Weapons In Mods

[H-Hour 0]

I have to admit, I've never been much of a gun nut and frankly I never cared whether the guns I was firing in GR matched real-world specifications, or would be a realistic kit option for a soldier in the field. I know, however, that for many people the kinds of weapons they take are an important part of their enjoyment. So I don't mean for this post to be an attack on weapon modders, who obviously provide popular mods.

I'm posting because I'm hoping to get some idea of what people enjoy in the weapons they take in-game, so that I can make some decisions about the project I'm working on at the moment.

First, I'll say something about my own perspective on weapons. For the most part, I've always avoided gun modifications because I've found that they usually make the weapons "too good". Their recoil rates and reticule spread while moving may be more realistic, but I find they make the game too easy. Thus, I never really considered bothering with anything other than mission/map modifications.

YOTM, however, changed my view of the role that guns can have in-game (thanks DonMiguel). Two things in particular caught my attention. First, the weapons were comparably inaccurate and slow to recoil, which significantly upped the difficulty of the missions. Second, the only SD weapons were silenced pistols, something I really appreciated as I've always felt silenced weapons made stealth missions far too easy (unless the scripter makes it so that killing someone automatically sets the whole area on fire).

With that in mind, I'm considering cobbling together some different kit options and possibly some different guns (pulled from other mods, with permission) in order to add a bit more of a change to my next release. Would anyone who plays (you don't have to be a modder) respond to the following questions?

1. The sniper rifle in YOTM takes a very, very long time to become accurate after moving. I found that this really reinforced my role as sniper, forcing me to think more carefully about my pace. Even if it wasn't "realistic", I really enjoyed it. How do people feel about these kinds of adjustments to guns, which may be limiting, but also make the game more difficult?

2. Most weapons modifications seem bent on offering tons and tons of weapons options. How would people feel about a situation in which they had fewer options in the weapons they took, but where each specialist's weapon had very distinct advantages/disadvantages?

3. And, more generally, for those that enjoy weapons modifications: what is it that you enjoy about the weapons? Is it the realistic kit options, the ability to play the same missions over with different kits every time?

[Tinker 1]

1. The sniper rifle in YOTM takes a very, very long time to become accurate after moving. I found that this really reinforced my role as sniper, forcing me to think more carefully about my pace. Even if it wasn't "realistic", I really enjoyed it. How do people feel about these kinds of adjustments to guns, which may be limiting, but also make the game more difficult?

I do not usually go for sniping, so not much feedback. Though YOTM sniper rifle does the job just fine. I`m all for slowing down the snipers, slow and controlled shots.

2. Most weapons modifications seem bent on offering tons and tons of weapons options. How would people feel about a situation in which they had fewer options in the weapons they took, but where each specialist's weapon had very distinct advantages/disadvantages?

Nothing worse than having to skip threw tons of kits every time you want to switch weapon. In the 9MS mod, we made our own characters, just so we could have our own personnel kit set up. Most characters average about 20 kits each. Some have some of this, and others have some of that... I did used to gripe about no silent kits with the demo. Yes I do have SD kits now, but, not having them, made you rely on other team members more. A good idea.

3. And, more generally, for those that enjoy weapons modifications: what is it that you enjoy about the weapons? Is it the realistic kit options, the ability to play the same missions over with different kits every time?

I think some just like to have access to a larger variety. Not sure, maybe other`s can answer that.

[ApexMods 883]

1. The sniper rifle in YOTM takes a very, very long time to become accurate after moving. I found that this really reinforced my role as sniper, forcing me to think more carefully about my pace. Even if it wasn't "realistic", I really enjoyed it. How do people feel about these kinds of adjustments to guns, which may be limiting, but also make the game more difficult?

While - as you have mentioned - this is not really very close to realism, to me this is still one of several ways to increase the realistic feel of the game. The sniper role in real life requires quite a bit more than to just go prone, aim, and pull the trigger, yet in the game there is no spotter, no windage, no sight adjustments etc. - so artificially increasing the time to get fire-ready with a sniper rifle, like it is done in YOTM, in my book is a valid option to compensate for the lack of these features, although I have opted for another approach in Heroes Unleashed.

