Burner's "An Analytical View of ARMA's Artificial Intellig

[twcrash]

I only wish you were playing games when OFP came out. There are such great mods that completely changed the game from how that Demo played. GRAA 3.0 FFUR series WGL, FNF make the game awesome. I still play it with GRAA 3.0 and WW4 2.5 I don't think I will ever stop playing it. Another game you should look into is Vietcong Fist Alpha. It had some of the best AI I have ever played. It also added features up to then games didn't have like looking over a log while aiming. One of the first games I ever played were the Ai stalked you and snuck up on you.

If you can't find it let me know I can probably get you a copy

Edited May 9, 2015 by twcrash

[wombat50]

Thanks Burner, enjoyed Analysis of Artificial Intelligence in Military Simulators video.

Fair points. Thanks for the heads up about Brothers in Arms.

[Jeza]

Another game you should look into is Vietcong Fist Alpha. It had some of the best AI I have ever played. It also added features up to then games didn't have like looking over a log while aiming. One of the first games I ever played were the Ai stalked you and snuck up on you.

If you can't find it let me know I can probably get you a copy

+1 millions, still roll through both campaigns twice a year for god knows how long

My retreat did not go to plan here Awesome game

[Burner]

Interesting, what do you Gentlmen think of "Elite Warriors: Vietnam", and "Line of Sight: Vietnam" compared to the "Vietcong" game?

Is the AI Interesting and believable?

There hasnt been a widely successful Vietnam game to date, it would be interesting to see a studio do a modern Vietnam experience. The closet Ive seen in ARMA's UNSUNG Mod.

[Jeza]

Interesting, what do you Gentlmen think of "Elite Warriors: Vietnam", and "Line of Sight: Vietnam" compared to the "Vietcong" game?

Is the AI Interesting and believable?

There hasnt been a widely successful Vietnam game to date, it would be interesting to see a studio do a modern Vietnam experience. The closet Ive seen in ARMA's UNSUNG Mod.

I think most would agree Vietcong and its expansion are the top dogs interms of vietnam, that said there are not that many dogs!

Line of site was fun, but was not really my cup of tea. The atmosphere created in Vietcong is still fantastic. As for A.i. they'll use all cover available to them run around to other bits of cover, and later on when you get to face NVA you should notice they are slightly better at this. So I would take a shot at it if you have the chance.

Indeed nothing much new on the name front, but keep an eye on incountry, it was going to be an RO2 mod but I think they've gone standalone.

http://www.incountrygame.com/

[twcrash]

Elite was a Kuma Wars knock off I believe. in 2004 Kuma Wars was a pretty tactical game we played alot of as well. Maybe you can try that one as well. I know it was one of the first games I ever played that had built in voice comms.

[portland]

The only point I would have to add to this is the video has only one mil/sim and that's Arma 2. The rest are shooters with generic ai that is very basic when compared to Arma 2, especially when Arma 2 has advanced ai modifications included.

Arma 2 can't really be put into that video alongside those other titles. The video needs a new heading and Arma 2 removed really. Arma 3 is o.k. to be included as its makers agree its not a simulation

Just my own personal view from a military simulator player and groups point. VBS2 Jcove lite, was and still is a free title, which would be the only other game to compare Arma 2 too. Unless of course you own any other VBS sim or those titles previous to Arma 2.

The video heading should be changed to, ai in FPS, for me anyway. Its an interesting video, but doesn't cover the actual topic very well i.e. military simulation games/training tools ai.

Edited May 12, 2015 by portland

[twcrash]

before there was ArmA 2 alot of these games WERE the real simulators. As far back ad Doom (yes they made a milsim based off Doom) games have been used as milsims. Not just VBS. Full Spectrum Warrior, Close Combat First To Fight, America's Army (more of a recruiting tool), PRISM Guard Shield (another recruiting tool) Canadian Forces Direct Action were all ones to name a few. I remember Marines using Kuma Wars and doing training runs with it even. I wish they still had those videos up. It was nice watching trained soldiers play as a team Plus there are a TON of non FPS military trainers.

