Game Engines

[Crimson]

Interesting. My GeForce 4 Ti4400 only gets 60 frames. Most interesting. My processor is also faster, at 2500+.

I dont think Ruin ment to say what he said in those words. We shall see.

[Specter]

@sartilles

Ive read it. And no one here has made a threat to do anything.

But, as there are people that agree with you, there are people that agree with us, and do want to post. So the point is, if its ###### you guys off that much, just leave the thread alone and let people post. You guys dont need this kind of aggravation. Dont do it to yourselves.

Pretty simple.

Edited June 18, 2003 by phantom110565

[Ruin]

Telling people in a forum that this thread is ###### you off, as the staff/moderator, will just tell people that no one really wants to hear if there is a problem or not.

Ya know, I've done pretty good for holding back my personal feelings on a lot of things because of this badge that I'm so honored to have (because I realize I represent the site and I have to hold a certain standard). It's a big accomplishment on my end. But I'm learning that I too have an opinion that should be valued as equal (inspite of my age - which I'm getting the feeling has a lot to do with the arguements I get in). And my opinion is that all of these complaints are really getting annoying.

Whether I'm staff or not has nothing to do with it. I, as a person, think that this thread is pointless and is only a way to vent anger in the wrong direction (and at the wrong website for that matter). And, quite honestly, I'm tired of being treated like I'm 3. Like everything I say is wrong (this isn't aimed at you specifically phantom, just some general anger) and my opinion doesn't matter. I had a comment of mine ignored for two pages on a thread. I think I'm reaching my general breaking point, but I know others who are as well.

There's only so much we can say about this in the background.

What I think Sart means is that he thinks we're getting the same info over and over again:

but it is a tad annoying (from EVERYONES stand point) to see the same remark over and over and over and over and over and over in every reply every person makes.

[connie lingus]

Greetings!

I must agree with the statement that many bought RVS solely on the R6 and GR reputation. As someone who started out with R6 and Rogue Spear, I had purchased GR without trying the demo.

As to using this Unreal Engine for GR2---if the performance problems are even remotely like RVS then I'm against it.

RVS should have been, and could have been so much more! It's a huge disapointment, and very frustrating in MP especially.

That said, I'm determined to find a way to make this work better, since I'm such a fan of the maps and music in this game.

BTW--this is a very good thread!

[NYR_32]

I tried the demo's of RvS... and I don't like the feel that the Unreal engine gives the game... that is the sole reason I will never buy RS3... I hope RSE does to GR2 what UBI should have done with RS3.... use their own custom engine.

Edited June 18, 2003 by NYR_32

[Specter]

Well guys, and ladies,

Since I have obviously gotten on someone's nerves for saying what I thought, and disagreeing with a couple of people in here, to the point of upsetting one of them, this will be my final post in here. I have said what I have to say on the matter. I just hope that people dont look at this thread and quit posting on the issue, especially this early in the development of GR2.

Some major issues with the current engine were brought up, and hopefully a developer will take notice, since this is one of the few forums that they seem to still visit, because of the civility of the members and the professionalism by the staff here.

Again, I apologize if my comments upset you, and you didnt feel that they could be looked at objectively.

Edited June 18, 2003 by phantom110565

[Sgt. Slaughter]

Nothing to see here obviously.

Edited June 18, 2003 by Sgt. Slaughter

[ZJJ]

Dang, I actually go to bed at a decent hour and end up waking up to this!

If you want to discuss the problems you are having with the Unreal engine in regards to Raven Shield, please post here. I don't see the point in having duplicate threads going on the same topic in two different forums.

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of various engines that RSE could use for GR2 we can continue that discussion here. There are a lot of possible engines that could be used and I see this discussion mainly focusing on the Unreal engine.

I am working on a followup piece to the wishlist that has been running for the past month. I know little to nothing about game engines. Educate me about different engines and why they should or should not be used for GR2.

[connie lingus]

Greetings!

With all due respect, the pros and cons of the Unreal Engine are ALL about the various performance problems that are universal to RvS.

Also the mod-ability factor is a major concern.

That's why people don't want GR2 to use Unreal.