2. Most weapons modifications seem bent on offering tons and tons of weapons options. How would people feel about a situation in which they had fewer options in the weapons they took, but where each specialist's weapon had very distinct advantages/disadvantages?

Personally, I love having access to the full repertoire of weapons used by real-life special forces, but a mod with a very limited selection of weapons is no deal-breaker for me either, as long as the equipment offered is sufficient and adequate for the situation. For example, if the mission or story was about a unit deployed deep in enemy territory months ago, without any possibility to re-supply, it would make sense if they had only a few bare essentials left available.

On the other hand, if your team is flown into a crisis region fresh from Ft. Bragg, and their orders are to go in and fight overwhelming forces to save the world, I would expect them to have pretty much every weapon known to man at their disposal, and that would include silenced weapons for every soldier class (something I sorely missed in un-modded Ghost Recon).

3. And, more generally, for those that enjoy weapons modifications: what is it that you enjoy about the weapons? Is it the realistic kit options, the ability to play the same missions over with different kits every time?

I think some just like to have access to a larger variety. Not sure, maybe other`s can answer that.

Well, I guess when looking at Heroes Unleashed it is quite obvious that I do like some variety.

Replayability is certainly an important factor for me. On one end of the scale, you can play the same mission with just one sniper, silenced weapons, and stealth, on the other end you go in with a full squad of riflemen and supporters, assault rifles blazing on full-auto, machine guns providing suppressive fire from a distance. The more variety the equipment supports, the more nuances of gameplay you have in between.

Then there is the "cosmetic" factor of eye (and ear) candy. It's just plain cool to have access to e.g. experimental weapons like the OICW and XM8, to see them in action, to experience their handling, to look through their weapon optics, to hear their muzzle report. But hey, maybe that's just me.

[migryder 13]

I love to have plenty of variety myself and have had a look at just about every weapons mod ever done for this one since 2002...made a personal mod in 05 that simply gave me all of them in one show...even so there are always a few kits that you end up clinging to regardless the scope of variety...I just enjoy having a look at all the wonderful "hobby" work that people have done for us is all...I mean back in the day how cool were those DTD mods when ya first saw em?? Remember the first time you loaded up No Easy Day? Jeez, which one do I take?

let me state this - IMO the weapons in a mod that includes missions/campaign should give player a chance to complete the challenges presented in those missions/campaign...that simple..may make another set of missions too easy or too difficult but fit well into the "mod" at hand..your YOTM example above is perfect....for instance, and you'll understand this H-Hour, access to a kit or two(literally) with 5 AT rockets may seem silly from a real life perspective, but very reasonable if you are playing a standard mig mission. Two reasons - tanks and plentiful aggressive opfor who will kill some team members and send you back to the start...

heroes are good way to spread the variety out...and for coop/mp/gtf kit restrictions can be used..for instance break out of the classic mp box and use some other retrictions like HK only, FN only, ar15-m16 variants only...blah blah. So there may be ways to inject variety but keep the tedium down too for those without the patience?

EDIT: this got me thinking...maybe if ya have a large collection of weaps you could provide seperate kit folders? maybe one full and one reduced one or even more options so all player has to do is rename folders to activate/deactivate them?

mig

[OSO 0]

1. The sniper rifle in YOTM takes a very, very long time to become accurate after moving. I found that this really reinforced my role as sniper, forcing me to think more carefully about my pace. Even if it wasn't "realistic", I really enjoyed it. How do people feel about these kinds of adjustments to guns, which may be limiting, but also make the game more difficult?

I prefer to play demo or support. Not able to comment too much on this but I don't like it when the weapons are modelled to react like laser guns regardless of the weapon.

2. Most weapons modifications seem bent on offering tons and tons of weapons options. How would people feel about a situation in which they had fewer options in the weapons they took, but where each specialist's weapon had very distinct advantages/disadvantages?

