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Los Mochis


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1. Thanks for the info...I realized a couple times before that my client crashed when I switch over to single fire for smooth head shots. Now I remember and now I know why :angry: didn't think it's a bug!

2 . I know that I have to shoot the pilot but in this mission it took me 3-5 shoots each havoc but like I said, I had no drink at this time :rocky:

3. May you missunderstood, in all the missions we have played we had to hold the X button to complete the progress bar.

This time with the sand bags at Adat A or at the small gate Erika just hit it shortly by accident but the progress bar keeps going. I have seen that at the second time when she released the x button but the progress bar keeps going! She said that's funny but may our system makes some curios things? So is that normal in some cases or not normal?

Do not shoot your ride home, that's what I learned too :whistle:

Thanks,

Klaus&Erika

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Hi kaapo,

Erika just hit it shortly by accident but the progress bar keeps going. I have seen that at the second time when she released the x button but the progress bar keeps going! She said that's funny but may our system makes some curios things? So is that normal in some cases or not normal?

It's normal when you press and release "x" progres bar of planting C4 will keep going it should be normal in all cases if you will not moving to fast in this moment. That why you can C4ing fast moving tanks- well at least few of them ;)

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Dear John,

i played the map several times. Most with guys like triplex and/or ebk and/or dareckistich.

In the normal multiplayer modus its very hard and a real challenge. I enjoyed it much, imho it is a real great map.

But when I tried your special “multiplayer modus as single player” there is a problem.

Might be that there is a different way of activation between the beginning and later triggers.

The start is as usual, but beginning near the object “intel” the AI gets totally dump.

I went from church a bit to north than back to c4 the first tank. Then back to the Adadt in North blow him and the north to intel. Then I stopped cause the tangos spawn but they are like ducks. You can stand in front of them and shoot them. No reaction. That was on the server of WBGRon. A day before I did the same on the GE server and had the same problem. But I do not know if it would go on like that cause Triplex joined. And Triplex prefers the south way and for not to split and because he is the better player I joined him.

In south it was better, but it seems to me not so good as normal with more players.

Might be that happens only it you take the north way and the trigger zones make the difference. I do not know. But I hope you find a solution on an easy way.

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Dear John,

i played the map several times. Most with guys like triplex and/or ebk and/or dareckistich.

In the normal multiplayer modus its very hard and a real challenge. I enjoyed it much, imho it is a real great map.

But when I tried your special "multiplayer modus as single player" there is a problem.

Might be that there is a different way of activation between the beginning and later triggers.

The start is as usual, but beginning near the object "intel" the AI gets totally dump.

I went from church a bit to north than back to c4 the first tank. Then back to the Adadt in North blow him and the north to intel. Then I stopped cause the tangos spawn but they are like ducks. You can stand in front of them and shoot them. No reaction. That was on the server of WBGRon. A day before I did the same on the GE server and had the same problem. But I do not know if it would go on like that cause Triplex joined. And Triplex prefers the south way and for not to split and because he is the better player I joined him.

In south it was better, but it seems to me not so good as normal with more players.

Might be that happens only it you take the north way and the trigger zones make the difference. I do not know. But I hope you find a solution on an easy way.

Hi JFK,

This was talked about the in earlier posts and when a few of us were alpha testing. If too many triggers are set off at once then you'll ge the dump AI effect!

This is a nice map with but its going to be one of those maps, where really, you can only have around 8 players, all on some sort of communication like TS3 or ventrillo and will have to work as a team and in CQB configuration etc. You can't have players all running off in different directions otherwise the latter will happen, you'll end up with loads of triggers going off and the server nor been able to handle all the info of ever AI and thus you get dumb AI.

I used to play ArmA 2 and I'd play as a team working closely with my friends on TS, we would never run off and try assaulting other position or targets until we as a team had completed one particular target. We need gamers who play as a team and disregard who has the most kills and least deaths. I'm going off topic here but I think scoring should only be used in clan matches and for TDM/DM games!

