CtheHammer Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Marines Begin Special Operations Try By GIDGET FUENTES .c The Associated Press CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) Eighty-six men have begun a one-year trial to determine if the Marines will join Navy SEALs, Green Berets and Air Force Special Operations Forces in the military's special operations forces. The Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment One was activated during a ceremony Friday at Camp Pendleton, where it will begin training next week. In October, the commando force will join Naval Special Warfare Group One in Coronado, Calif., to train with the Navy. It will go overseas in April, likely for combat missions in the war on terror. Unlike other special operations forces, the Marines unit will have a deep roster of specialists in areas including fire support, counter-intelligence, linguistics and communications. Marine Lt. Col. Robert J. Coates, a seasoned reconnaissance officer, is heading the unit. The mix of troops ``provides the type of light mobile and lethal forces critical to success in the global war on terrorism,'' said Lt. Gen. Earl B. Hailston, who commands all Marine Corps forces in the Pacific region. The troops have an unusual degree of seniority and experience. The youngest members are sergeants, with an average age of 33. Each has completed 15 to 20 different schools, which range from airborne and dive schools to advanced courses in close-quarters combat, free-fall parachuting and demolition. The trial run comes just as the Bush administration seeks to grow the 47,000-member U.S. Special Operations force by 2,563 and boost its budget by 46 percent. The joint command enjoys strong backing from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Initially, the Marines' presence will be tiny compared to the 2,700 Navy SEALs and special boat crews, 26,000 Army Rangers and Green Berets and 10,000 Air Force special operations personnel. The Marines troops seemed unfazed by the unit's relatively small size. Sgt. Mike Mulvihill, a 10-year Marine veteran who left the military two years ago, jumped at Coates' invitation a few months ago to join the force. ``I was doing cartwheels in my living room,'' said Mulvihill, 35, of Pittsburgh. Master Sgt. James R. Rutan drew a parallel between the new force and the Marine Raiders, who were pioneers in amphibious reconnaissance operations during World War II. ``Its everything we always wished for to be nationally recognized,'' Rutan said. Got this through AOL news and thought it might be of general interest C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 So Marines finnaly have Spec Ops, well i'll be a monkeys uncle!!! glad to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconSnake Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 We've had special ops capable elements for quiet a while, just never been part of USSOCOM. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 CAPABLE ie.. ca·pa·ble adj. Having capacity or ability; efficient and able: a capable administrator. Having the ability required for a specific task or accomplishment; qualified: capable of winning. Having the inclination or disposition: capable of violence. Permitting an action to be performed: an error capable of remedy; a camera capable of being used underwater. doesnt mean they were spec ops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconSnake Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 A force is spec ops if it undertakes spec op missions. Period. It is a generic term, not limited to USSOCOM or any other force for that matter. You seem to be trying to define something merely by the semantics without an underlying understanding of the actual military realities. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 i'm just relaying what i've been told, because Marines didn't have a group under SOCOM technically, they dont have a special operations group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jester Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Guys, it's all academic -- let's just let it drop. Some people have differing opinions on it. Let's leave it at that, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconSnake Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 With all due respect, it is not academic or a difference of opinion Jester. What I have said is correct. Dropping it from this point on is fine with me though RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtheHammer Posted June 23, 2003 Author Share Posted June 23, 2003 No, what I think will be interesting is how they will define themselves and what sort of roles they will take on. Could it be a Marine version of the SEALs? Since World War II and the UDT days the SEALs have been the ones doing beach recon for the Marines. Now I would not be surprised if parts of Force Recon (watch me I don't know much about Marine spec ops so stop me if I say something dumb) are trained in hydrographic reconnaisance, but it is still the SEALs that do a lot of that. It may be the sort of idea that the Marines want to be backed up by Marines (the same reasoning behind carriers deploying with all Marine squadrons of F-18's on board). Of course, spec ops missions that go public go public big and if the missions go off great then it is a huge publicity event for the unit that pulled it off, and the Marines may be wanting to jump on board for that as well. Either way, as the unit grows and becomes more established, it will be interesting to see what missions it takes on, where its focus tends to go, and what kind of turf wars take place (because it's almost guaranteed that there will be turf wars). Anyway, just some thoughts. Would like to see what some Marines think this unit's mission and focus might be, though. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 What we both have said can be considered true, and as RS said, it's a difference of opionion. Consider it dropped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabellum Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 To add to what RS said, the Marines have had special operations groups for quite some time. Just because Force Recon and the MEU aren't under the command of USSOCOM, doesn't mean they're not special operations units. Until relatively recently, USSOCOM didn't even exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconSnake Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 The main motivator for the Marines joining USSOCOM from the scuttlebutt I have heard is funding - >USSOCOM has a nice publicity machine going = public falls in love with the special operators = more funding from D.C. