2nd Hand Game Sales

[WhiteKnight77]

Gamer Bacchus2 over at Gamespot has a blog post called The Antiresale Agenda in response to the Gamestop article: Gears 2 bonus maps leading antiresale DLC wave.

I know that there are those who play consoles who buy second hand games, but who cares if publishers do not get paid a second time. They received money for the sale already, why should they get paid a second time. I have yet to see a second hand game pull in the same price that a new game does ($50-$70). Why do they think they need to be paid again (Sup, this is a rhetorical question and does not require an answer)? Wanna do away with the second hand market? Develop games that people do not want to sell is an idea.

It also appears to me that the second hand market is pretty much kept to the console market. I don't recall ever seeing PC games being resold (outside of eBay or Amazon.com). Do any of you? If so, how big is the market for such games in your area?

[Deadpreacher]

I have always been a big PC gamer until last gen when the console went ONLINE. So i gave it a go. Anyways since then i have kept ever game i ever got just because im used to not trading out PC games. By the end of the gen i had 250 games. I toke all the games and even the console to trade them in. It paid for my new next Gen console in full plus like 10 games. Anyways yes it was nice it paid for everything, but doing it from a game store was my main mistake. I toke a big hit by doing it from a game store. So this Gen im keeping all my games, refusing to trade them in at a game store. However i am still keeping almost all my games, but if i do think i may want to get rid of a game i sell it to friends or Ebay! I get alot more money this way plus i want all my games to pay for my next gen console again when the time comes. Well from the sound of next gen this might be my last time i do this!

As for what you posted the game devs should only get paid once, however they are taken action on 2nd hand games. They have the deals for the person who got the game first or buys new (DLC). Than they have talks about going all down loads to stop 2nd hand games. This can have alot of impact on games in the future and 2nd hand games. I don't care if they stop 2nd hand games from being sold again or what ever. Yet what i would like to see is the game stores stop taken a killing by robbing us everytime we trade in a game. They buy it off of us for pennys and turn around and sell it just under a price of a new game! I like 2nd hand games myself, but even i don't buy them from a game store anymore! Ebay or something of the like is the only way i buy them or sell anymore. I would hate to see 2nd hand games go away, but if they can make it where the game stores stop maken more money than they do with the DLC than so be it. We may have to buy the game 2nd hand and buy the DLC also. Yet if it brings the game itself down to a very low price and have the DLC price stay the same i may be ok with it. Than again DEVS can keep maken money long after the game comes out with just DLC alone so why should they worry about not getting the money the 2nd time the game is sold. It opens up to more people to buy there DLC long after a games been out.

[Rocky]

Wow, interesting debate!

I didn't have time to read the whole thing, but I did pick up on one thing Perry said early in in his rebuke.

In reality, every game that goes "digital" will drop in price for the consumer (when compared to today's system). "Price" will always be a key part of the "buy" decision for consumers, and removing fees for GameStop, Packaging Design, Packaging Materials, Manuals, Shipping, Insurance, Manufacturing, Distribution, In-Store Promotions, Co-Op Advertising, RETURNS etc. will help consumers see attractive price drops.

Yah.

That's what happened with e-books, right?

If I got the main thrust of the debate though, publishers are including one time "coupons" for brand new purchases, that will not be available with any second hand sales, to try and encourage gamers to buy new when faced with the dilemma of new or used.

Is that going to work, is that enough to persuade the "used" demographic that they should suddenly change their philosophy and start spending more on their games and buy new?

I can only speak for myself, but I buy new so I can have it during release month, and I buy used when a game I'm interested in but not really mad keen on, hits a tempting discount or used price point. One time incentive's are not going to change my purchase habits at all.

[dporter]

Before EB games was bought by Gamestop, they actually had a really decent used PC game selection. That was about 5 years ago though. Today it's getting harder and harder though to rely on used pc games. You always run the risk of someone keeping the CD key installed on their machine and running the game with a [Thing that should not be spoken of here IAW Forum Rule 3.7] key so when you the buyer go to play it you are locked out of MP. COD4 for instance doesn't even need a disk to play online, so I could install the game, use my cd key, then sell to someone else and I could still get online and play as long as the other person wasn't and vise versa.

Personally I've always bought used games in order to save some money. I used to buy the socom games when they first came out, but I don't even do that now anymore. I'm more cautious about buying games now until they have been out for a few days and I've read all the user reviews with an open mind. I just don't want to get stuck with a lemon.

I also hate that console games are for the most part $60. With the current economy I have way more important things to spend that money on then a mediocre game. I'm actually surprised at how profitable the used game market is for Gamestop since the discount really isn't that huge on used console games. I guess the buy two used get a third free deals probably help with those sales.

Like you said, make a game worth keeping or create a good track record with your games so that people can't resist spending their hard earned cash when your games first come out.