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You will find the "dumb" AI problem on most of the open types of missions where all the objectives are available although the problem does seem worse on this mission.

JFK, the triggers are the same whether you play the multiplayer mode on your own or with other players, from your post it seems like you were going back and forth around the map, if you do not clear each area of AI as you proceed the you will be spawning multiple AI which will cause the dumb AI that you noticed.

The best way to play these types of missions is to ensure that you have cleared a particular area before moving on, after you destroy the tank have a scout around to see if there are any AI in the vicinity, this will help to keep the amount of active AI down to a minimum.

This is a completely new type of mission for GRAW2 so the first one won't be perfect, I did spawn around 30 AI (in multiplayer mode) at each trigger which is more than I usually use, plus some of them are quite close together so this is why you are seeing the dumb AI. I wanted to get as many AI as I could on this map to see how the different modes play out.

I'm in the process of making my next map using the new type of mission, the new one should be an improvement on Los Mochis as I have taken on board all of your comments so please bear with me, we will get this "adaptive" mode of play working as it should.

Many thanks,

John

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Well John,

I played this map again on my own for a while and then a guy called Trueled jumped on my server followed by =[GE]=Triplex a while later.

We had a great game until I crashed out but we had nearly finished though.

The map worked really well as we played as team, none of us ran off in many directions and this in turn helped to keep trigger activation down to a minimum, but we still encountered a small pocket of dumb AI south west of the church, starting point close to the comms tower.

No lag was reported, no texture errors were reported. all though the HAVOCs are pain because at one point we triggered 3 triggers we launched 2 helis and a group of AI which got a little annoying.

Apart from that all was good!

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John,

today we did the mission again using the same way to complete the objectives and when we where at the area we crashed last time we had no problem this time. Erika had 1 normal "hold_weapon in type" crash and I had a access violation crash with 3 question marks but it came up at the same time I hit the re-load button. Tomorrow we will play it again using a different way.

This time we need to say again that it is a very nice map/mission. We like it very much. Also the havocs are great and we just had a frame drop to 23-24 frames when we was in front of supplies. This was for a very short period and we had to move very slowly anyway!

I have seen always a MP trigger after the first trigger so for us on LAN only it worked very well.

One small IQ problem I need to say. At the extraction we was very busy and when Erika said that she could not shoot the stupid guy on top of the vehicle, I shoot him too :rofl:

He was lucky that he is still alive :lol:

Thanks for this nice mission! :thumbsup:

Erika&Klaus

...and shame on us that we did not know the x-button thing. We always thought that we need to hold it down until the progress bar is filled up :(

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Thank again for the feedback.

The hold weapon crash is just a normal GRAW2 thing so there's not a lot we can do about that.

Kaapo, you can shoot the pickup crew all you like as they are set to max health, in the final version I will add some script so that if you destroy the pickup the game will end, a few testers reported that if the pickup is destroyed then you can't finish the mission, this will be a problem if the mission is part of your map rotation.

Cheers, :thumbsup:

John

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Well John since been a Beta tester this has been the most fun map to test. Like many others here, we don't see theres much more you can do to improve thsi map so I think its ready for the wild Public's attention!:devil:

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Just for your info, this morning I had the idea to look at the servers crashlog. Smart, or?

There was only 1 crash logged which was the one when we used Mexbob Journalist mission last time.

From the 6. June was nothing in there so may the server did not crashed but restarted the map BECAUSE both clients crashed at almost the same time( Unhandled exception - access violation)?

May we never see this again!

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Hi kaapo,

Sorry I think I’m not follow you and I could understood something wrong (not well English), but if you have only two clients in LAN and they’re both get out from the server (crash for example) this is rather normal when you’re logg in again map is starting from the beginning. It’s that what you’re trying to say or I was read something wrong again?

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Hi John and Daro48,

yes, what I want to say is that not the server crashed.

Crash log was almost empty ( just 1crash from Mexbob Journalist mission)

First client crashed and while first client reloading the mission the second client crashed.

