Console Games Having More Problems Than Before?

[WhiteKnight77]

With the lastest Ubi game being released on the X360 and PS3, both consoles featuring internet connectivity and hard drives, along with future consoles having similar abilities, and having problems, do you see more console games having the same problems as PC games do in the future?

There are complaints of connection problems for the PS3 and gamers losing ranks and achievments on the X360 and other types of bugs between the two. Devs may or may not patch the problems but that is not the point of this thread.

Consoles were once closed systems and games throughly tested prior to being sent to the respective console manufacturers for certification. That still holds true, but now with connectivity, console games have added other problems now that they didn't have before. Is it typical for devs for console games to just test over a LAN instead of the internet? It appears to be as there have been internet connectivity problems from different development studios. Patching also takes on a new demension. Unlike patches for PC games, they have to be sent to the console manufacturer for certification too, adding more time before a patch is available for console games.

Devs and publishers appear to have the same train of thought that they can release a buggy game now and patch later, even if one patch before they release information about a new game coming out.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that these new generation consoles are worth the hassle of release and patch like PC games or do you think it might eventually be something to consider before buying a console and console games. Remember console gaming is/was supposed to be easier, but with bugs and need for patches, it appears to be no more user friendly that PC games.

[Hatchetforce]

For every benefit there is an associated cost. The benefits of having a HDD are obvious. We are now beginning to see more and more the downside. Greedy companies unwilling to invest the QA time in a product before shipping. More than ever we really need to see a good old fashion lawsuit or interdiction by the FTC. Ubi needs to be careful about ###### off any employees. All it would take is evidence they knew there were issues and said screw it, we'll patch it later and they are in deep kimchi. Then you have another GH or Armada situation that speaks the only language these vipers understand.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Hatchetforce

[WhiteKnight77]

It's not just Ubi, but all development/publishing houses. I have heard about connectivity problems with a few other games that needed patching.

It's about the fact that once closed systems are now having the same problems as PC games face or have had in the past. I see it getting as bad or worse than PC games unfortunately.

[dporter]

I wouldn't say it's all developers though WK. Some of the connection problems on other developer's games really are on the user side rather then the server side.

There are some games though like you say where I have to ask myself whether or not the testers even tried to play on a official internet server and test it out. All I know is that if my job was to sit there and play online games all day you would have one dedicated employee. I wonder though how much feedback is taken to heart during this process? What I mean is do the developers listen to the testers even when they find problems, or are they on such a time crunch that there only option is to try and quick fix and hope no one notices? Who knows.

What game are you referring to anyways?

[WhiteKnight77]

Right now Vegas 2 is having some problems with both consoles, one moreso than the other. CoD4 had connection problems too. Not to mention previous games that have had patches to be released.

[CrowmanUK]

I always looked at the beauty of consoles in being that you turn it on, put your game in and play without any of the hassles that you get with a pc, now it looks like the console crowd are getting more of the problems that we get but without being able to mend the rigs themselves, now the console boys will be getting lag, patches, and more hardware problems, is there an option to defrag your drives on a 360/PS3?, and would it make a difference to the game you were playing?

Wonder if the next gen of consoles will resemble a pc's architecture more than they do now?

[dporter]

Right now Vegas 2 is having some problems with both consoles

That's the one I thought you were referring to, lol. Yep, definitely some unhappy customers over there.

I found this post on the ps3 boards hilarious today:

if enough people colpain to ubisoft they will make a patch, but im sure they already are so if we complained they would do it faster and it can come out in a couple days so post a message here telling everyone what the told you so everyone will have some info...

I don't think all patches are bad. I guess if the developer abuses that ability yes it's bad, but it's better then the alternative which is whatcha see is whatcha get.

[kleaneasy]

Its worth noting that issues with console games didnt appear on the arrival of a HD and internet connection. Prior there were games released which were buggy etc the difference between then and now is then they didnt get fixed lol

[Rocky]

Personally I think it's absolutely inexcusable for any of the big publishers to release AAA titles in such a condition that they do not even operate properly.

