Xian Saint Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I just finished Tom Clancy's Shadow Warriors - a non-fiction read about Special Forces...while I found it interesting...it's definitely not an action packed recount of special forces mission...more about the political development of the special forces...anyway...I read something that I found kind of disturbing...something that I never really imagined or considered, but now after thinking about it...and especially after seeing the video of the Mogadisha incident...or reading Andy McNabb's Bravo Two Zero about the torture they endured... The comment was... We had grenades clipped to our belts...but those we're suppose to be for us in case we were captured... I was kind of shocked by that...I guess I'd like to think that I would face any amount of torture and face death at the hand of my enemy then to take my own life with a grenade...but after readiing it from a "special operative" point of view...I just don't know... Very disturbing...to say the least...am I reading into this...or is this in the SOP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-Bob Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Not just to get out of the torture, but also to protect security I guess. Same reason certain divisions (not just military) distribute cyanide pills. But with a nade you can take 'em out with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specter Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Yeah...Id much rather have the 'nade. They wont get me for free that way ! ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avey Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 (edited) McNab supposedly exaggerated some of his interrogation ordeal. Still i wouldn't fancy any kind of interrogation. Before the mission most SAS men were hyping the Iraqis techniques to that of the PIRA and that you'd be better off shooting yourself before capture. But some soldiers have said that the interrogation they went through was nothing compared to how McNab writes it. Its one word against another, you decide which one to believe... Edited July 30, 2003 by avey2904 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 (edited) When it comes down who to believe I think I would give both the benefit of the doubt as I wasn't there. Also no two people have the same threashold of pain and endurance. This would also aide in someone's opinion of how bad or intense torture was. But again since I haven't had any real first hand knowledge of what these gentlemen went through I wouldn't really want to hazard a guess beyone what I have just said. As far as whether I would want a nade or pill...Well I will take the nade anyday of the week and twice on Sunday's cause someone is coming with me!! Stout Hearts Warhawk Edited July 30, 2003 by warhawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supasniper Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 It's the same idea as when a sniper/SF trooper/deep recon guy will save the last round in their side arm for themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specter Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Right on...When they tell you go to hell!! You say back, You first scumbag ! ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avey Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Right on...When they tell you go to hell!! You say back, You first scumbag ! ! Then the end credits come up and everyone leaves the cinema Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Splash Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 McNab supposedly exaggerated some of his interrogation ordeal. It's not so much that, but if you've read both 'The Real Bravo Two Zero' and the 'Eye of the Storm' it doesn't take much to deduce that both Ryan and McNabb's first books are on the whole fictional, which was totally unecessary. Maybe not for the publisher though...after all SAS does stand for 'Sale After Sale' doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 @Dick Splash I certainately hope that with that comment on the SAS that you are A) joking and B) either been in or have been in the service yourself. If so please disreguard this post. Stout Hearts Warhawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefly2442 Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 I think it would be very hard to kill yourself. I mean, to know that you were going to have to go through a lot of pain is very hard but committing suicide, I just don't think that can be easy. Esh. I doubt many people would do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Splash Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 (edited) I certainately hope that with that comment on the SAS that you are A) joking and B) either been in or have been in the service yourself. If so please disreguard this post. guys, please let's keep it polite. Thanks. Edited July 31, 2003 by Yodasplat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebite1967 Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 you could also expect that editors and rewriters might juice a story up that came out droll and read more like a military manual, after all these books are written to A tell a story and B make money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specter Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 OK guys. Let's keep this on topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlakeness (HotPants) Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 McNab supposedly exaggerated some of his interrogation ordeal. Still i wouldn't fancy any kind of interrogation. Before the mission most SAS men were hyping the Iraqis techniques to that of the PIRA and that you'd be better off shooting yourself before capture. But some soldiers have said that the interrogation they went through was nothing compared to how McNab writes it. Its one word against another, you decide which one to believe... I dont think he exagerated the kind of torture he indured. I have read several accounts of the brutality of Iraqis towards POWs. let me give you an example of one that come to mind right now. I read about one guy who no longer has any sexual feeling due to the constant electric shock treatment for him, and his jaw his now permenantly messed up from when they kicked it in during interrogation and then wired back together wrong. He also said that most POWs only go through interrogation and torture for a brief time...usually when they first get there. but not with the Iraqis...during his stay it was ongoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avey Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Yeah i know hotpants it must of been bad but other members of the patrol (stan & mark) both said that it wasn't as bad as Mcnab made it. Anyhow, lets leave it at that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xian Saint Posted July 31, 2003 Author Share Posted July 31, 2003 As far as the you'll never take me alive, I'm pulling the pin thing... Here is my problem with that...while I don't have a whole lot of experience with grenades...(as in - basically nil)...I have heard of many cases where troops have survived grenade attacks...even where grenades have gone off in the "kill zone" - I think I'd rather risk torture and death from the enemy then pull the pin on my own grenade and blow my leg off and not finish the job...then what... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC Davies 61 Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 When i was in, We had a Sgt from 22 SAS called flighty attached to us in Iraq, A conversation arised about this one on what the procedure is if captured, As i was in Support Company Recon platoon, Bascialy the standard procedure is , Name, Rank, Number and nothing else, Only if we were holding vital information which could breach American or British strategic plans, Are we excpected to take our lives into our own hands, He then gave us a morale boosting speech on how takeing your life, Instead of cracking under interogation and leaking information, Can save more lives than yours. Distrubing but true, But then all your ever told is your expendable. Also both Andy Mcnabb and Chris Ryan are not there real names, Which didnt suprise me. I think maybe alot of situation written in books are exagerated to make sales better and the book more intensive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avey Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Here is my problem with that...while I don't have a whole lot of experience with grenades...(as in - basically nil)... Don't they let you play with grenades in subs?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wareagle1990 Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Ok what is the name of the book...The Real Bravo Two Zero? I just finished Bravo Two Zero by McNab. Is there another one by a similar name because I couldn't find it on Amazon.com. Also have you read In the Comany of Heroes by Mike Durant? He was the BlackHawk pilot captured in Somalia. Good book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Splash Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 I've met Chris Ryan and it his 'real' name. Andy McNabb's name is made up however. His real name's Steve. 'The Real Bravo Two Zero' is on the Amazon.co.uk website. Just one example of B.S. from Ryan's book is when he was supposed to have single handedly taken on the Iraqi Army when he was on his own. He made no mention of this in a videoed debrief in front of the RSM and the CO at Hereford! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avey Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Andy McNabb's name is made up however. His real name's Steve. I know Andy Mcnab is a pseudonym. The thing about him been called steve came from The real B20. Supposedly a man who refused to talk to Michael Asher had been taken hostage when they hijacked a car. This man says the commander responded to the name Steve. Well i have my own theory on this. Trooper Steven 'Legs' Lane sat in the front passenger seat. I think that the Iraqi confused Legs as the commander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Splash Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 That sounds familiar avey, but Asher implies he knows that AM's name is Steve anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xian Saint Posted July 31, 2003 Author Share Posted July 31, 2003 Don't they let you play with grenades in subs?? We have enough other things to hurt ourselves with... (but I am qualified with the M/16 - M203 if that helps answer your question) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avey Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 That sounds familiar avey, but Asher implies he knows that AM's name is Steve anyway. Yeah, I reckon Asher overlooked the avey theory... @XS The M203? Just incase you go OTR on the sea bed!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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