More is not always better. My biggest gripe when playing MP is how long it takes people to select a kit. The more available, the longer it takes. The longer it takes people to make up their mind, the less time you actually play. I compare huge kit selections to cable television. I have a few hundred TV stations to choose from and I only watch about 5 on a regular basis.

3. And, more generally, for those that enjoy weapons modifications: what is it that you enjoy about the weapons? Is it the realistic kit options, the ability to play the same missions over with different kits every time?

GR is unique in that you don't have your weapon and arms sticking out of your chin all over the screen. When I play, I'm concerned with completing the mission; not with gawking at weapons. The sound and the characteristics of the weapons are far more important from my perspective.

[H-Hour 0]

Thanks for the responses, everybody. It all seems a bit daunting, to be honest, and I'm still not sure whether I'll dive in or not.

Everyone seems to have their own take on it, so I guess it just comes down to how I think it will impact on the overall enjoyment of the mod.

I still worry I'm gonna assign a weapon because it "looks pretty" and you're all gonna think: "so-and-so would never use that weapon in real life!"

[P@LaD!n 0]

1. The sniper rifle in YOTM takes a very, very long time to become accurate after moving. I found that this really reinforced my role as sniper, forcing me to think more carefully about my pace. Even if it wasn't "realistic", I really enjoyed it. How do people feel about these kinds of adjustments to guns, which may be limiting, but also make the game more difficult?

I tend to do the sniper character most of the time both in SP and MP-CoOp when playing with my group. The two types of characters I play most often are the sniper & rifleman, though also do the demo guy when required and no one else wants to. A couple of friends and sometimes my kids too are the run & gun type, even on missions, so they tend to do the support or MM1 and do the 'spray & pray' thing, but I've gotten used to the mix of play styles over the years, even if its in the same map/mission.

I like more realism, but as you state the delays put in for YOTM do force one to make more picky in choosing the shots. My biggest gripe in GR that doesn't seem to get much fixing in a lot of weapons mods is how weak the pistols are. For CQ a sniper rifle is bad news any way you put it, and IRL a pistol or small sub gun is carried by the sniper for close up work. In the original game and in many weapons mods, it still takes 10-30 head shots at point blank range to make a kill. While there are RL issues with 9mm, even the 45 caliber pistols in the game can and do suffer from this fault. I was playing online in a CoOp firefight the other day and hit an enemy in the head and chest so many times semi-auto that I went through the previously full mag on the UMP, reloaded and was halfway through the second when he finally dropped. {{I'm thankful *that* has never happened to me IRL!!}}

In other words, I like the delay to a large extent as it helps take the place of all the real world elements of long range shooting that GR can't reproduce. At the same time, if an enemy shows up nearby and your security is either not present or killed, you're hard pressed to put your rifle to use for that quick snap shot or follow-up shot at close range. I'm not sure if the game engine can make both options viable at the same time.

Now, the types of sniper rifles to modify for the delay would probably have more to do with it. A big .50 cal rifle with its recoil and huge length barrel would be easy to see for such delays. An M4/M16/M14 setup as a squad DMR weapon, wouldn't need the slowdown changes as those weapons also do double duty for their regular combat weapon and have few changes other than a decent mid-range scope. {{Yes, I know that the M-14 DMRs have been extensively reworked, most of them anyway, but on average, the DMR is a regular rifle with as few changes as possible to increase mid-range accuracy at the squad level w/o having to place a true sniper team with the unit}}

Recently playing with the Mk17 in the HU mod, I found that the night time missions became much more difficult while sniping as that weapon had the standard daytime scope reticle. Black on black at night has always been a difficult shot to make IRL. Granted, though, many scope makers also have illuminated reticles for the same model scopes, so black on black doesn't *have* to be the case, but until the night-reticle version is released it has made me more careful of my shots.

Doing something like SOTO's SPV4 and adding a secondary weapon as an assault rifle, or making the pistols/smgs more realistic, would be a good trade off, and giving the sniper the best of both - careful long range shots and still have some protection for close up work.