Ubisoft Community Manager "Hey, it's looking like multiplayer isn't working on Vegas 2"

Developer "Hmm, do yep, do you think we should'a tested that?"

To launch a game without adequate testing is ridiculious, and where once I used smirk a little when I saw forums fill up with people talking up lawsuits etc etc, I'm actually now at the point where I agree. There is NO excuse for it.

Publishers need taken to task over releasing goods that are not fit for purpose, just like any other industry.

The other point about consoles becoming more like PC's in this respect is spot on. Who would have though we'd have been seeing "wait for the patch" type posts about console games, when consoles first starting making it big?

I wish it wasn't so, I really wish console games were more reliable than PC ones, but the facts are they are not. It's the same old story becoming far to familiar. Before it was excused because consoles were new and developers were still learning to code for them.

Frame rates of 30 and less in Vegas? Multiplayer FUBAR? What's the excuse now?

There is no excuse - gaming consumers are being taken for the biggest ride ever, period.

[CrowmanUK]

Remember the old days? Back in the Spectrum/C64/Amiga days when stuff came out finished? Before the bad old internet became popular. If you do then you're old and lucky, now with this wonderful internet you can release a game before its ready and make money while you're still making the game! Cool eh? In the old days when a game was released it was finished and I can only remember one game that got a patch, and that had to be sent out on disc, cant remember what the game was though, i've been to bed since then.

I really feel sorry for the developers and gamers though, the devs would probably want more time to test it and the gamers would probably want them to have that time but the accountants decide in the end and if it goes out unfinished and gets patched then thats what happens and if its a big pile of donkey turds dont worry eh, the sequel will be so much better and have shader model 3.2.1.4 woohoo

/cynical mode off

Edited March 24, 2008 by CrowmanUK

[Sup]

Personally I think it's absolutely inexcusable for any of the big publishers to release AAA titles in such a condition that they do not even operate properly.

Ubisoft Community Manager "Hey, it's looking like multiplayer isn't working on Vegas 2"

Developer "Hmm, do yep, do you think we should'a tested that?"

Honestly, this is sony/microsoft's fault. Microsoft offers a unified system that they test for and usually works, but it seems very hard to fix on the occasions that it doesn't. Sony forces each developer to make their own online system, but it still has to interface with their architecture, and as far as i can gather that's hard to test. Both really dropped the ball.

[WhiteKnight77]

Personally I think it's absolutely inexcusable for any of the big publishers to release AAA titles in such a condition that they do not even operate properly.

Ubisoft Community Manager "Hey, it's looking like multiplayer isn't working on Vegas 2"

Developer "Hmm, do yep, do you think we should'a tested that?"

To launch a game without adequate testing is ridiculious, and where once I used smirk a little when I saw forums fill up with people talking up lawsuits etc etc, I'm actually now at the point where I agree. There is NO excuse for it.

Publishers need taken to task over releasing goods that are not fit for purpose, just like any other industry.

The other point about consoles becoming more like PC's in this respect is spot on. Who would have though we'd have been seeing "wait for the patch" type posts about console games, when consoles first starting making it big?

I wish it wasn't so, I really wish console games were more reliable than PC ones, but the facts are they are not. It's the same old story becoming far to familiar. Before it was excused because consoles were new and developers were still learning to code for them.

Frame rates of 30 and less in Vegas? Multiplayer FUBAR? What's the excuse now?

There is no excuse - gaming consumers are being taken for the biggest ride ever, period.

Last night, someone in Illinois was going to the courthouse to file the first class-action lawsuit. Yesterday someone in Michigan or Minnesota was filing another. The first lawsuit thread disappeared between 2 AM and 1 PM yesterday.

Games, whether on the PC or consoles should not need to be patched prior to release. Period. It's a shame devs are forced to rush products out the doors to publishers. The question is, will it change?