There was a couple seconds where both clients was gone and yes, that's why the server did a restart.

So again, this means not the server crashed, just both clients crashed (access-violation).

Sorry but at the first time I did not think about that.

Today we complete it one more time and without any issues! :yes:

Oh, the only thing I don't like is the ride out! Erika is getting always the front seat and I need to take the load area for the ride :FIREdevil:

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Hey there John,

Well, we're back!!!

Tested out the map tonight and ran across some real strange problems. Four of us were testing and all was going well until the Havocs started coming in. We had a lot of sleeping AI all over. Three of us had gone to the right and one went to the left from the church at the original spawn. All of the AI in the depot were sleeping except for one. We decided to regroup and tackle one objective at a time and slowly the AI started to come alive or catchup. According to Bogie looks like to AI graph may have some issues as we were seeing AI running in place. I actually saw one running at a wall out side the Depot. Bogie may report more on this!!!!

When we got to the ending one or two of us got into the pickup truck and we were shot and the game ended. Not sure if that was the actual ending but it seemed rather abrupt compared to your usual ending. Maybe it was becasue we all died.

Other than that the map was excellent. nice job on the layout and again, it is really nice to see a change of scenery!! Great job as always!!! :thumbsup:

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I would agree with everything that Viper says. To elaborate about the AI Graph, it looked as though a few AI were heading in the right direction, then just took a header into the wall and kept trying to run. This, in the past, indicated to me that a building, wall, prop, etc may have been placed after the AI Graph was generated.

The sleeping AI that I found (quite a few in the supply\vehicle depot) they were still shooting at me, but I had to be directly in front of them. As Viper stated, this occured probably because we expaned out to cover our zones and hit too many triggers with the Havocs - as early on it seemed like we had 2 havocs on the map.

Ditto on the ending. We were actually mentally preparing for a long extraction and it seemed like it just abruptly ended after I was shot... I mean, who could really go on after Bogie is shot, right :D

BTW Absolutly loved your Salazar and the parking garage. I've had that prop in my hip pocket for a while, just haven't had the opportunity or the map to place it. You did an exceptional job.

Later,

Bogie

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Hi Viper/Bogie,

Thanks for you feedback, much appreciated.

The "sleeping" AI were mentioned during alpha testing, I think that I have checked about every inch of the AI Graph but up to now I can't find anything wrong with it, as you mention they still seem quite alert but refuse to move, I will take another look but I don't see what else I can do.

I think you do the same here Bogie, when generating the AI Graph I will raise all doors and barriers that will be opened/destroyed during the mission, I will then make sure the graph links up through the doorways and then generate the AI Graph and coverpoints, once that is done I will lower all doors/barriers to their correct position which will keep the AI Graph as one connected unit, I've never had any problems doing it this way in the past.

Regarding the pickup at extraction, I posted the question in the forums a while back asking if players wanted to see these vehicles in the mission, some did and some said that they often get left behind when the pickups drove off so my solution was to have one player enter the vehicle to complete the mission.

I will take a good look at the AI Graph again and also check the AI patrols to make sure they are all ok, if there is nothing wrong here I don't know what else to do with it, maybe it's just one of those things, I think I recall this happening on other missions but there was no fix found for this problem.

Other than that I think this is about done so I may as well get the mission released, what do you all think?

BTW Bogie, you mention that you haven't had the chance to use the parking garage in a mission as yet, does this mean you intend to make some more by any chance. :yes::notworthy:

Cheers,

John

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Regarding the pickup at extraction, I posted the question in the forums a while back asking if players wanted to see these vehicles in the mission, some did and some said that they often get left behind when the pickups drove off so my solution was to have one player enter the vehicle to complete the mission.

...

BTW Bogie, you mention that you haven't had the chance to use the parking garage in a mission as yet, does this mean you intend to make some more by any chance.

...

