Is a Grief-Free Online Environment Really Possible?

[JohnTC02]

Just found this interesting article about the pitfalls of online gaming.

In an ideal world we should all be able to enjoy our games online without certain people doing their best to spoil it for us.

A few years ago when I was playing the first incarnation of COD and MoH I found it a reasonable experience, there wasn't that many "numpty's" going on the rampage teamkilling and shouting abuse over the coms, these days it's a different kettle of fish, reading though this article we now have so called players shouting racial abuse and foul language.

I have found this when playing GR:AW and GR:AW 2 online, why do people buy these games only to spoil it for others by acting like idiots when playing online.

I used to play rFactor (racing sim) online and had the same experience there, other "drivers" (for want of a better word) would do their very best to have you off the track, we used to have competitions with prizes for the best driver, even then there was a percentage which were only there to spoil it for others.

So, what's your experience of online game play, are you one of those that want to enjoy a realistic time playing or do you just do it for fun and don't care about realism.

Have a read then post you thoughts.

Growing up surrounded by my brother and a mess of loud and sometimes obnoxious friends, I was no stranger when it came to gaming and trash talking. Whether we were swapping one-shot kills in Goldeneye, making fun of each others' created characters in Wrestlemania 2000 or swapping insults during bouts of Bushido Blade, the smack we talked ran freely like milk and honey in the Promised Land. In my mind, this was just the way gaming was: friendly, fun and all in good sport. We dished out only what we could take, and only occasionally did the bad blood spill over into the real world, and usually it was the other way around.

My first extended stint into online gaming came with my late discovery of Counter-Strike my freshman year of college. What started as something just for pure fun soon grew into a relatively serious hobby. It was only when I dived in more deeply that I saw the gritty underbelly of the online world: griefing, racism, verbal threats and rage.

As much as I like to joke about some of these things, I really was astounded at this ugly side of human nature, which is obviously going to become more apparent the more people you throw into an anonymous environment. My first encounters with griefing and other things was in a Counter-Strike match, where a group of redneck-sounding guys were shouting racial epithets and slurs at anything and everything. After a shouting match between them and some other more vocal players in the server, the whole thing eventually degenerated into teamkilling and anger.

While we often joke about this kind of behavior, it really is disconcerting at best, and at worst horrid and sad. The recent dispute over the XBL ban of Black Ops players with swastika emblems only highlights that even nearly a decade later, we are still having the same issues when it comes to online gaming. And no, this isn't about XBox Live and the typical stereotypical labeling it gets when it comes to kids and other obnoxious online brats. One needs to look no further than the Serenity Now raid of the WoW funeral to know that these people come in all shapes, sizes and genre preferences.

My experience has taught me that these people are cross platform, and the problem is more widespread than just the one service. It's a bit dismissive to act like Microsoft's service is the only place that idiots congregate on the Internet, and a bit obtuse as well. Are there more idiots per capita on XBL? Probably so, but that's more likely due to the pool being larger. The bigger the area, the more idiots. It's statistics, really. I feel like anybody with a reasonable amount of time spent online can testify that trolls and griefers are anywhere and everywhere. They're climbing in our windows, snatching our fun up. HIDE YO KIDS.

Due to recent debacles like this, as well as many others, there are people out there calling for reform in the way that Microsoft polices its own service. But really, where does the responsibility ultimately fall, and is it being a bit too naive to assume that we can simply weed out every jerk out there that tries to use his anonymity to have fun at someone else's expense?

We could throw the blame on the publishers and developers, but how much manpower would it take to send that many "policemen" out onto the service, watching games and enforcing some kind of online law? Is this really where we want development budgets to go?

Another option would be to give the responsibility to the Microsofts and Sonys of the world, but even that carries with it a cost. As someone who dislikes paying to play online, I don't like the idea of XBL getting even more expensive, and Sony would most certainly have to start charging in order to put that many enforcers out there en masse as well, when you consider how many millions of online environments are ongoing at any given time.

Really, the closest thing I can imagine to this online world of altruism would be in well policed dedicated PC servers. These are owned and operated by individuals, companies or clans, and they carry with them their own sets of rules and standards that all people in the game must comply and adhere to. Some of these are more lax on the way they mete out punishments than others, but when you find one that works well, boy does it shine. The only problem is, the more people will say that this is totally free to do on PC, that's still just a lie. It might be free for you, but there is someone else paying to maintain and operate that server. It comes at a price for that person to have just the right online environment, and will if we want it to be more widespread in other places as well.