[portland]

The ones mentioned in the video are not training tools -mil/sims-, only Arma 2 was mentioned in the video that would be given that name, by the makers themselves. Although that too was not used as a training tool by the military, but is the nearest we have to a genuine mil/sim without something like VBS which we've used a lot in the past.

AA have moved away from being a sim style, which is a shame.

The rest in the video are FPS games, some of them are good games. But they are NOT mil/sims.

A simulator will not be story driven, that's a game. The main reason why Arma 2 stands out is that there is a training application in there. The Editor. Training scenarios can be run from that part of the game. That is really why they can rightly call it a mil/sim.

Games can be used to encourage young men and women to join up. That is a different thing altogether.

But when it gets down to the basics of simulating virtual warfare, the government will use the correct application which would be something like VBS2/3.

The nearest we have and also called by the makers a mil/sim is Arma 2. Certainly from the ones in the video, which are all FPS games other than Arma 2 as a crossover, only because of the Editor, not the story side.

I don't view it from a gamers point, I only view it from a military point of view. That's where most of our players come from, non of those will recognise the other games mentioned in the video as mil/sims, or indeed some of the others you mentioned there.

From a gamers point of view the other games in the video might be seen as mil/sims, but they're not, simply FPS games.

[Burner]

Portland,

I hear what your saying man. Technically your right, they are not commercial simulators like VBS etc. However, I call them sims because they "simulate" real life military operations.

For instance, I use Microsoft Flight Simulator X, which is really not a commerical simulator. You cant use it for real life training or certification. However, bush pilots all the way up to commercial airline pilots use it for training. Why? Beause although its not FAA certificated, it does in fact "simulate aviation."

Contrast this with IL1946 which is looked at as a "game." However, it "simulates" flight physics extrmely realistically, even better than FSX, and I call it a simulator all the time.

The same with DCS which is a combat simulator made for desktop PC entertainment, but was orginally devolped as a A-10 simulator for the Indiana ANG. Another example is Full Spectrum Warrior which was devolped as a desktop simulator for Army NCOs/Officers but was released as a entertainment product and very much considered a game.

So yes, you are technically correct in that these are not labeled as simulators but rather games by the developers.... but I am referring to them as milsims because again, they attempt to "simulate" real life military operations accurately.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Burner

[portland]

-Burner

Yes, o.k. I understand what your saying and doing.

It was just the title and content of the video didn't quite ad-up. I do understand though that you were reviewing vanilla ai. Which is something that most mil/sim teams-groups will not use anyway, preferring alternative ai either by full conversion or smaller modification..

Thanks anyway.

--

[twcrash]

OK when I say the MILITARY USED DOOM it means THE MILITARY USED DOOM. It wasn't the company calling it a milsim. Same with Full Spectrum Warrior, First To Fight and a couple others. You may not want to acknowledge these were actual Military simulation (hence milsim) but the government did and they were YEARS before ArmA and OFP . Same with Canadian Forces Direct Action. It was built by the Canadian Army for the Canadian Army. I know because Seawwolves were testers for it when it was being put together. It actually won somekind of award from the Canadian Government I believe as well. Here is the announcement:

I am happy to announce the release of Canadian Forces: Direct Action. A FREE training tool for Military, Police and security organizations which has been developed by the Canadian Military, and has been currently been in use by the Canadian Forces as an urban Operations training tool.

The mod contains several levels recreating Canadian urban operation training centers to highly accurate detail. Candian Forces weapons, and uniforms are also available.

CF:DA Download can be found here: www.armyelearning.ca/cfda

In order to use CF:DA you must first obtain a copy of SWAT 4 gold, as CF:DA is a heavy Swat 4 modification. Details on how to purchase are available on the website. (The Swat 4 Gold is a product of a company called Vivendi (Sierra), and is not associated with CF:DA)

Here is a link to a story about Marine Doom:

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/a-budget-strapped-corps-once-tried-training-marines-with-doom-5429955706ca

Edited May 13, 2015 by twcrash

[portland]

-twcrash

If you believe the games in the video other than Arma 2, are military simulations, then that's fine with me.

In the military, when your sat down in front of a virtual military simulation, which will cover all military types, then its not Doom your going to be sat in front of or any modification of that, certainly not a serious military simulation.