With 4 of us playing at the time of extraction, there were still a few enemy AI around. Actually, we started shooting at the vehicle as our alert levels were high until someone stated "Hey, that's our truck". So apparently, someone entered the vehicle to end the game.

Perhaps it is just a timing issue with the truck. This is one of those subjective questions on when the vehicle should arrive to allow extraction, especially since you can have anywhere from 1-14+ coop players. My initial thoughts would be to trigger the truck after a certain amount of AI at the extraction point have been eliminated. Not sure of how many AI are at this section, but maybe around 2/3rs - 4/5ths of the AI are killed would trigger the truck to it's final stop with that NARCOM of the truck driver stating "Hang on, just a little while longer, Captain" for an audible prompt to make the teams aware. I know it's beta, so you probably haven't gotten to the NARCOM point, but these are just my thoughts.

As far as making more missions, we'll see. I did look at a few of the maps that I have had just to see where they stand and what level of work needs to be completed.

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The narcom you mention is already in there, maybe it could have played at a better time though.

I'm now in the process of getting this released, I have tweaked the AI Graph a little but I don't think it will make much difference to the sleepy AI, oh well!

At the extraction there are only 8 AI but I have changed the code as you suggested so the pickup will not move until 6 AI have been killed plus if you enter or destroy the pickup the mission will still end.

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John,

As you mentioned, you are probably towards the point of releasing this map. I believe we can agree that the reason for the sleeping AI is becasue too many of them are chomping on the existing resources. I have to say that on some of the AI, I would stand in front of them and they would not shoot at me. So of them did, but I am not sure if that was because the game was catching up to the point we were at.

Because GRAW2 official game scenario was to play a more linear scenario, we are running into these type of issue when you expose all of the objectives at one time. Couple this with other objects like tanks and helicopters, it just pushes it over the top!! I remember Bogie having an issue similar to this on one of his maps and he had to remove the havocs becasue of the resource intensity.

When we get to large maps like this and other maybe it might be best to expose the objectives in stages. I know people like the openness of the objective elimination, but I believe we are reaching the limitation of the game code. Thus a work around to go back towards the original theme. Exposing the objectives in a control staging might be the solution. To some degree you have already been doing this on your other maps. First you eliminate all the threats and objectives, then you go to the extraction stage. The key is to section the map and open all the objectives in that section. Maybe three or four. So if the Havoc comes out it only has to deal and monitor the Ghosts in that section only and not the whole map. This may minimize the sleeping AI and most assuredly enforce that all Ghost players must operate as a tactical team, which I believe was the original concept in GRAW2. I am not a map developer, so defer to you and Bogie if this makes sense.

I know that you are pretty much to the end on this map and ready to release. But it kinda puts a damper on the difficulty when the game becomes more of a turkey shoot rather then a challenging threat elimination.

Just my two cents... :whistle:

Well maybe 4 cents :blush:

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Hello everyone,

May I put some words?

Yes, sleeping AI in depot, I’ve mention it already and this is really worth of discuss, but:

Perhaps it is just a timing issue with the truck. This is one of those subjective questions on when the vehicle should arrive to allow extraction, especially since you can have anywhere from 1-14+ coop players. My initial thoughts would be to trigger the truck after a certain amount of AI at the extraction point have been eliminated

Ladies, please! What a different what Ghosts will go away and when it will come? We have to kill everyone to reach extraction point? Who said that? I don’t know if you remember GRAW 1 and famous ZULU point? Long story in short, doesn’t matter if you are on the beginning of the map or near ZULU one player reach point and mission is complete. If we get back in time a little more to Ghost Recon, we can remember that map can end when “No resistance remains”. Is that is worth of consider to? Maybe we should force guy on truck near mg to use it and to kill this annoying AIs?

When we get to large maps like this and other maybe it might be best to expose the objectives in stages. I know people like the openness of the objective elimination, but I believe we are reaching the limitation of the game code. Thus a work around to go back towards the original theme. Exposing the objectives in a control staging might be the solution. To some degree you have already been doing this on your other maps. First you eliminate all the threats and objectives, then you go to the extraction stage.