So what's the answer, then? Honestly, I have no clue. To me, it seems that the idea of some sort of gaming utopia is a far-fetched one at best, but then again I have a pretty dismal view of the way humans will treat one another when left to their own devices, especially when no clear punishment or discipline is at stake. But the more I see things like this go on, and the more I join online games only to hear some of this same idiocy, the more I wonder if it's too pie-in-the-sky to think that someday we'll have a perfect service without paying a dime more for it ourselves.

What do you guys think? Is it naive to think that some day, we'll have an online game that can rid itself of griefers? What was your first experience with griefing, and what are the things you hate the most when it comes to this kind of behavior in online games? Go!

Source.

[WytchDokta]

Hence why now I only play online with people who I know aren't going to ruin the experience for everyone else.

I've been booted many times from L4D game for perceived griefing. The fact of the matter is, I wasn't the one jerking around on any of the matches I got booted from. In fact, I was playing properly - looking out for other players, covering them when necessary, was waiting until everyone was ready before setting off crescendo events, was sticking with the team etc. And I get booted. Like one time in particular.... No Mercy campaign map 3. We got outside to the part when you need to activate the lift to get up onto the roof (the courtyard part where there's a petrol (gas) station). I hook right, climb up the dumpster and into the room above through the windows (directly next to the petrol (gas) station), to check if there was weapons there which there normally is. As I did so, the only two remaining teammates set off the lift and just stood there, a little in front of it. They both had the highest kill counts so the infected were concentrating on them, not on me in my secure position (that's right, the less infected you kill, the less they focus on attacking you.) They get hit hard. Very hard. You would have thought they would back up against the wall so they only have to cover a 180 degree base of fire rather than 360 degree. I'm doing what I can on overwatch from my position, headshotting distant infected nearing them. Always I'm very careful about placement of my shots, I'm very careful to NOT cause friendly fire by my own weapons. A Smoker grabs one of them. I get a visual, and pop his head with a single shot from the sniper rifle. The guy next to him shot a Boomer at point blank range, which is not a good idea. That guy's taking a pounding and then the other gets jumped by a Hunter. Again, I save their asses here. Next thing, the guy who sets off the Boomer is incapped and I get booted with a message saying about griefing. WTH? I was providing sniper cover/overwatch from a secure base of fire AND saved both of their asses from special infected two times each WITHOUT incurring any friendly fire. So I wasn't sticking with the team but WTH? Call me stupid for that but atleast I used my head to locate a position which I could only be attacked from one angle, less than 180 degrees the Infected could attack me from, they choose to be out in the open where they both had to cover a 360 degree angle. I even advised them to come to my position and set up a base of fire there instead before they set off the lift.

You gotta love L4D for confronting people about blatantly griefing. It causes them to instantly enter deathmatch mode whereby they start shooting up all the other players rather than the Infected.

Edited December 1, 2010 by WytchDokta

[WhiteKnight77]

I will say it all depends on who you play with. We always had good times, without griefers as it was a semi private server, mine. Sure, I posted the IP here at GR.net, and it could be read by anyone along with anyone using GameSpy Arcade, but no one from GS seemed to join really. Now and again, we had the occasionally had TKs, but it was amongst friends and not by any unknowns.

I also think that griefers move on to more popular games after a time. I played on a server last year where there were no TKs and everyone seemed to get along.

[WytchDokta]

If we're talking incurring friendly fire/TK'ing as a form of griefing, does it take into account people (for want of better word) who lack concept of positional awareness? Like for example, teammates crossing your line of fire as you are shooting. This has happened to me on many occassions and annoys the hell out of me. What part of don't run into some-one's line of fire when they are shooting is so difficult to understand? I can sympathise (marginally) if you crouch in my line of fire, then I can stand and shoot over your head (yes 'over your head ', not 'at the back of your head' like most people).

[JohnTC02]

Teamkilling is very annoying, sometimes it's just a pure accident, I know I've done it myself on a few occasions but there is always that small minority (sometimes not so small) that do it just for the hell of it.

When I do play online (which isn't that often these days) I like to have a group of people that I know are going to play fairly and stick to the rules, I suppose the only answer is to have a locked server so only people you trust will have the password.

[WhiteKnight77]

No, we are not talking about the odd bit of friendly fire or TKs that happen amongst friends as they play together, we are talking about those who purposely join a server just to create havoc amongst those who are trying to enjoy a game. I remember one time where I shot Sart on purpose, not as a way to create havoc or be an ass, but to get him to settle down (he loved MGs big time) and he got the point.