It also does not matter if it's Sony's or MS's fault. They can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Right now, they are part of the problem.

[Serellan]

both consoles featuring internet connectivity and hard drives, along with future consoles having similar abilities, and having problems, do you see more console games having the same problems as PC games do in the future?

No comment on specific titles, but of course when you introduce the interwebs into the equation, you will have more problems. You don't have to worry about the customer's wireless router or NAT settings if you are developing a game that doesn't use the internet.

[kleaneasy]

Last night, someone in Illinois was going to the courthouse to file the first class-action lawsuit. Yesterday someone in Michigan or Minnesota was filing another. The first lawsuit thread disappeared between 2 AM and 1 PM yesterday.

I'm unsure from the vagueness of this post but IF you are refering to the threads created in the Vegas 2 forums I can confirm those threads were locked when we discovered the original poster had in fact made the entire thing up. The company he claimed were dealing with the lawsuit knew nothing of it, so I locked the original thread with a note stating this and the new thread posted reporting it again a little later was removed so there was no confusion. This is the problem when people start posting false information, there is already a site reporting an apparently lawsuit linking to the thread this guy started yet anyone taking the time to read the entire thread, or maybe even just the first 2 pages would've known it was a false situation.

Of course if your not refering to that no worries but given that did happen yesterday I wanted to clear that up. I think you know based on the threads left in place I would not have removed any genuine post/ thread of that nature.

[Hatchetforce]

The biggest issue in the entire affair is of course the inexcusable nature of the game errors. These were not minor matters that were discovered by a group of expert glitchers. No, these were major and in several cases game stopping issues which are totally indefensible. Anyone that stands up and attempts to excuse them is nothing more than a class a dirt bag and a liar of the most transparent kind. It also damns their reputation for truthfulness the next time they make an announcement that is honest.

The second issue is that the offense having been committed was left to languish like a dead corpse rotting in the midday sun for days with no official response of size. Here is a lesson Ubisoft. You don't make these things go away by trying to downplay them. You come off like the corporate greedy sleaze balls you have shown yourself to be. The thing to have done would have been to loudly step up to the plate and lean into the pitch and announce in a booming voice, "Yes there is an issue and we are sorry for that matter. We are busting our ass to get to the bottom of this and we will. WE ARE SORRY (where have those words been) and we will patch the issue as soon as humanly possible and with that patch will come 2 free multiplayer maps and a new weapon free for download."

The problem is Ubisoft has public relations advisors like the kind of idiots that told Ted Kennedy what to do after Chappaquiddick. I didn't buy this game but I warned people on the board before the launch what was going to happen. People need to rip Ubisoft an ###### the size of a double door entrance. That is the only way to prevent this from happening again. This is the only type of retribution understood by a company that concentrates on the quick buck.

You would think by now they would have understood that by crafting a game carefully the sales will take care of themselves. But then again they couldn't protect the legacy of certain titles so how smart can they be?

Edited March 25, 2008 by Hatchetforce

[kleaneasy]

Anyone that stands up and attempts to excuse them is nothing more than a class a dirt bag and a liar of the most transparent kind

I'm not aware of anyone doing this

The second issue is that the offense having been committed was left to languish like a dead corpse rotting in the midday sun for days with no official response of size.

An official statement was posted on Friday

Edited March 25, 2008 by kleaneasy

[Hatchetforce]

Anyone that stands up and attempts to excuse them is nothing more than a class a dirt bag and a liar of the most transparent kind

I'm not aware of anyone doing this

The second issue is that the offense having been committed was left to languish like a dead corpse rotting in the midday sun for days with no official response of size.

An official statement was posted on Friday

Anyone downplaying this issue is part of the problem.

The key words being - of size. Also there needs to be some sort of compensation for the shafting Ubisoft handed out. And that official statement was nothing like it should have been. Mere acknowledgements do not cut it when the issues are of this scope and size.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Hatchetforce

[kleaneasy]

Anyone downplaying this issue is part of the problem.

