JTF-2 Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 (edited) i wanted to make a few more sniper rifles, but then realized i don't know of many. Which ones are US/UK/any other country using? And seeing as (i think anyway) most SF snipers could choose thier own weaps, which ones would they choose??? PS, wasn't sure weather or not this needs to go in RWSF forum. Move as you see fit. Edited May 17, 2003 by JTF-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 I believe they are experimenting with a new one, the SPR, i will be making it for the Ghany mod. I'm sure the use the sr-16. Definently the Barret m82a1. and havent seen any latly, but some type of spruced up m14, xm21 type gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF-2 Posted May 17, 2003 Author Share Posted May 17, 2003 Thanks Marcinko. SPR? special purpose rifle? where can i get pictures? who makes it? what other medium/long range rifles would they use? any of-the-shelf (or slightly modified) rifles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copenhagen Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 some type of spruced up m14, xm21 type gun. M14 DMR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 (edited) Sorry for the late reply. Marcinko, there is no real firearm known as the SR16, that is a fake airsoft weapon. The XM21 is quite old as well, from the 70's infact. The SPR is not a true sniper rifle, it is a designated marksmen rifle. It still fires a 5.56 round, and thus can not be used effectivly out past 200-300 yards. There are a variety of rifles that I know of, which US Forces use. The 82nd Airborne sends their designated marksmen through SOTIC (Special Operations Target Interdicition Course) for qualification of the M14, recently re-introduced. They slap a ACOG on it and use it for engagement when the M16 series is not capable. Army Special Forces use the M24 SWS, customized M14's (Probably M25 models), and the recent MK11 Mod 0, which is a updated SR25. SEALs were the first to get the MK11 weapon, as it was made specificaly from their input. For bolt action SWS's, Naval Spec Warfare issues the Aurora Tactical M91 7.62 rifle; which is based on the Remington 700 action, like the M40 and M24 series. However, they have also issued the M92, which is basicaly a M91 chambered for the .300 Winmag cartridge. For semi autos they will grab the Mk11, however. Marines still have the older M40A1 hanging around in small quanitys , and more recently, the newer and better M40A3. Likewise, they issue the M14DMR, which I hear will be going out of service soon. On the Anti-Armor/Anti-Personnel front, there is the older M82A1, which is circulated around basically all services. The newer version is the M82A1M, which is being looked at by the Army (Possibly adopted, not sure), and is already in use by the Marines, designated the M82A2 SASR. The main difference between the two, being that the M82A2/A1M has a Picatinny rail on top, for mounting a variety of optics. It's hard to say if any custom rifles would be used by Us Troops. I believe if they were, most would be close to what is issued, perhaps a modified Remingon model,etc. http://www.barrettrifles.com/military.html - Short description of M82A1M http://www.auroratactical.com/tactical-weapons.htm - Info on Navy M91/M92 [Edit - Spelling] Edited May 19, 2003 by Piccolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Well slap my momma and call me silly, i had no idea, leave it to Pic to tell me I have a SPR image JTF, i am makin one for Ghany mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 yes, the M-40A3 I think is still used, the PSG-1 and MSG-90 for more urban environments, also the Blaser 93R I think is sometimes used (more of a custom gun), as well as some Harris/McMillian riles, both in .308 and .50. Don't know if the Beret M-90 ever made it into service, that is a bulpup bolt-action version of the M-82A1 and from what I have herd the M-82A2 is a semi-auto bullpup version of the M-82A1. I think guns like the M-21 are still used when the sniper may have to engage targets at closer range, as it was originaly an AR - also the G-3A3/SG-1 for the same reason. For UK snipers I think the Acuarcy Internationl 96 is still popular, as well as some AW weapons, don't know much about Brit snipers though ... I think they also use the M-82. almost all eastern countries use the SVD or some rip-off from it, I know that Yugoslavia and China have for-sure made unlicend copies of it, I'm sure there are others. CLARK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 (edited) The PSG1 and MSG90 are not employed by US Forces, Viper. Excluding, of course, units like Delta, whom no one could really say what they are using. Still, the PSG1 is too cumbersome. The MSG90 is More likely, but still probably not used. The new MK11 and older SR25 variants fill any role that the PSG1 or MSG90 could be used in, so there really isn't a need. This goes for the Blazer too. While it does have some unique features, there are certainly no indications it has actually been utilized by our guys. The M21 is quite old, any accurized M14's used today are new ones. Also, while the M21 was made from the M14, the full auto capability was cut. It's a pretty useless feature on such a large caliber weapon. I don't believe any of the limited M14's issued today even have the feature, for the same reason. British are slowly issuing the AWM, last I checked. It's the .338 chambered version. Before that, and currently, they have the L96A1. I know I've heard of SAS CRW using the PSG1, as well as the Australian SASR. However, I think both groups now prefer the Accuracy International rifles to most anything. Edited May 19, 2003 by Piccolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF-2 Posted May 19, 2003 Author Share Posted May 19, 2003 excellent! thanks all, that was exactly what i wanted to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supasniper Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 a couple of years ago the USMC looked at the MSG90 as a spotter's weapon and for FIBUA but decided not to use it. The AWM is available in both .338 lapua mag and .300 win mag. In .300 form it is issued to the German army as their standard sinper rifle the G22. In