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Ledanek Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 my 2 cents: its just a matter of title/budgets...GAO (General Accounting Office) can't add without calculators...6 men x 2 weapons each x 150 rounds/per weapon = ??? damn! lets do that again...6 men If the get the title: Great...Congratulations! If not...they still kicks ass and take names... I bet right now if these few men are reading this forum, they'd be on the floor laughing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Guess were not gonna drop this, how realtivly recent is recent? i have no idea how u figure there not spec ops group, just because a unit carries out a spec op "type" assignment, doesnt designate them spec ops, if that was the case, 10th Mtn, or 101st would be comsidered Spec., as they have done some rique ops. The name says it itse;f SOC, special operations capaable. becoming adopted under SOCOM does designate a unit as spec. maybe i'm wrong, but from EVERYTHING i've read, the Marines have an awesome group called Force Recon, but, since this group is not under USSOCOM, they are not techincally deemed spec ops. Though they may carry out mission similar, to that of a SOCOM unit. frankly i'm tired of arguing the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconSnake Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 The issue was dropped until you just brought it up again. So I will clarify one last time: As I have already tried to explain to you in this thread, special operations is a general term, and merely refers to an operation outside the normal doctrines of conventional warfare. It is not, I repeat not, a term label that can only be applied to units under the USSOCOM COC. As the good CPL said, spec-op is merely a loose title and nothing to get impressed by or worry about getting - but I am correcting you so that you can operate under correct information. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabellum Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 USSOCOM was formed in 1987 by the Reagan Administration. A command umbrella for SOF units wasn't even considered until after Desert One, when Gen. Myers formed the 1st Special Operations Command in 1982. The Navy SEAL's, Army Special Forces, Rangers, and Air Force special operations were all in existance, performing the same basic roles they now perform, all before USSOCOM came into being. Does that mean that they weren't special operations units? Hardly. USSOCOM was formed to facilitate the oversight of special operations forces, to ensure coherent policy making that influenced low-intensity conflict and special operations situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Does that mean that they weren't special operations units? Hardly. As the good RS said, it's merely a matter of opinion I ahve a question, since Recon doesnt operate under SOCOM, does it follows SOCOM's rules, if they were to "give" orders, would they "have" to follow them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconSnake Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 The general answer is that up until lately USSOCOM is not in the USMC COC (chain of command) at all. Theoretically speaking, there could have been instances in the past where USMC elements were used for tasks not directly commanded by the USMC, but rather controlled by other elements in the United States military such as USSOCOM. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Ok, this is just a scenario, but say, for the Lynch rescue, it was said, SEALs, Rangers, and Marines were involved, now Rangers and SEALs are under SOCOM, but Marines arent. So, if there were commands that needed to be given, and that paticualr of was ran by SOCOM, how would they go about doin it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconSnake Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 USSOCOM would have tactical command. The USMC forces would be placed into their Tac COC for the mission. That could easily go the other way to if circumstances were different. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteKnight77 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Remember that spec ops forces grew out of WW2 OSS units, long before SOCOM was ever dreamed of. Read Tom Clancy's "Shadow Warriors" to get a better understanding of how spec ops came about and is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuSaKi Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 from EVERYTHING i've read, the Marines have an awesome group called Force Recon, but, since this group is not under USSOCOM, they are not techincally deemed spec ops. Well from EVERYTHING I've read, ReconSnake is Ex-USMC and I'm impressed by his patience with you in this matter. Books don't make you an expert, bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Never said they did PAL i know what unit RS was in. asnd as far as bein patient with me, i've seen some pretty stretched out, amazing things that u have said, and can say the same about some having patience with you i'm just a kid tryin to learn, and learining i am. what input do u have. bro! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuSaKi Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 (edited) I don't have input. What I've read about spec ops is just that: what i've read. By their very nature, all things about spec ops units are censored and distorted in a way that would attract potential recruits but not give away any secrets. In short, I know enough to know that I don't know. For that reason, I've never bothered to argue with someone who obviously knows the situation better then I do. Learning is fine, but to learn you have to listen and ask questions. Just don't try to teach the teacher. That said, I'm out of this thread. Edited June 23, 2003 by FuSaKi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Who said anything about him bein a teacher, as far as u know, i know more about spec ops than he does. I DONT, but as far as u know, i can know ur midle name, bud. i'm done with this too, takin precious time away from my modeling, damn characters, lol. good wriddens to ya. thanks for info RS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.