[WhiteKnight77]

Even when I played my PS1 I never bought a used game, but I can see why people would. I also know that it's a big loss for those who take the games in to places like EB Games and Gamestop.

I can't say how well the deals tht the publishers give those who buy new will work out. Will it increase new sales? I don't know. Will it wipe out the used game market, most likely not. There are those who just will not buy new games.

[Sup]

Trade in games are the console equivalent of piracy as far as sales hits, actually.

Why should they be paid again? Think of it like this. Let's pick an imaginary number and say Nintendo makes 10 dollars of profit off every game sold, okay?

A store shelves 5 copies of the new mario whatever, and 5 used copies.

Ten people come into the store to buy the game.

Nintendo makes 50 dollars profit instead of the 100 they would have if the store was not reselling used games. Why the hell would they want to encourage that? Obviously any decent businessman would see a massive hole in their business model there. They either need to find some way to profit off of the used games market (perhaps publisher sanctioned tradeins?) or find some way to encourage buyers not to use it.

PC games do not get resold because of technical constraints like cdkeys -- and the ease of piracy.

[kleaneasy]

I can only speak for myself, but I buy new so I can have it during release month, and I buy used when a game I'm interested in but not really mad keen on, hits a tempting discount or used price point. One time incentive's are not going to change my purchase habits at all.

Thats pretty much the same for me.

I tend to find the cost of used games isnt so different to the new ones (at least not during the first few months since launch) so the incentive just isnt there, and usually if I was interested enough to buy I was interested enough to buy at launch but if I am a little dry on games and after something I might have previously left I will look at used but as you say if the price is incentive enough. Although the kids tend to look at second hand when buying from their own pocket and every penny counts.

@ WK - I have found the local indie stores hold as many used PC games as console although they tend to have a larger range in terms of older to newer while console seems to be a larger collection of newer used titles (when I say newer I mean anything up to 12 months old)

[Rocky]

I tend to find the cost of used games isnt so different to the new ones (at least not during the first few months since launch) so the incentive just isnt there,

Example : today in Gamestation the kids wanted to trade in some old games against a new wii game.

They went for wii Mario, the brand new boxed game came with a steering wheel, the second hand one did not - the new game was only a couple of pound dearer! Bit of a no brainer.

[kleaneasy]

Yep thats exactly my experience and its not a one off or even once in a while but ongoing common practice they buy second hand games and on average in my experience mark them only a few pounds below the new ones. Its the most bizzare thing I've ever seen and I can never work out how the second hand market exists on that basis but clearly it does otherwise they wouldnt do it

[Brettzies]

Posted this on another forum, and while I can't fault people for buying used games to save some dough, there is a problem depending on how long the game has been out, quality, availablity, etc. Generally, my thoughts on buying used is that it's more acceptable if the game has been out for a while and run-its-course in terms of demand.

That's the same as saying that when I sell my Sony TV the guy that buys it is stealing from Sony

No, it is not the same at all. Similar from a "physical product" side, but not the same. When you sell the TV you can no longer use it or get anything out of it. With a game, you're really buying the "experience," so once you've played it through, you've had the intended "experience" and theorectically got your money's worth(whether the player thinks it was worth it is irrelevant-like a bad movie). Selling it means you can no longer take advantage of that experience, but from an SP point of view, how many people are going to replay the experience more then 1 or 2 times? With a TV, you keep getting "new" experiences every day via shows, movies, etc. It's more of a tool.

In the case of the TV, it could be old, dirty, beat up, losing color, heavy, basically used so it has depreciated in value anyway. With the game it is going to be exactly the same, espeically a console game. Possibly the disc could be beat up, but essentially if it runs, the experience will be the same.

The problem here is not so much people selling their used game to a friend or at a garage sale, it's buying the game the week it comes out, playing it through(ie Bioshock-SP only), and then selling it back to Gamestop for say $20, who then turns around and sells it for $55(instead of $60). So, the very week the game comes out, a kid with little money will see the $5 as a huge difference and go for the "used" game, which really is exactly the same in terms of what they play. When I buy games at Gamestop they almost always asked me if I want the used copy for $5 cheaper. Why? Because all that money goes to them. I do see that as robbing the publisher, especially for a game less then 6 months old.

The other problem with this is you have a gauranteed buyer and re-seller in Gamestop. Try finding someone to buy your used game even on the internet and it's just not as immediate. Multiply that times 100s and you start to have an issue. People don't usually buy TVs one week and then turn around and sell it the next week back to the store for 50% less and then see the store sell it for 95% of a new one(with no money going to Sony). Even if they do, it's not like 100s of people are doing it.

I don't think they are so concerned with people re-selling their games to each other or whoever. It's more the fact that Gamestop provides a central location for it to happen, and that it happens with brand new games the very week of their release; not to mention Gamestop takes in all the money for the resale.