the British army the AWM (in .338) is being issued on a platoon level to the unit's best shot to lengthen the range and to peratrate targets outside the capabilities of the .223 SA80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 (edited) If anyone wonders: All Swedish Spec Op units uses Psg 90 (AI AW) 7.62x51mm with SABOT ammo. They also uses Ag 90B which is a moddified version of the M82A1 with shorter barrel and 10 round mag, all to make it lighter to run around with. EDIT: Both used x10 scopes. Edited May 19, 2003 by Wolfsong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 though it is a little off topic I know many US SWAT units use PSG-1s and MSG-90s as they are easaly avalible off the civilian market. I don't know for sure if any M-21s are still in use, I know units like the rangers were using them on a sqad level for specalized sniping roles where the sniper would be operating with a patrol group and a weapon like the M-21 and G-3A3/SG-1 with lower zoom scopes (6 to 8x) would work better, alowing both self defense as well as longer range shots (although not to the level of a dedicated sniper rifle) I think the M-1 Scout with an ACOG scope may also be used in this role. I agree with Piccolo though, few of the M-21s would be original weapons, I think they now use match M-14s that are built to be snipers (also with synthetic stocks now). CLARK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RooK Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 The only SWAT teams that would use a PSG-1 (if they did) are the ones with lots of money; Atlanta, NY, LA etc. Most SWAT teams don't have $10k floating around just to buy one rifle, for this reason, most use an accurized Rem 700, a heavy-barrel AR15, or an M1(M14) varient. Just as effective for a fraction of the cost, especially since most urban sniper shots happen within 80 yards. You could also step up the AR15 to an Armalite AR10 if you wanted 7.62x51mm power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcinko Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Scre that .308 krap, .50 cal SEAL sniper team, HOOYAH!!!!!!!! I belive i misunderstood when someone told me 2r-25, i heard sr-16, actually, it was in type, and a long time ago, so, got em mixed up, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Large calibers like the .50 really serve a different purpose then a general Sniper rifle would be used for. The one advantage they have over a 7.62 is that the BMG round is capable of firing at longer ranges. However, due to the .50-cal type of round employed by US Forces, it makes it difficult to make more accurate anti-personnel shots at longer ranges. This, added to the fact that the Barret M82A1/M models are semi automatic, and thus inherently not as accurate as a bolt action weapon. The Canadians use a better match grade .50 round, as well as a Mcmillian Tactical which is of bolt action operation. They found this setup quite satisfactory while deployed in Afghanistan durring Operation Enduring Freedom. I'm sure most of us are familiar with the story of the Canucks who broke the longest kill record while in A'stan-Land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRIN_Wolfsong Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Large calibers like the .50 really serve a different purpose then a general Sniper rifle would be used for. The one advantage they have over a 7.62 is that the BMG round is capable of firing at longer ranges. Exactly. The 7.62 range can be extended if you use SABOT ammo as well, which is one reason why our snipers use it. They still don't get the range the .50 does of course, but still.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF-2 Posted May 20, 2003 Author Share Posted May 20, 2003 hey all. thanks for the responses. i tried to find pics of the Aurora Tac M91. I managed to find one good one on the official site but it was on an angle (although it was really big and the angel wans't that bad). Does anyone know/have a good side on shot of the M91? also, how about Tactical Operations, would thier rifles be used? which one of thiers would most likely be used? Bravo-51 maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 I can get you a decent picture, JTF. Contact me on MSN Messenger if you have it: chriscartman@hotmail.com I think it's possible the Tac-ops series may be used, but I'm not too familiar with the system, so I do not know of what advantages it may provide over what is issued. I do know, that some form of HS Precision rifle was used in Somalia in 1993, by Delta snipers. I'm not sure on the exact model, I believe it to be the Pro 2000/HTR (Heavy Tactical Rifle) series, but I am not one hundred percent sure. The company, interestingly, has been into Military rifles for a good while. Their match-grade barrels were selected by the USMC for the M40A1, and they also built the stock for the US Army M24 SWS, along with Remington. Here is a link to the HS webpage, for the HTR rifle: http://www.hsprecision.com/htr_rifle.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF-2 Posted May 21, 2003 Author Share Posted May 21, 2003 excellent. thanks Piccolo! PMed you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300Mag Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 (edited) Hi all, The SPR was actually built around a bullet weight, more than anything. Even though any current M16/AR15 with less than a 1 in 9 twist rate (Colts are 1 in 7) will stabilize a bullet heavier than what they currently use, standard military 15/16s are not optimized for long range accuracy. The SPR is intended to take the best points of the AR15/M16 and expand upon it. The AR15/M16 action is already among the best you can find and is used frequently to win 1000 yard competitions. It dominates the line at 600. Stick a free floated match grade heavy barrel on it and you have a serious weapon on your hands. The SPR being fielded (Some of them are purchased by the soldier privately and are non-issue weapons built by a civilian smith) uses the 77 Grain Sierra MatchKing almost universally. This heavier bullet bucks conditions better and maintains downrange energy further than standard military loads. Unlike issue M16s, barrels on the SPR are not chrome lined. The 77 