Not that I was talking about Doom or any of the others you mention, only regards the ones seen in the video.

Just saying, that's all.

Edited May 13, 2015 by portland

[twcrash]

I am not sure how old you are, i am gonna assume semi young. Because when you dismiss everything that came prior to ArmA 2 as a milsim you are just ignorant of the facts that yes, at one time DOOM2 was modded for use in a milsim. Good or bad it was a milsim. Now you maybe in denial of that fact and thats ok. Alot of youngsters assume there was a black void prior to ArmA 2 and the military did use, well those old fashioned games but yeah they did. Rogue Spear was a milsim, yeah it was used for and by the US military. See Milsims don't just cover fancy graphics, at one point they were for training troops how to react to situations on the fly, How to deal with stress, how they communicated among themselves during the exercise.and alot of other things i am sure.

But here i made you a short but accurate manual on what a milsim was prior to ArmA 2. Again it is a start and not a complete list

Edited May 13, 2015 by twcrash

[portland]

63yrs old and used to train recruits on military simulations. I'm very familiar with BIS & its VBS training tools. That's why I am saying that Arma 2 is the closest you'll get to an actual military simulation. I say Arma 2 and pre Arma 2 titles above Arma 3, but only for certain criteria that Arma 3 lacks.

I didn't however read all of your post, because I can gauge from the first sentence the type of person you are where gaming is concerned. Also don't for one minute underestimate young people, the ones I had pleasure in training have been very intelligent and highly willing to learn.

But I'm happy to disagree.

[twcrash]

Well I stand corrected on the age thing of its the case and I was poking some fun at you but obviously it came off wrong so I apologize. As for games you're really leaving out alot of tools that were actually used. I think we are discussing 2 different things. Actual Military training tools versus games we think would be used for training but actually aren't.

[Burner]

Interesting for ARMA 3....

[Burner]

MP sessions are hard for me to join due to my work schedule. This video was shot at about
2:00 a.m. I saw a bunch of guys on and a few minutes later everyone was hitting the rack.
Anyway, hes a journal of the nights events fellas.

 

1. ARMA 3 AI seem to be actually stable now...as in they dont run, prone, crouch, sprint anymore while being engaged. They just get to a stable position and engage the target. Now I dont want them to be statues but I dont want them to be chipmunks either.
2. The AI seem to be using suppression, however, they just focus on the last known location of the target. For instance when I was in the building, they just shot at the door instead of lighting up the entire 2nd floor as soon as they lost sight. Effective suppression would target the door, windows, and random locations of the wall itself if penetrable. 
3. All in all AI seems much more believable in the open world, at least the squirrel mode has ceased.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Burner

[Jeza]

Nice stuff, re AI I still cannot stand the flinch they have when hit and go half into a death animation then flinch back to normal all within a second then stand still half the time after until you nail them. Urgh!

 

Granted though updates seem to be putting them in the right direction, but I would prefer they just flop when you hit them in the way they do VBS2/Armed Assault. 

[Burner]

 

(Video by EliteOps1 on YoutTube)  I agree, even though its limited, it looks believable. I think our MOD pack or something is interfering with hit animations. It looks like they have been electrocuted rather than shot. I really enjoy the death animations in Ghost Recon most of all.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Burner

[Rocky]

The see through tress video above is interesting. We had this issue in GRAW2 but nobody really talked about it, maybe because it was just a co-op issue that you really only noticed if you were playing alone. In GRAW 2 you could forget trees, the enemy could see right through buildings, follow your path, and be firing at your exit point before you even stepped out.

[nyleken]

Speaking of AI, do you guys think the Fox Engine would be suited for an ArmA-type game?

 

Played some MGSV and noticed that the AI can stack and clear buildings. In an open-world environment nonetheless.

[Burner]

Thank is some very impressive AI room clearing nyleken.  

Smooth Animations.....hope ARMA 5 looks like that one day.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Burner

[Burner]

[wombat50]

Nice video Burner. I have enjoyed the heck out of Worth A Buy since you posted one of his vids in the R6 Siege thread.