Because of that fact, GR is still out-selling RvS. And as a result of that, I believe that GR2 has been delayed in order to foster more Ghost Recon sales.

I hope UBI/RSE takes the extra time to consider that the good press and excitement that was created by GR and R6, was cashed-in when RvS was released, and that they need to do much more on GR2.

[Rocky]

However I feel I have stated issues I have with RVS over at the Aggression website only to be completely ignored or actually attacked(flamed) for being a dumb###### newb!

Show me that thread.

[ZJJ]

With all due respect, the pros and cons of the Unreal Engine are ALL about the various performance problems that are universal to RvS.

Also the mod-ability factor is a major concern.

I've seen a lot of cons for the Unreal engine. Haven't seen many pros (maybe there aren't any). I would also like to hear more about the mod-ability issues regarding the Unreal engine.

What about other engines? In my report I've read about the possible use of the CryEngine or Karma Physics, as well as an in house developed engine like what GR uses. What are the pros and cons of those? How would modding be affected if those were used? Would realism suffer?

I am hoping this thread explores options for engines and not just bash the Unreal.

Like I said earlier.... educate me

[Specter]

I agree Rocky. I have Unreal, and SC and some other games, and I dont think it is soley the engine either. Its what Ubi did or didnt do with it. There are a ton of MP issues out thee. For some, like me and others, it is unplayable at 13 FPS and lower, even on the hottest machines. Ruin has stated that if he spends 50 bucks on a game, he will make it work. The simple fact is, not only does everyone that plays games have enough PC knowledge to do this, but alot of people simply dont have time to spend like that tweaking there systems to accomodate one program.

People buy a game and expect for 50.00 for it to work. Its that simple.

The fact is, its not the engines fault. Its Ubi's fault for not optimizing the code, and also for forcing us to go through there service to be able to play MP, when there game service is also frought with issues.

The reason that you dont hear alot of complaints is, as I stated in the GR2 thread at gr.net, is most people dont have forum memberships, either do to lack of time or lack of interest in forums. As far as that goes, try contacting Ubi for support. That in itself is a joke, if you can even get an answer from them. When GR came out, RSE had excellent support, and the game runs. Thats why GR is still outselling RvS, and GR is over 2 years old.

[Ruin]

With all due respect, the pros and cons of the Unreal Engine are ALL about the various performance problems that are universal to RvS.

Also the mod-ability factor is a major concern.

I've seen a lot of cons for the Unreal engine. Haven't seen many pros (maybe there aren't any). I would also like to hear more about the mod-ability issues regarding the Unreal engine.

That's because only the people who dislike the engine are writing about it.

IMO it's one of the most felixible engiens out there. From UT2K3 to America's Army (Fantasy vs Realism) some of the graphics are absolute eye candy (smoke grenades, flash bangs, even muzzle flashes). Just the character animation is VERY realistic. The ability to slow or fast open doors, slide down ladders, throw grenades over or under hand, and thermal scopes are just a few of the bonuses.

You have to REALLY play RVS to get the full felling of the game. I haven't even palyed SP yet and already I'm in love with nearly every aspect of the game. With a few minor gripes. Nothing that can't be fixed.

I think the Unreal Engine can be made to support mods, and if UBI does this with GR2, they'd have a best seller on their hands.

No engine is perfect, look at how many patches we have for GR. And everyone is complaining about RVS that's only to 1.3. Just wait till the expansion pack. I get the feeling that will be run as a mod.

[ReconSnake]

There are major numbers of people that have RvS and its collecting dust, because it wont run satisfactorily in MP. I know 10 people myself, that have returned the game, and probably wont buy GR2 if its built on the same engine.

My copy is an expensive paperweight. Ravenshield runs fine on my system, in SP & in MP. So performance isn't an issue for me. I just don't like the huge departure that was taken in the feel and gameplay departments from the original. I won't buy anymore RSE or Ubi games that play the way RVS does. So far I own everything put out in the Rainbow Six series and the GR series. I hate RVS - as a sequel to R6.

RS

[Specter]

Mine is too. But it isnt necessarily the engine's fault. Its what they did or didnt do with it.

My machine isnt sad by any stretch of the imagination, but in MP, it barely runs.

