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Console Games Having More Problems Than Before?


WhiteKnight77
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I have had no problems with my console or any games I have ever bought for it, including games that were not worth keeping, every game played without issue off and online. Vegas has no issues for me whatsoever online, connection problems or whatever. There is nothing wrong with this game, the limited coop in story was well previewed prior to release, the limit to respawns is new but I don't see that as a deficiency since I don't like them anyway, the game has a much better SP and features and improved coop, there's nothing to justify the vilification that is going on.

How many of the people who are carrying on this rant have actually played the new Vegas 2. It is your right to opine but, how much is based on actual experience with the 360 game? I think these posts about the quality of Xbox games is getting hysterical and offensive. i think the tone should be moderated some.

I can't believe I just read that you are of the opinion there is no justification for the vilification. The act of vilifying someone is to make them appear vile...or to reveal them to be vile. I can think of few words better to describe someone that would without conscious sell defective products for profit.

I am not going to attempt to provide legitimate examples of blatant issues with Vegas 2 as there are far too many. Yes there are some persons on the attack just for the celebration of angst but quite frankly it is actually warranted. I wonder if the devs think they are being screwed without justification? Let them try being a buyer. There are very real issues, the nature of some being so obvious and so predominant they should never have been missed.

These errors could have been prevented with a beta test. It is sad this is needed on a console, but those are the facts. Ubi chose not to do this. Welcome to the price of being cheap.

Either the developers are intentionally negligent or they are incompetent. Okay let's say Ubi ordered them to put the game on the street regardless of condition. The devs say nothing though they know the truth. What does that say about them? They assist in deception of the public for money. Case closed. I am like Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive. Either way, "I don't care." The difference is Dr Richard Designer is not innocent in this version.

Poking your head in the sand and pretending there is no justification is part of the issue. This is akin to people insisting there is no such thing as RROD. The issues exist. You are going to have an odd feeling when Ubi issues a patch to fix non-existent problems.

No product is perfect. There is no way every small exploit can be found prior to shipping, particular those that are uncovered by the intensive and relentless actions of professional glitchers. But that isn't what we are seeing. We are discussing gamestopping issues that prevent the average gamer from playing and that is just criminal.

Edited by Hatchetforce
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I still don't know how this applies to the Xbox, I have yet to buy a game that I did more than simply insert the disc and play. I have had no technical issues with Vegas whatsoever. Compared to the problems I had with PC games with drivers and adjusting resolution options, lag and poor performance, constant expensive upgrading, and ultimately the inferior quality of the games themselves.

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I learned my lesson long time ago with Ubisoft....2003 to be exact with the release of RVS

I get console releases from them but I wait a few months untill the price go down on the USED market and I pay no more than $15 so in reality they don't get my money at all since I bought used .........hey they are cheap with me I can be cheap to them :thumbsup:

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I still don't know how this applies to the Xbox, I have yet to buy a game that I did more than simply insert the disc and play. I have had no technical issues with Vegas whatsoever. Compared to the problems I had with PC games with drivers and adjusting resolution options, lag and poor performance, constant expensive upgrading, and ultimately the inferior quality of the games themselves.

Kurtz, I think you jumped into a discussion that my not apply to you. You also may have missed this in one of Klean's posts.

unlike the PS3 players whose issues do impact on their ability to play the game.

There are a number of PS3 owners here, so you probably are unaware of the issues they may be facing.

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It would be reasonable to expect some teething problems on a new console, much as it is frustrating to the owners. Hopefully, the connectivity problems for the PS3 gamers will be fixed, I have heard this complaint about the online side of the PS3 from owners of other games for PS3.

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I'm in total agreement with you WK and I can almost feel Hatchetforces frustration/anger in his posts, you say the console games need patching, I'd say they shouldnt need to be patched at all, the games come out on a closed system and all the 360's should be the same so no worrying about different components, the game should be released FINISHED!

If downloadable content comes later then great but what happens if you buy the game and dont have the internet? Up a certain creek without a paddle?

On PC's I can see the need for patching if problems arise with different system configurations but for any release, AAA title or not to come out and not work properly is inexcusable. You wouldnt buy a car with no doors on hoping they'd get delivered later would you? And i'd be really hacked off if after 6 months and still no doors you get told that you wouldn't be getting the doors but they would be included in the next model......

