Groin Pat down required to fly.

[Parabellum]

Memo to President Obama: Teenage girls and little boys and retired white teachers aren't the people who've been trying to blow up airplanes. /eyeroll

The people trying to blow up planes are Muslims of Middle Eastern descent. Want to thwart terrorism? Start checking everyone that fits that profile. Start with people coming from Middle Eastern countries....if we're serious about security, then we'll tackle the source of the problems. But of course, the American government wouldn't want to offend Muslims everywhere by profiling, so we'll search everyone else.

Para, why don't you just say you're all for racial profiling? It'll save you a lot of time typing.

Here's an article about the politics and big business behind the kit. No surprises that L3 are involved. Now there's a company that's been happy since 9/11.

USA Today.

DS

Saying "I'm all for racial profiling" doesn't explain the rationale behind the thought, DS. Granted, some people will get their panties in a twist at the mere mention of racial profiling, because they don't stop to think about what profiling really is, and why it works. The article you posted is certainly telling, on that latter subject. How often is the practical, effective solution overlooked, because the right person (or company) knows whom to pay off?

Edited November 29, 2010 by Parabellum

[Ruin]

My issue is two-fold:

First, with a warrant in hand, I don't mind a cop searching my house. Indeed, if I'm stupid enough to have something in plain sight to trigger a "probable cause" search, well, I had that coming. Do you honestly want to tell me choosing to fly is probable cause? If so, why aren't the searches being performed by law enforcement officers? That is, personnel that society at large specifically licenses to enforce laws? Oh, right, because that would cost too much. And man, the only thing I hate worse than terrorists on planes is higher taxes! Without law enforcement personnel to perform these searches (and therefore with proper constitutional protections in place), these searches are illegal. PERIOD. You can't ask to have a lawyer present. No judge in the country will uphold the idea that buying a plane ticket is probable cause for being searched. El Al has the right idea when it comes to screenings, but they also do it in such a way that actually works (by paying for the training of the people to the point that they recognize suspicious behaviors, not just men in turbans) and in a way that respects the rights of those being interrogated.

Second, we've already seen a man who found out after he entered the line that the TSA's website was incorrect and that it wouldn't just be metal detectors and x-rays today. He chose not to fly (as others have suggested), only to find out that once you've started the process, you must finish it or face an $11,000 civil suit. I think saying that buying a plane ticket gives the authorities probable cause to do an invasive search or put you through a machine that has a high enough radiation dosage that those recovering from radiation treatments are advised to avoid it, that's a very dangerous precedent.

I understand your argument, but again this assumes that flying is a right, not a privilege, which is (in my opinion) wrong. Flying is a luxury good. It's a commodity. It does not fall under the same protections as normal civil liberties. Like I said before, someone ELECTS to fly. It is not forced upon them, it is not a standard of life (like having a home is - in regards to your warrant example), it is a luxury. When I can't afford to fly, I drive. When I can't afford to fly, I don't take a vacation. When I can't afford to fly, I either find another way to my destination or I simply don't go. For those who whine "I fly for business" well either making money at your destination is worth the security efforts or you find a new way to get there.

My issue is the "handout" mentality America has. People forget that flying is not a right, it does not fall under the same constitutional protections as other basic right. When you purchase that ticket you agree to, and purchase, your own warrant of probable cause - if that's how you want to see it.

In regards to "profiling": That's a temporary fix. Once the profile is established, it doesn't take long for terrorists to work around it. We're complacent. And as my chain of command loved to remind me (as they stood outside the FOB in a boonie cap, not a kevlar): complacency kills. As The Unit: Season 2 Epidosde: Manhunt likes to remind us... anyone is a terrorist. Even the blonde all American girl next door. Oh, and that guy Timothy McVeigh reminded us of that too. Terrorism is an idea, not a race. We're not Nazis. We can't strap a band on someone and shout "terrorist!" and throw them in prison somewhere. No, to be a terrorist you have to attempt a terrorist act. There's a reason the Portland bomber was allowed to get as far as he did and the sting took months. The ways terrorists can kill innocents is limited only to their imagination. We like to believe this always happens abroad, but it doesn't. The reason recent attempts on airlines have been abroad is because their security is lax. We need to get other countries on board with us. The problem is they don't have the stones to take the hard right over the easy wrong.

Then again, I'm sure with enough bitching and whining we'll do the same thing. American's don't like war in their face or on their ground. It's OK to fight [Arab] in Iraq, but by god I don't want to see or hear about it. I'm too squeamish.

[petsfed]

Clearly you didn't, so i'll remove the embroidery and just leave you the skeleton:

Buying a plane ticket is not probable cause for a search. Probable cause requires that the agent performing the search has probable cause to believe a crime has been comitted.

Second, we've already seen people decide to decline their flying priveleges and have faced a civil suit for not going through security.

On an unrelated note, your argument that profiling doesn't work because they'll figure it out is akin to saying that counter-espionage doesn't work because tradecraft is always improving. We pay security contractors millions to find the holes in the system. You think that would change if we added profiling to the toolbox? Its not like the army's tactics have stayed the same since napoleon.

Edited November 30, 2010 by petsfed

[Rocky]

The world is officially running out of smart people.

TSA holds new mother over breast milk.

[WhiteKnight77]

The web is abuzz over this episode and I even sent letters to my representatives in Congress about this along with the TSA. When the agents and managers start making up their own rules and look to exact revenge for being reported for not following the TSAs own rules, then there is a problem. I hope those involved are disciplined one way or another.

[Ruin]

Apparently this happened back in February. I'm surprised MSM hasn't really grabbed this and run with it. This is one of those incidents of unprofessionalism and an overstepping of powers that must be addressed. The TSA needs a new face to the public, and things like this won't get them there.

Stacey Armato's Personal Account

Petsfed, I do understand. Even with the skeleton I think we're talking around each other, not to each other. I also never said it doesn't work. It does work. But as I said above it's a "temporary fix."

[firefly2442]

5) There is no way to save or transmit images that are taken.

Not true according to this article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/08/04/2010-08-04_feds_admit_they_stored_body_scanner_images_despite_tsa_claim_the_images_cannot_b.html