2. Most weapons modifications seem bent on offering tons and tons of weapons options. How would people feel about a situation in which they had fewer options in the weapons they took, but where each specialist's weapon had very distinct advantages/disadvantages?

I sit on both sides of the rails on this one. On one side I really do like the variety of weapon choices offered by many mods, but also get bogged down in the selection at times. When I load up a new weapons mod I play a variety to find ones I really like. I never did care for the OICW in the original game as I didn't like its reticle or zoom factor, and it was just too laser-gun in style for me, though I know it was in real development as a real firearm/gl combo. Still, it just didn't fit me very well, though others in my gaming group loved it.

I haven't tried that weapon much since the original game, but tried it in MP the other day using the HU version and was surprised at the reticles and corrected zoom and handling. Though I'm not likely to use that weapon kit much in play, it's made me rethink it as an option.

After playing with a new weapons mod I've kind of figured out which ones are my favorites and the faves of those in my group. Yes, and like many it's usually something along the line of kits 14-35-79-141 of the rifleman, 36-48-77-196 of the sniper, etc. and clicking through all the options to get to the one you want *can* be irritating - and after one recent weekend long play-fest thought I might be developing RSD from clicking so much!

What I've done for my group is similar to Thales' fantastic HK2 mod - put the favorite weapons of the group into their own mod and do a "compatibility" mod to ride above the current mod. For MP use we've make custom kit restrictions, though I really do like the 9MS method of creating specific characters representing the game group players with their already customized favorite kits.

In regards to the specialists/heroes, yes, the fact that some of their kits may be very helpful to certain missions can be a major plus, and a major factor in whether to include them in a particular mission. For my own use though, I rarely use the specialists in QM or Campaigns. In the campaigns I like to try and bring my own team up in skills rather than use the specialists. In the original campaign though, the player wasn't given the option of all the weapons and the only way to get to some was through the specialists - which could be another option for you.

3. And, more generally, for those that enjoy weapons modifications: what is it that you enjoy about the weapons? Is it the realistic kit options, the ability to play the same missions over with different kits every time?

All of that and more. A LOT for me has to do not only with the looks of the weapon but the reticles as well, and the "handling" of that particular weapon. An M82 that's as easy to 'slice the pie' in CQ room clearing just doesn't do it for me, nor does an SMG that in game is as slow and cumbersome as the previously mentioned 50 cal sniper M82.

Replaying missions with different weapons is fun too, especially if there are real life options available for the weapons & kits. I tend to treat the sniper in the game more as a designated marksman instead of a true sniper due mainly to the short ranges on most maps, so giving them an M4 w/Acog 4x6x, an SPR, Mk 16, Mk17, SR25, M14-DMR, etc makes it more realistic. Also, giving some of the same weapons to each team member allows for the use of the same team in campaigns that you're trying to get their skills up as high as possible - the old, everyone's a rifleman philosophy. The Navy Seals mod does good in that and I like the sopmod-M4 option in that mod. I also like Trance's M4 mod with all the variations. I have my favorites among the weapons in all the mods, and have them in my "fave mods mod" I use personally.

Given that, if given a preference I'd say fewer weapons in the mod release, with various options for each (sensor, demo, AT, frags, 40mm, etc) so that the players can either adjust the weapons kits to their liking, or add in their faves from other mods.

If you think that XYZ weapon would be a good choice for 40% of the missions in the mod, by all means include it, but don't worry if others might prefer to use the ZQ7-mark 44-Mod 35 uber rifle. They can add it in themselves if they want.

[twcrash 75]

For me I like all the kits. It makes planning for a mission different. I mean I could do the missions every time with a sniper rifle or a SA80 but like If I want a more Police feel I will don a silent weapons with no scopes and attempt to clear buildings. Plus you can also attempt the same old mission with new stuff and make it harder to play.

But with that said too many weapons can ruin the play. I personally Feel SK and DA49 can do that to the missions. I love both mods but they do have way over powered weapons.I just expect my run n gunner buddies to take off when we play those mods. tough question. I think you build your mod the way you want it and we will play it how it is built. lol sorry not really an answer