Its what Ubi did or didnt do with the net code, and the fact that we are forced to use their service for MP.

Since R6 and Eagle Watch, I havent bought all the Clancy games to play SP. I buy them to play MP. And I know alot of people that do the same and are in the same boat. Then on top of that, we cant get any help from Ubi.

RvS was the first game that I ever returned to the store.

While its true that GR has had a few patches, it always ran, and ran well for most of us. We are still playing it more than 2 years after release. If they come out with another expansion for GR, I will have it.

So, in my mind, it boils down to one of 2 things. One, either its the engine, which some say wasnt really designed to handle the environment that we play in, or Two, Ubi didnt take the time to really work the engine over, to fit the environment for the game. Either way, something needs to be fixed.

Perhaps if I knew more about game engines as well, I could spend some time with it, and make it work.

But right now, the point is this, and at the moment, Im in the same boat as a great many game buyers.

If I pay 50 bucks for a game, It should install, and work right, with a minimum of tweaking. If you have nothing but time, and can tweak all day, thats great.

But if you work, and have a family, most of the time you get to play, you want to play, not tweak. Another aspect of this is, if you do alot on your machine, run alot of different apps, tweaking for one game will also affect your other software, depending on how much you have to change. This isnt an option for everyone.

Maybe, we could get a thread going, so that we can learn more about the engines from those of you that know. It would offer alot of insite into what's going on.

[Deadpreacher]

Phantom wrote,

IMHO, they do GR2 the way they did RvS, Ubi is going to be in for a rude awakening, because there will be people like me who wont buy it. And I would suspect that there are alot more of us than you realize. Ubi blew it with RvS. If its an indicator of things to come, then alot of us will still be running GR in 2 or 3 more years, as thats the last well made game they made.

Couldnt of said it better myself! I've been in boycotting RvS for 2 mouths now and even after the v1.3 patch im back too boycotting and the expasion packs im not even going too think about when they hit the selves!

And for hopfully GR2 i myself would like them too use the HL2 engin and if it does come down too them use the Unreal enig again i find myself lost in worther too buy or not because of my love for GR! and if still they do use the engin they BETTER NOT HAVE THE SAME DAMN TEAM MAKE THE GAME THAT DID RVS anyhow! so at least GR2 has a halfway chance.

Them guys over at RvS have no clue on how too make a patch and all they do is keep you around for mounths just in hopes for a Patch that Might fix it and too date they still asking you too wait for the next patch and v1.3 just came out and they need a patch for it! ######...

So I'm with phantom at least GR is good for a few more years in my book and from what i here theres a expansion on the way this year! Loven it!!!

Edited June 18, 2003 by deadpreacher

[Specter]

What do all you modders and hard core gamers think would be a good Engine for GR2?

I myself, dont know alot about game engines, but would like to.

What are some of the pros and cons of different engines in relation to the upcoming GR2?

What are some of the things that you all think Ubi or RSE would need to do to them to get GR2 to run well on them?

Lets hear some thoughts on cheat prevention, MP, and modding. What can they do to prevent cheating with these engines, and still be able to create mods? Lets face it. From the amount of modding that goes on with GR, even 2 years later, that's important to us.

What engines would be good for modding while minimizing cheating?

Moderator edit: I merged the two game engine topics as these are questions I am hoping will be answered in this thread. Thanks.

Edited June 18, 2003 by zjj

[warhawk]

I agree that a large part of the problem with any game coming out from UBI is the fact that UBI is involved in it. Don't get me wrong here but with the limited experience I have had with UBI on Ghost Recon and another game that is STILL in devolopment, and has been for over 4 years now, I have come to the exciting conclusion that UBI is not a very end user friendly company. This is not to say that individuals at UBI are all like this but by and large those I have had contact with are.

That said, there are still only two things that will keep me from buying the game. This thread is not the place for those two items and if you are interested look in this section and you will find my post on it. However low frame rates I deal with. I deal with them on a consistant basis in GR. To give you one example, my framerates on the "Caves" map playing a stock firefight mission are typically less than 10fps. I rarely go above 39fps on any map at any time while playing the game. EVER!