I know we all have seen or heard of those idiots who go out of their way to be an ass and grief a server (this includes using cheats) and I do not see how anyone can enjoy themselves playing that way.

[WytchDokta]

Teamkilling is very annoying, sometimes it's just a pure accident

I believe we've all done this. Things can get confusing in the heat of battle, and when the fighting is at close range and the adrenaline is going, it can mar your target identification. Bang, you blasted down a teammate who was coming up behind you to support you. Of course, you could then counter argue that the teammate did not announce he was coming up behind you to support you.

Also, another thing perceived as griefing: leaving temmates behind. Now, sometimes there is no choice whatsoever. Your teammate is incapped, you go across to revive him only to find a group of enemies that outnumber and outgun you are approaching your incapped teammate. So you have a choice: Get killed during the revive teammates animation; or fall back to a secure position and take down the enemies (by which time your teammate has probably bled out). The point I'm trying to make is, depending on the situation it's sometimes best to leave a teammates to their fate or risk getting the half the team killed trying to rescue him - I quote the sniper (Jackson?) from Saving Private Ryan: "a serious misallocation of military resources"

You know you just love when a lone griefer leaves the rest of the team at the start of game and goes off on his own. Then, when he's a considerable distance ahead of the rest of the team, he gets incapped and expects you all to haul ass across half the map to revive him (he's so far ahead that he would bleed out by the time you get there)

[CkZWarlord]

Growing up surrounded by my brother and a mess of loud and sometimes obnoxious friends, I was no stranger when it came to gaming and trash talking. Whether we were swapping one-shot kills in Goldeneye, making fun of each others' created characters in Wrestlemania 2000 or swapping insults during bouts of Bushido Blade, the smack we talked ran freely like milk and honey in the Promised Land. In my mind, this was just the way gaming was: friendly, fun and all in good sport. We dished out only what we could take, and only occasionally did the bad blood spill over into the real world, and usually it was the other way around.

Sounds familiar.

My first extended stint into online gaming came with my late discovery of Counter-Strike my freshman year of college. What started as something just for pure fun soon grew into a relatively serious hobby. It was only when I dived in more deeply that I saw the gritty underbelly of the online world: griefing, racism, verbal threats and rage.

Having gamed online in highly competative enviroments for well over a decade (the first game that I played online and competatively was StarCraft), I can easily say this guy is full of crap. The perceived problem isn't nearly as big as this guy is making it out to be.

As much as I like to joke about some of these things, I really was astounded at this ugly side of human nature, which is obviously going to become more apparent the more people you throw into an anonymous environment. My first encounters with griefing and other things was in a Counter-Strike match, where a group of redneck-sounding guys were shouting racial epithets and slurs at anything and everything. After a shouting match between them and some other more vocal players in the server, the whole thing eventually degenerated into teamkilling and anger.

It happens, so what?

While we often joke about this kind of behavior, it really is disconcerting at best, and at worst horrid and sad. The recent dispute over the XBL ban of Black Ops players with swastika emblems only highlights that even nearly a decade later, we are still having the same issues when it comes to online gaming. And no, this isn't about XBox Live and the typical stereotypical labeling it gets when it comes to kids and other obnoxious online brats. One needs to look no further than the Serenity Now raid of the WoW funeral to know that these people come in all shapes, sizes and genre preferences.

Now of course we are all familiar with the nazi swastika. But I wonder wether or not this guy is aware of other meanings of the swastika as for example in Buddism or the Chinese version of the Red Cross, the Red Swastika. Check it out on Wikipedia, I'm sure you will be able to find out tons on the meaning of the swastika symbol. But even if the case is that a player intends to use the nazi-swastika, that is their choice. Not yours. You do not have a right to not be offended.

Now, here is my opinion on using nazi-symbolism in gaming: I don't give a crap. The most important thing about World War 2 is that we never forget it's horrors. That being said, it was 70 years ago. Grow up and get over yourself. Someone wearing a swastika symbol in a game is not the same thing them saying "What the nazi's did was a good thing" or whatever else to that extend.

My experience has taught me that these people are cross platform, and the problem is more widespread than just the one service. It's a bit dismissive to act like Microsoft's service is the only place that idiots congregate on the Internet, and a bit obtuse as well. Are there more idiots per capita on XBL? Probably so, but that's more likely due to the pool being larger. The bigger the area, the more idiots. It's statistics, really. I feel like anybody with a reasonable amount of time spent online can testify that trolls and griefers are anywhere and everywhere. They're climbing in our windows, snatching our fun up. HIDE YO KIDS.