You could say the same thing about books or movies, that they are experiences and the media is not as important. Pricing is usually quite drastic though. For books the physical quality is important, immediate enjoyment vs that of a game. Length of movies compared to length of games. It's all similar, but lots of differences as well.

Personally I do not think people should be prevented from re-selling their games or entire collections, but I do think there is something wrong with the Gamestop situation and because of the demand for fresh games, it is not quite the same as a used book store or even used dvd movie.

[Sup]

couldn't have said it near that well brettzies.

[Snake@War]

I think that game publishers have the right to do this. (Well just not Ubisoft, JK) I was thinking about this just a month ago standing in Gamestop. I said that in the next year we would start seeing a cd-key type deal with all new games. I wouldn't mind paying $5 bucks for a fresh key if they (Game stores) lower used game prices by the same. This hit me when I was looking at buying COD4 and saw that the Variety Map Pack only came with the GOTY version which had a coupon code you could redeem for your DLC.

[krise madsen]

When I buy games at Gamestop they almost always asked me if I want the used copy for $5 cheaper. Why? Because all that money goes to them. I do see that as robbing the publisher, especially for a game less then 6 months old.

Personally I do not think people should be prevented from re-selling their games or entire collections, but I do think there is something wrong with the Gamestop situation and because of the demand for fresh games, it is not quite the same as a used book store or even used dvd movie.

See below.

I think that game publishers have the right to do this.

Wrong. The publisher is a vendor, selling a product to GameStop, the retailer. They get paid for every copy they sell to GameStop. The fact that GameStop choose to buy used games cheap and sell them at almost full price (and gamers choose to buy these used games at full price) is not really the publishers business, they don't have a right to do anything of the sort.

Sure, it's really annoying to watch GameStop make a ton of money on used sales, without the publishers getting any (and in fact, selling fewer new games because of it). But GameStop is doing nothing illegal; they're just their ability to make profit to the max.

Not that I would mind if the publishers got some of the used games profit: It might mean that more niche games could become profitable, and that more (and better) games would be made. If the publishers and retailers could make a deal (either give used game royalties or maybe ban used game resale for the first 3-6 months or something). But that's not the same as a "right" to anything.

Worse, the publishers seem to go straight to Plan B: Take it out on gamers so they have to buy new. Epic's idea of giving gamers some old GoW1 maps for GoW2 is relatively benign. But don't be surprised if a game one day won't let you finish the single player campaign or won't let you play multiplayer because you bought it used. Already, Nintendo plans to ship its Wii Speak microphone with a one-time activation code: You can't sell it to anyone. You can't even give it away. Ever. And this is just a damn USB microphone.

Of course, there are those in the industry who advocate less draconian procedures, such as making more downloadable content: That way, each gamer who buys it second hand is a potential customer. However, given the industry's abysman track record (i.e. DRM tomfoolery), I wouldn't be surprised if they screw this up with truly draconian schemes.

Anyway, this will only be an issue until we go all digital distribution. And GameStop is certainly doing what they can for this to happen as soon as possible.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Sup]

Krise, PC games have been coming with CD keys and activation schemes (draconian DRM aside) for as long as i've been playing them. How is it inherently more evil if a console game does?

I cant go to gamestop and buy a used copy of Diablo 2, why can i get a used copy of Halo?

[Cpl Ledanek]

oh I thought there are cheap games in here...nvrmind (enter Whispher_44 )

[Snake@War]

Krise, PC games have been coming with CD keys and activation schemes (draconian DRM aside) for as long as i've been playing them. How is it inherently more evil if a console game does?

I cant go to gamestop and buy a used copy of Diablo 2, why can i get a used copy of Halo?

Exactly, and you don't have the (almost inherent) hardware incompatibility and other issues that you would to stop you from using "copy protection" for PC gaming. I, for one, think that this is a very smart move on the part of the publishers.

[krise madsen]

Krise, PC games have been coming with CD keys and activation schemes (draconian DRM aside) for as long as i've been playing them. How is it inherently more evil if a console game does?

I cant go to gamestop and buy a used copy of Diablo 2, why can i get a used copy of Halo?

Exactly, and you don't have the (almost inherent) hardware incompatibility and other issues that you would to stop you from using "copy protection" for PC gaming. I, for one, think that this is a very smart move on the part of the publishers.

Yes, it's a very smart move, providing gamers will go along with it, which they probably will. The legality may be a little muddled, what with "First Sale Doctrine" and all, but law is a different matter. And it has nothing to do with "evil". It has to do with "oh, let's skip trying to make an arrangement with GameStop and just go straight to forcing gamers to buy new". I'm really not thrilled with an industry argument over profits suddenly becoming the consumers problem.

Nor am I happy with this notion of "oh, they're making money off our games. We're entitled to some of it!" No they're not. If they can get it, more power to them, but it's all about getting a bigger piece of the pie, not about publishers rights or priviledges being trampled.

Respectfully

krise madsen