Yes, it’s good solution- only one way to get the target. As you mentioned:

Because GRAW2 official game scenario was to play a more linear scenario,

And that is true, but we have to remember one thing. In the game we have usually four peoples in team it’s a good solution for team playing and linear conception of the game, but here are servers up to 32 players, not computers AI just intelligent players. How can you imagine 12+ players going to one, for example, depot point? 12 players 4 in team it’s 3 teams to one target? It’s a little too much for me :/.

And at the end: I’m not map creator or scripting coder for this game, I’m just player, who play in GR since it’s show up, so everything what I said is from simply player perspective not code guru, because all yours (Jogn and Bogie) sweat and tears in programming and graphic making process is for us- simply players :rolleyes: .

Cheers, Daro.

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Daro, you may have been a little angry when you wrote your post or English may not be your first language. It is a little hard to understand your post, but I will take a stab at responding to some of your comments. Please don't take offense if I post something critical. It is more constructive.

Hello everyone,

May I put some words?

Yes, sleeping AI in depot, I’ve mention it already and this is really worth of discuss, but:

My post on sleeping AI was not meant to deter from your original post. This was the first time we had tested this map and we placed our findings. There will be times that we will post similar issues as found with other testers

Ladies, please! What a different what Ghosts will go away and when it will come? We have to kill everyone to reach extraction point? Who said that? I don’t know if you remember GRAW 1 and famous ZULU point? Long story in short, doesn’t matter if you are on the beginning of the map or near ZULU one player reach point and mission is complete. If we get back in time a little more to Ghost Recon, we can remember that map can end when “No resistance remains”. Is that is worth of consider to? Maybe we should force guy on truck near mg to use it and to kill this annoying AIs?

I believe that all the ghosts should be at the extraction point to end the game. The "No man left behind" code. As far as killing all the AI on the map, I don't think that is necessary. However, remember any AI remaining alive will take up resources thus potentially creating the lagging/sleeping AI effect. There is always going to be a percentage or overhead to deal with in this case. The trick is to mitigate this overhead. Furthermore, the original GRAW2 coop games never had the amount of AI's that our current esteemed script makers are putting in. Again, GRAW2 was never really made to handle this complexity. The script makers have ingeniously found a way to enhance the game play at our requests but at a cost.

Because GRAW2 official game scenario was to play a more linear scenario,

And that is true, but we have to remember one thing. In the game we have usually four peoples in team it’s a good solution for team playing and linear conception of the game, but here are servers up to 32 players, not computers AI just intelligent players. How can you imagine 12+ players going to one, for example, depot point? 12 players 4 in team it’s 3 teams to one target? It’s a little too much for me :/.

And at the end: I’m not map creator or scripting coder for this game, I’m just player, who play in GR since it’s show up, so everything what I said is from simply player perspective not code guru, because all yours (Jogn and Bogie) sweat and tears in programming and graphic making process is for us- simply players :rolleyes: .

Cheers, Daro.

Yes, you are correct. Having several players going after one single objective may not appear to be a good solution. However, you would normally canvas the small section to make sure that threats that would eliminate your primary team are eliminated. Furthermore, my suggestion was to have several objectives in one section thus allowing a 12 player or 3 teams of four to complete the 1st mission section. I just made a suggestion that we follow a more linear or shall I say hybrid linear concept rather than opening up all the objectives setting off triggers everywhere!!! As far as 32 player servers, I really don't think GRAW2 would do to well with that on COOP maps. As far as TvT, Recon, Siege and Hamburger hill maps, there is very little or no scripting involved.

Again, if i have in anyway misunderstood you, my apologize in advance...

Thanks!!

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Thanks again for all the feedback, if you want to continue this discussion then you can post your comments on this mission in the release thread.

Beta Phase concluded,

Thanks to all the beta testers that have contributed to the release.

Link to the public release thread:

Los Mochis.

John

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