Grain load has enough energy to be effective out to around 600 yards. As a measure, energy at this range is about the same as a hot 9mm handgun load develops at the muzzle. It's no 308, but it will do the job. The 77 grain MatchKing even has a National Stock Number (NSN) associated with it now. I'd agree with previous mention on the AR10. The AR10T to elaborate. They are in use by US military forces in Afghanistan. Armalite fessed up to this several months back. They are every bit as accurate and somewhat more forgiving than the SR25. I fired both and picked up the AR10T. It was not as picky about what it ate and slapped them all just as tight on paper. Edited May 21, 2003 by 300Mag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Thanks for the info, 300mag. I was curious however, do you have a link/source on the AR10T bit? It's not that I don't believe you or anything, I'd just like more info on the who/what/where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300Mag Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 (edited) Piccolo, I had not been to the Armalite homepage in a while. They appear to be milking it for all it's worth. Nice graphic on the front: Armalite I read several tech notes several months back about them being fielded by our people over there. Seems that there have been some product improvements based upon feedback that are going into the 2003 model. I've been told the ones sent over had black furniture on them. I'll try to get the tech notes for you. I think I have them burned on CDs with some other manuals, etc. Also, Armalite was very tight lipped about the units and/or personnel that received these weapons. Since the order of battle for these rifles is identical to the SR25 and 99 percent identical to an M16, just about any unit that would be required to engage targets out to 1000 yards could use it with a minimum of training. The AR10t will shoot the now standard 175 SMK load used by most sniper units just fine. The barrel twist is 1 in 11.25 inches, perfect for this load. Edited May 21, 2003 by 300Mag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Thanks. I'm also wondering, do you know how the AR10T stacks up to the new SR25, the MK11 Mod 0? I know the original SR25's were rejected some years back by units like the Rangers, but from what I've seen, the new MK11 is used often by SEALs, Army SF,etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300Mag Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 (edited) Piccolo, Kinda working off long term memory for a bit of this, so please forgive any grammatical snafus. The big tiff that I remember a while back with the original, and still produced, SR25 (Called the SR25 Match) was it's chamber. The chamber was cut at the time just a tad on the tight side. Something that normally helps match rifles in the accuracy department but does not lend to good feeding in a semi-auto. The older SR25s were picky about what they would digest without jamming. It was not as bad as I'm probably making it sound but as you know, the military likes the zero percent rule. You can make a snug chamber as long as you don't make the throat super tight, which is what Armalite did. I'm pretty sure that the MK11 Mod 0 barrel and chamber is at least designed by a guy named Boots Obermeyer. This guy is waaaaaaaaaay up the food chain in the barrel making business. A near legend. Remington may actually make the barrel but I'm pretty certain Obermeyer was/is involved. Many of the SR25 Match guns used his stuff as well. Armalite uses two manufacturers. For their "house" barrels, I don't believe they have ever made public whose they use. They may make their own by now. For a long while, it was guessed that they used Wilson match barrels, which are pretty good. The other manufacturer is much higher up the chain. Armalite produces a limited number of rifles every year that use Lothar Walther match barrels. Thats what I have on mine. I wanted to go with a maker that had a well known background and would pony up some specs on dimensions, etc., which they did. If you look at the MK11 and the AR10T side by side, they MK11 will look a bit more "polished". The finish on the MK11 is a bit more glossy, the 10T more milspec (parked and dull). All parts on the MK11 will be perfect in finish and look almost buffed. The 10T will be a little less so. The action used by both is identical. The 10T uses forgings for all aluminum parts, the MK11 uses an extrusion process on some. Forgings are stronger, although it won't matter as the parts involved are somewhat low stress. That's why the SR series looks a bit boxier in the lower receiver and the AR10 is a bit rounded. Extrusions don't handle that type of shape well. It's a bit hard to compare the Mk11 and 10T. Both are very accurate. It may all come down to which one gets the best barrel. Even Obermeyer can make one that shoots well but not great. Any manufacturer can and it's sometimes luck of the draw. I've had two 10Ts with Walther barrels. Both would hit a tennis ball at 300 yards on a routine basis. Group sizes at 500 yards were nearly always minute of angle or better. I would imagine that the MK11 would produce similar results. The one difference is the price. An AR10T is about $2000 without optics. The MK11 is up near 7000. The standard SR25 is about 2800 or a little more. It's like the AMD / Intel arguement. Both camps love their toys. I like them both. I'd hate to be on the wrong end of either. I'd also put either one up against a PSG1 and expect the HK to go back in the case pretty fast. The PSG1 is a very good precision rifle but is not quite as consistant as the 10T and SR25. The AR15/M15 and AR10 action (which the SR25 uses) is not perfect but it's nearly as good as a custom bolt action. It is an rarity for any rifle in the M14/M1A match class to be as accurate as the AR10/SR25. Bedding issues persist and the barrels are just too thin. I'll post a couple targets that the 10T has fired later after I dig them up. They really are incredible weapons. Edited May 21, 2003 by 300Mag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Thanks, Mag. Much appreciate the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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