afternoon, a soldier from your dad's unit brought me the things from his military locker. At the bottom of a cardboard box, beneath his boots, I found a letter. Written on a small, ruled tablet, it was his voice, quiet but confident in the words he wanted us to have if something should happen to him. I'll save it for you, but so much of him is already inside you both. Let it grow with you. Choose your own responsibilities in life but always, always follow your heart. Your dad will be watching over you, just as he always did.

Love,

Mom

BHD was a good movie, and it paid proper respects to Gary Gordon, Randy Shughart, and their brothers. Now let's leave the whole BHD thing alone, and let these men rest in peace. Stop disrespecting them by trivializing their heroism and their deaths. If any of you can read that, and still want to make a 'mod' or a video game about those men, then you're a damned heartless ######.

Edited August 18, 2003 by Parabellum

[[Wx] Force]

Amen

[Marcinko]

If any of you can read that, and still want to make a 'mod' or a video game about those men, then you're a damned heartless ######.

Exactly

what i seem to think, is that these kids, yes i am a kid myself, and wont understand this fully till i become a soldier myself, but these kids, dont stop, and take the time to realise, that war is people taking one anothers life, PEOPLE ARE DYING, it's not fun and games, it's hell. Stop and think, some one is shooting another person, they are either dead, or suffering, and soon to be dead, people need to understand this, before they go making a mod about such events.

Edited August 18, 2003 by Marcinko

[Earl]

I only find it strange that the events in Somalia are so sensitive, while something like Afganistan isn't. Soldiers died there too. Widows are grieving for their husbands who gave their lives in that operation too. Will they feel any different when they see a computer game that recreates this scenario?

I know the heart of the issue was using real names in a BHD mod, but I think it was made clear that any recreation of the events, even without specific names, would be insulting to the friends and family of the soldiers who died there.

I think any recreation of real events would be a problem for those who went through it in real life, especially recent events. But that's exactly what many players want from Ghost Recon. I'm not making any call myself, I'm not saying one side is right or wrong, just trying to clarify that this is a bit bigger than BHD. Just because the families involved with 'BHD' were organized enough to ask MONOLITH and BajaBravo to stop, does it mean that only they deserve that respect? Everything else is okay? Afganistan, Iraq, Chechnya, East Timor? I don't know.

[Parabellum]

I only find it strange that the events in Somalia are so sensitive, while something like Afganistan isn't. Soldiers died there too. Widows are grieving for their husbands who gave their lives in that operation too. Will they feel any different when they see a computer game that recreates this scenario?

I know the heart of the issue was using real names in a BHD mod, but I think it was made clear that any recreation of the events, even without specific names, would be insulting to the friends and family of the soldiers who died there.

I think any recreation of real events would be a problem for those who went through it in real life, especially recent events. But that's exactly what many players want from Ghost Recon. I'm not making any call myself, I'm not saying one side is right or wrong, just trying to clarify that this is a bit bigger than BHD. Just because the families involved with 'BHD' were organized enough to ask MONOLITH and BajaBravo to stop, does it mean that only they deserve that respect? Everything else is okay? Afganistan, Iraq, Chechnya, East Timor? I don't know.

You make a valid point Earl. Modders and game makers should be sensitive toward military veterans and their families, no matter what conflict is involved.

[Whisper_44]

Para,

I'm not going to get involved with the true topic here, but wanted to say thank you for posting that letter, it truly touched my heart.

[Parabellum]

Para,

I'm not going to get involved with the true topic here, but wanted to say thank you for posting that letter, it truly touched my heart.

Go and read what the guys at www.bhd93.com have to say about Gordon, Shughart, and other fallen heroes. Their words are both touching and motivating. I have a sort of a mural that I've made, with pictures of of people who have influenced my life, and underneath each picture, is one word that sums up what that person means to me. Directly under Gary Gordon's picture is the word Responsibility.

[ReconSnake]

So what about Novalogic's Delta Force: Blackhawk Down?

Don't think for a second I don't respect every single one of our nation's military that has laid down his life - but there has been a lot of discordant & non-functional logic surrounding this subject from the beginning - and all of it pretty much got smashed to pieces when Novalogic put that game out. Where was the uproar over that?

[Parabellum]

So what about Novalogic's Delta Force: Blackhawk Down?

Don't think for a second I don't respect every single one of our nation's military that has laid down his life - but there has been a lot of discordant & non-functional logic surrounding this subject from the beginning - and all of it pretty much got smashed to pieces when Novalogic put that game out. Where was the uproar over that?

I personally hate novalogic's BHD game as well. They're just cashing in on the whole BHD craze. IIRC, there was a bit of an uproar over that game when it came out. But that game came and went just like the rest of Novalogic's games. Not only that but the crappy game from Novalogic was a single entity in a sea of unrest. When I look at the situation as a whole, I think that the reaction toward BHD inspired games/mods has been pretty even.

Anyway, I'm out of this one. I have very strong feelings not only about this subject, but the portrayal of actual events/persons in general.

Edited August 18, 2003 by Parabellum

[ReconSnake]

To each his own. I say if you don't like it, don't play it or read the threads that deal with it. Then everyone is happy.

[Marcinko]

I only find it strange that the events in Somalia are so sensitive, while something like Afganistan isn't. Soldiers died there too. Widows are grieving for their husbands who gave their lives in that operation too. Will they feel any different when they see a computer game that recreates this scenario?

knew this would be brought up.

I am making the Ghany mod, it's not gonna be accurate as far as missions, names, evnts, etc, it will be totally different. Not sure if that helps any, but in my mind, i think it's alright. Maybe thats just me. Theres no way around what happened in Somolia, it was 1 mission, in Ghany, there were TONS of missions. For example, i'm not gonna go rectreate the mission where Mike Spann, God rest his soul, died. thats insane. Hell, if u want me too, i can say screw the missions, and just make the chrs and weps?

[Rebar]

Seems to me there are two issues:

1) A mod about BHD.

2) Using others work without permission.

Weither you think a BHD mod is in bad taste (which I do), is one thing, and people can disagree with that.

However, using others work without permission, in this case using it despite being specifically told NOT to, is an entirely different matter, and there cannot be any discussion about it. It is wrong.

[ReconSnake]

Yeah, that about sums it up for me about using someone else's work despite his wishes.

[Avey]

I think your in the right Cink. If you don't try and recreate proper missions or use real people as the characters I don't think it would offend anyone

[San]

A map/chr file you can't edit, right ? Only rsb's.

In the map/chr files there are references to the rsb's, right?

So you can see in the map/chr files who's the creater (if he uses his name in the rsb file (like BJB )).

So they can't steal map/chr files, only textures.

Maybe put a layer on the rsb with your name, invisible for others but not for you.

This way they can edit your rsb and rename it, but it still has your name in it.

Possible ?

But even if it is, you'll need to check every new (suspicous) mod, every rsb.

It's like police-work, and I thought this was the army, can't we just shoot them ? lol.