What? This guy seriously expected that people who use strong/foul language couldn't afford more than one gaming device? That is just ridiculous. But that is besides the point. It seems to me that whoever wrote this is convinced that a higher percentage of gamers are idiots, rather than a high percentage of IRL people (I know, I know, just trying to make it clear). Which, IMHO, is weird considering the people that keep getting elected...

Due to recent debacles like this, as well as many others, there are people out there calling for reform in the way that Microsoft polices its own service. But really, where does the responsibility ultimately fall, and is it being a bit too naive to assume that we can simply weed out every jerk out there that tries to use his anonymity to have fun at someone else's expense?

The responsibility falls upon yourself. It is first and foremost your responsibility to not let behavior get to you. Now that last line I only know about in the context of when someone makes fun of someone else, if that is the case here... grow a pair... otherwise... grow a pair...

We could throw the blame on the publishers and developers, but how much manpower would it take to send that many "policemen" out onto the service, watching games and enforcing some kind of online law? Is this really where we want development budgets to go?

No, and therefore you need to quit being a whiny little ######, grow up and deffinately need to get off your high horse.

Another option would be to give the responsibility to the Microsofts and Sonys of the world, but even that carries with it a cost. As someone who dislikes paying to play online, I don't like the idea of XBL getting even more expensive, and Sony would most certainly have to start charging in order to put that many enforcers out there en masse as well, when you consider how many millions of online environments are ongoing at any given time.

They won't simply because it can't be done. Way too much data. Perhaps some automated features, but that'll be it.

Really, the closest thing I can imagine to this online world of altruism would be in well policed dedicated PC servers. These are owned and operated by individuals, companies or clans, and they carry with them their own sets of rules and standards that all people in the game must comply and adhere to. Some of these are more lax on the way they mete out punishments than others, but when you find one that works well, boy does it shine. The only problem is, the more people will say that this is totally free to do on PC, that's still just a lie. It might be free for you, but there is someone else paying to maintain and operate that server. It comes at a price for that person to have just the right online environment, and will if we want it to be more widespread in other places as well.

And that is the price you will have to pay if that is so important to you, because I don't care and I don't want to pay for it just because people like the author of this horrendous hippy-dippy-doo treehugger bullcrap seemingly can't handle "bad words".

So what's the answer, then? Honestly, I have no clue. To me, it seems that the idea of some sort of gaming utopia is a far-fetched one at best, but then again I have a pretty dismal view of the way humans will treat one another when left to their own devices, especially when no clear punishment or discipline is at stake. But the more I see things like this go on, and the more I join online games only to hear some of this same idiocy, the more I wonder if it's too pie-in-the-sky to think that someday we'll have a perfect service without paying a dime more for it ourselves.

Nope, it is not far-fetched. It is a dream. It will *NEVER* happen. Nobody wants to pay for that? Then the only conclusion you can draw is that nobody cares (enough). I for one don't.

What do you guys think? Is it naive to think that some day, we'll have an online game that can rid itself of griefers? What was your first experience with griefing, and what are the things you hate the most when it comes to this kind of behavior in online games? Go!

Nope, no griefing will never happen because some of us actually like it that way. I for one do. It feels good to let go of all bullcrap social conventions every now and again. If you don't want that, then get your own dedicated server and lay down the law, but in mine I couldn't care less. You want to curse? Go ahead. You want to utter racial slurs? Go ahead. It is not my reputation that will be damaged by it.

Well, that is my opinion. It basically boils down to "don't you dare try to tell me or others for that matter what they can and can't say". You do not have the right to not be offended, because if you did: I am offended every day by the idiocy of organized religion. I am offended every day by enviromentalist (the CO2-stories are just that, stories. They have no basis in science and even if they did: there is nothing we can do about it.). I am offended every day by development aid organizations (Take Ghana for example: everyone there has mobile phone but no food... weird huh). I am offended by mobile phone companies who seem to be trying to tell me that it is perfectly normal that any given mobile phone has a lifetime 18 months. We are all offended by different things and there is no way to make everyone happy. But "bad words" is an extremely silly thing to be offended by.

[ApexMods]

Is a Grief-Free Online Environment Really Possible?

This can be answered by considering the answer to this question:

Is a Grief-Free Environment Possible?

Short answer: Nope.