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Exactly my point. The biggest reason people play consoles is the simplicity of being able to play. When makers added internet connectivity and hard drives, the equation changed and publishers are taking advantage of it, just like they have for PC games. Sure there may not be any driver updates, but with games having to be patched now, I see it as a step backwards from the original premise for gaming on a console. Simplicity.

Games for consoles used to be complete and now they are not. You also bring up a good point. The guy out in the boonies who has no internet, but has a buggy game, can't get his game patched. This is unacceptable period. It really doesn't matter if someone has or doesn't have internet, he should be able to pop the disk in the console and game, without problems.

Now add to the above problems, it has been reported that Sony: PlayStation Network compromised shows that something isn't or wasn't secured somewhere and hackers were able to grab information. Teething pains are one thing, but this is something that is irresponsible for such a large company.

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Exactly my point. The biggest reason people play consoles is the simplicity of being able to play. When makers added internet connectivity and hard drives, the equation changed and publishers are taking advantage of it, just like they have for PC games. Sure there may not be any driver updates, but with games having to be patched now, I see it as a step backwards from the original premise for gaming on a console. Simplicity.

Games for consoles used to be complete and now they are not. You also bring up a good point. The guy out in the boonies who has no internet, but has a buggy game, can't get his game patched. This is unacceptable period. It really doesn't matter if someone has or doesn't have internet, he should be able to pop the disk in the console and game, without problems.

Now add to the above problems, it has been reported that Sony: PlayStation Network compromised shows that something isn't or wasn't secured somewhere and hackers were able to grab information. Teething pains are one thing, but this is something that is irresponsible for such a large company.

Which brings me back to my original post in this thread. Dont be under any illusion that consoel games pre online era were not glitchy because they were, as I said before the difference now to then is now they are patched. However I would also agree with a comment made by Serellan earlier in the thread also, I think a lot of the problems you refer to are caused by the fact the game has to connect online so by having the ability to play online you open the door to other issues which you would not face on a closed system (a phrase used by another in this thread) when something plays online it isnt a closed system anymore.

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I used the phrase closed system but I meant it as in being all the parts inside the console were the same for any console ( all 360's having the same architecture) unlike in pc's where there could be milllions of different configurations of parts, what I didnt mean was a system that didnt have internet access and thus closed off from the outside world. Not knocking you matey, just clearing up what I actually meant with the phrase.

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I used the phrase closed system but I meant it as in being all the parts inside the console were the same for any console ( all 360's having the same architecture) unlike in pc's where there could be milllions of different configurations of parts, what I didnt mean was a system that didnt have internet access and thus closed off from the outside world. Not knocking you matey, just clearing up what I actually meant with the phrase.

Yeh I realised what you meant, I was just clarifying that even a system with the exact same components is no longer the same when linked to the internet using different equipment, systems and set ups and so whilst not as bad as the issue with PC's the issue remains none the less :)

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Over on the Vegas 2 forums, there has been talk about low framerates. I have seen complaints of low framerates on console games here and when one user on the Vegas 2 forums mentioned breaking glass, I got to thinking.

Many years ago, prior to when GR first came out (on the PC that is), it was generally thought that an add-in sound card wasn't needed to play games. When people would fire up the M60 and really let loose, people's framerates would tank. I originally had GR running on a 500mHz Celeron with onboard graphics and audio. With all the sounds going down, I ended up in the single digit framerate range. Adding a sound card to take audio processing from the CPU brought framerates up rather substantially.

I am beginning to wonder if some of the problems console players are seeing with framerates are due to sound, much as you allude to with breaking glass (it should make sound), not to mention all the polygons that that have to be created when glass breaks.

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I am beginning to wonder if some of the problems console players are seeing with framerates are due to sound, much as you allude to with breaking glass (it should make sound), not to mention all the polygons that that have to be created when glass breaks.

I've never even thought about that, but that is a really good point. When they promote the consoles the really try to sell it based on processing power and video rendering capabilities. Then most people look at the amount and type of ram the consoles has. I don't think i've ever read a single discussion on the sound cards used on these machines! My guess is that it is about the equivalent of onboard sound for the pc. Now I'm actually pretty curious. I'll have to see if I can find out what the ps3 and xbox use for sound.

I'm trying to purchase a sound card for my pc in the coming months so I'm actually curious to see the difference it makes on my pc. I've always used onboard sound, even though my new motherboard has a really nice 7 channel onboard sound, i'm curious to see if I can even hear a difference or see a performance increase. I've got a 5.1 logitech speaker system so it already sounds pretty good.