The key words being - of size. Also there needs to be some sort of compensation for the shafting Ubisoft handed out. And that official statement was nothing like it should have been. Mere acknowledgements do not cut it when the issues are of this scope and size.

Before I say this I want to say I am not downplaying this at all, genuinely I am not BUT is there really anything more than acknowledge and establish the problem at this point that can be done?

Of course it would be great to perform a miracle and have all the answers but there have only been 2 working days (including today and launch day) since the UK release, 3 since the US and I dont know what more could have been done yet, aside from the game releasing without issue which ultimately would have been the best result, sadly this hasnt happened and thats beyond certainly my control anyway.

I'll be completely honest with you guys here what I seem to be seeing a lot of lately is insinuation and innuendo at individual persons being the problem, and not only isnt this true or deserved but it wont help solve the problem either. Comments such as "Anyone that stands up and attempts to excuse them is nothing more than a class a dirt bag and a liar of the most transparent kind." strongly suggest you feel individuals on the forums (as those are the ones communicating with you) are guilty of this and WK's post suggesting the forum staff did a vanishing act with law suit threads was equally unwarranted especially when those threads did not get removed, and a quick search would have shown this, they're still right here. I guess what I am saying is perhaps instead of directing issues at the persons as you currently seem to be put the focus on the actual establishment and changing that because despite what some seem to be thinking after recent conversations it isnt individual's you have issue with.

Edited March 25, 2008 by kleaneasy

[Hatchetforce]

Fact. The issues that are present in this game are inexcusable. They are unacceptable on PC where developers have to program for multiple configurations. But on a fixed platform there is not one single reason that doesn't fly in the face of truth and common sense that can excuse the errors of the magnitude witnessed in this game.

If you want to sleep better at night by pretending that Ubisoft is being honorable then that is your right. No amount of commenting from myself or anyone else will change that.

But in the eyes of many people - and I believe in fact - that what Ubisoft has done in this game is reprehensible, unpardonable, slimey, and dishonest. A box that had 4 player co-op on it when in fact this isn't the case is nothing more than a lie. It is time to stop excusing a billion dollar company that can't properly list game features. And that is actually a small matter. The larger matter at hand is their pushing out the door what is clearly a beta product.

It is time to stop excusing a billion dollar company that can't get a product out the door on a fixed platform that will properly connect online. If Ubisoft wants to be cheap and not run a public beta that is their right. But because they had that choice and could have tested it, the connection errors occurring are nothing more than the result of their greedy corner cutting and leave them without a leg to stand on. If they want to be cheap and not pay qualified engineers that is their right. But at the same time it provides them no room to hide when issues appear in games due to lack of programming skill. There is a reason their studios bleed talented personnel like a stuck pig.

You work for them K. That's fine. But your company screwed up, has been screwing up. If you look at the forums, what do players get? Four sentences that say they are looking into matters. No real remorse and no word of how they are going to make things up to purchasers. That's right, MAKE THINGS UP TO THEM. UBI SOLD AN INEXCUSABLY FAULTY PRODUCT. They need to get off their money grubbing greedy ass and state now, not later, now, how they are going to make things right. This is why companies like Bungie smoke Ubi easily. They understand it is about a group of people without whom you would have no job - the fans.

What you are suggesting is people be patient. The problem is buyers are asked to do this time, and time again. One product after another. It needs to end. Now. If you keep being patient, then companies like Ubi will keep stepping on customers using them as persons that have to pay to beta test a frustrating piece of unfinished software.

It has been more than 3 days in the US already. And if you look at when that excuse for a sticky went up from Ubisoft, well that was today. Customers were left here in the states with Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. That is hardly 3 days without a peep from people above Mods.