So for those of you dealing with frame rates in the 20's with the Unreal Engine, cry me a river. I don't mean that as a flame so please keep that in mind. Rather just remember that no matter how bad you have it someone else has it worse.

Stout Hearts

Warhawk

Edited June 18, 2003 by warhawk

[Sgt. Slaughter]

However I feel I have stated issues I have with RVS over at the Aggression website only to be completely ignored or actually attacked(flamed) for being a dumb###### newb!

Show me that thread.

That thread occurred before Aggression was revamped so im guessing it's gone.

Edited June 28, 2003 by Sgt. Slaughter

[Ruin]

What do all you modders and hard core gamers think would be a good Engine for GR2?

Personally, I think the current egine should be revamped. Allow more things that RSE can change. Modding is drastically easy, but time consuming, the sounds are great, and the overall game is great.

There are things to be fine tuned like AI, animations, and maybe some of the maps. But all in all I think we already have a great engine.

But I wont complain with the Unreal engine as long as we can mod and it has mod support. Although, I think the Unreal engine is probably easier to mod than the current GR engine.

[hephaestus]

Personally, I think the current egine should be revamped. Allow more things that RSE can change. Modding is drastically easy, but time consuming, the sounds are great, and the overall game is great.

There are things to be fine tuned like AI, animations, and maybe some of the maps. But all in all I think we already have a great engine.

But I wont complain with the Unreal engine as long as we can mod and it has mod support. Although, I think the Unreal engine is probably easier to mod than the current GR engine.

My thoughts exactly. GR2 needs to have good modding potential to sustain lasting appeal. The gameplay will be good with either the current engine or unreal IMO.

[WhiteKnight77]

The whole idea behind this thread was to show people that sometimes you get what you ask for and can regret it later. As you can see, more have posted about how well RvS doesn't work for them. If GR2 had the same engine as RvS, don't you think the same problems would crop up? I started this to get some discussion going on why it would not be a good idea to use Unreal for GR2 after reading someone ask at the Red Storm Forum this question:

Why did Ubi decide to use the Unreal II engine instead of having RedStorm make a new one, and why didn't RedStorm develope this game?

This is in reference to one game only.

How many people have asked that same question?

Show me what other game engines can do that will let GR2 be as good or better than GR. What about the FPWV, do we want an engine that allows for Rambo view (even if it is an option that can be turned off.)

I just don't like the huge departure that was taken in the feel and gameplay departments from the original.

This is one of my gripes about RvS, adding that was as RS stated. Other game engines do allow for this IIRC.

[hephaestus]

I came late into the RS series-- RvS was my first experience of RS. So, I would have to say that I was fairly captivated by all of the new features I was exposed to having played GR for a while. But, since I would consider myself a bigger fan of GR than of RS, I would really like to see what the guys at RSE can pull off without having to use a 'foreign' engine, so to speak. So I think I understand the complaints a lot of you have regarding the RS series. I guess RvS just doesn't have the same feel as the other RS series, which I've never played. And in that line of thought, I would agree that I want GR to continue to be distinctly GR. Improve the game and add some useful features, but don't piece together remains of a few different games and end up bringing to life a monster.

[Sart]

If GR2 had the same engine as RvS, don't you think the same problems would crop up?

No..... like I said a trillion times now, almost all your complaints have to do with UBIs coding of unreal, not the thing itself. They just rushed it, thats all. Look at AA.... outdoor comabt.... very realistic... and it runs great, a fine example of what unreal can dish out.

Ill post it somemore so you'll see it. ...

Almost all your complaints have to do with UBIs coding of unreal, not the thing itself.

Almost all your complaints have to do with UBIs coding of unreal, not the thing itself.

There we go.

[Ruin]

The whole idea behind this thread was to show people that sometimes you get what you ask for and can regret it later. As you can see, more have posted about how well RvS doesn't work for them.

Then allow me to be greedy.

RVS runs wodnerfully on my system. I think that GR2 on the Unreal Engine will as well. So I want it to be on a good engine. I don't know much about any other engines but I do know the original R6 one is obolete now, the current GR one needs some adjusting... but the Unreal engine is great.