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Here is the thing, PCs with onboard audio use the CPU for processing the sound except for certain high-end boards made with a seperate Vidia chipset specifically made for audio (my nForce 2 board has the nVidia Soundstorm DAP) which takes over audio processing.

Like I said earlier, using a seperate sound card reduces the impact on game preformance as audio processing is no longer done with the CPU.

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Yep, I might not have worded it correctly but I was in complete agreement with you.

I searched a ton yesterday and couldn't find anything on the audio hardware for the ps3 and even posted the question on the ps3 boards and no one knew.

I think the FPS hits are like you say related to the cpu having to process all of that on it's own, and the lack of ram in both consoles.

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I can't remember for sure, but i'm pretty sure i discussed this with a programmer once. If i remember correctly, he said that consoles operate on what is technically onboard sound, but due to their nature as a closed system it's much more effective than what PC users think of.

I honestly dunno though, that could be completely wrong.

I highly doubt sound is the reason for FPS hits on games like vegas, though. There are a lot more sound effects playing than when glass hits at all other times, and it runs fine. Also, remember the the games are made with the platform in mind. iirc, 360 was Vegas' primary development platform. They would not have used any sound techniques its' hardware wasn't optimized for, so while you could see a framerate hit because of bad sound hardware, not a huge one.

It's not polygons either. It's a common misconception that those really matter anymore, they're incredibly cheap these days.

A lot of this won't probably make much sense, but the issue is usually just poor optimization of draw calls -

http://polypoke.spaces.live.com/blog/cns&a...1!460.entry

I haven't ever looked close at the glass in vegas, but i wouldn't be surprised if ubi did something stupid like use a unique shader on the broken shards. Whether they did or not, suddenly drawing in a lot more objects is a logical reason for a performance hit.

It could also deal with overlapping Alphas, which define the transparency of the objects. I don't know the specifics of the tech, but 3d engines just don't like seeing transparent objects through other transparent objects. Shards of glass obfuscating eachother AND the see-through particle effect at the point of impact, plus any plants in the room (which's leaves will be alpha mapped) could in theory cause a huge performance hit.

If not, don't forget that physics are also a concern. The computer has to initialize and simulate a new rigid body for every shard. There are a ton of logical reasons why the framerate would take a hit at a point like that without very careful optimization. The sound theory is clever, and worth looking into, but there are a lot of more obvious reasons for the vegas glass fps hits.

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My experience with lag on console is the same as on pc, the number of AI on screen or a huge visual effect like the tanker truck explosion in GRAW 2. There is one scene in Vegas 2 that starts with a huge firefight on a campus and lags initially, but, diminishes as you reduce the number of enemy.

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The Cell processor's Synergistic Processing Elements (SPEs) will take care of the audio-processing needs in the PlayStation 3, but developers will have to be careful about balancing system resources since many other game functions also run through the Cell. According to Sotaro Tojima, sound director for Metal Gear Solid 4, "There's no hiding the fact that [the Cell] will have to handle many duties including graphics, AI, and sound." Developers will have to make compromises.

There ya have it. Sound can impact upon how well a console preforms framerate wise.

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Over on the Vegas 2 forums, there has been talk about low framerates. I have seen complaints of low framerates on console games here and when one user on the Vegas 2 forums mentioned breaking glass, I got to thinking.

Many years ago, prior to when GR first came out (on the PC that is), it was generally thought that an add-in sound card wasn't needed to play games. When people would fire up the M60 and really let loose, people's framerates would tank. I originally had GR running on a 500mHz Celeron with onboard graphics and audio. With all the sounds going down, I ended up in the single digit framerate range. Adding a sound card to take audio processing from the CPU brought framerates up rather substantially.

I am beginning to wonder if some of the problems console players are seeing with framerates are due to sound, much as you allude to with breaking glass (it should make sound), not to mention all the polygons that that have to be created when glass breaks.

The M60 problem was not because of the sound in that way although it did have to do with the sound file. I think it was too big and they were in wav format so not compressed. MM1 also did this if used by more then 2 peeps on a server with over 16 players. Peeps with the audigy and even my xfi still experience this. What both of those weapons caused was increased stress on the host. You could watch the cpu and memory usuage go through the roof. Our GR1 server had a rule. No mm1 or support after 16 peeps. This is because it had to track all the info and distribute it to 16-30 clients. It was too much and the server would actually crash.

There was a mod a long time ago that i found that you could install to your server. It changed the sound of both those guns to the sound of an Sa80. No more lag. Sounded like crap though so i only tested it.

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