If you hate insinuation and innuendo so badly, then give us the names of the pinheads responsible for this abortion and we'll blame them. And someone is to blame. This crap of Ubi acting like nothing is wrong is just coming full circle back to the heart of this issue. So you can forget the patience bit. The product is inexcusable. So either give up the names or you can be what Ubi is using you for - a public shield.

I like you K. You are a formidible mod, fare, and a great addition to the Ubi boards. Frankly I think they are screwing you over as well by not stepping up to the plate yet expecting you to fend these people off when they have justifiable complaints.

And I am not suggesting anything, I am saying it. If you notice I didn't mince words. When all the evidence shows this could have been prevented then the developers are either downright incompetent - which means they should be fired - or else they did this without caring for the sake of saving a buck. I don't know which one of those points you want to defend. But the reason people are going after them, besides that they deserve it, is this repeating cycle of inexcusable actions has to end.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Hatchetforce

[WhiteKnight77]

The lawsuit I was referring to in the thread that was removed was started by FullyXtreme600r. That thread, which I posted in, was about a lawsuit in Illinois, not in Michigan that was found to be untrue. I posted about the Starforce lawsuit also being in Illinois in that very thread by FullyXtreme600, yet a search by myself turned up nothing. You might find it, but I haven't.

I have not insinuated nothing, I have stated a fact. I am aware of the second lawsuit thread that Bishop busted the guy on. Good of him to get the scoop on it.

As far as stepping up to the plate and accepting the fact that the company messed up, they should post it on the website and not just the forums. Fans have asked for information to be posted there, yet as of this time, nothing has been.

Klean, I can't help it if you are blinded by the corporate line, but the company has to start treating it's customers better. Gamers have been fed the same garbage for years and it has gotten really old. You talk about Ubi taking a new turn, yet they still shovel the same feces with each release of any game. Shame on them.

One has to wonder why a company releases a game 5 days before a holiday (a 3 day weekend in the UK no less) weekend. If they had been smart, there would have been somebody available to post that sticky long before or held the game til afterwards. It has been what, seven days since the game was released?

What really gets me is that this tread wasn't really about any one game, though it has unfortunately.

[kleaneasy]

Hatchetforce I don’t believe I have said anywhere that these issues are acceptable, I am lucky as a 360 gamer they don’t impact on me as they do the PS3 gamer but that doesn’t mean for one minute I excuse it, accept it or don’t work my backside off making sure their issues and anger gets through. Lack of visible shouting on my part shouldn’t be perceived as accepting

The lawsuit I was referring to in the thread that was removed was started by FullyXtreme600r.

Excellent thanks for that info. With that I’ve just done a search and now know which thread you meant and despite my previous comments it was me who removed it because of flame fest it became.

However aside from what caused it to be moved it’s important to know that the issue of which was the entire purpose of that claimed law suit is that the game didn’t provide 1000 gamerscore as Microsoft state all 360 games should.

What it didn’t say was that Xbox360 games must provide 1000 in gamerscore points without having to buy any additional content through download content etc. However and this is important, that content along with its gamerscore points can be provided free of charge through the marketplace post release

So what do the changes mean??Among some of the upcoming changes, the first of which we see in the recently released title Crackdown is that all disc based games must have 1,000 collectable points within the game, i.e. you the gamer must be able to unlock all 1,000 points without the need to purchase more content from the marketplace. Now we should clarify the developer CAN assign some of these 1,000 points to extra content however the new rules dictate this extra content must be FREE.

source

Furthermore the issue that thread raised had been found pre launch by some of us who had the game early, this meant we were able to notify early AND as a result levelup confirmed a fix already in the works, this has since been confirmed by me and others on countless occasions both internally and externally, in fact Xbox.com where its most applies that info is stickied.

In hind sight I would say it probably would’ve been better to state all that on closing the thread and leaving it in place as I did the other, but the forums have been hard work this weekend and frankly I’m simply not perfect lol

But my point in all this is that I keep seeing people raise huge mountains out of aspects which are not an issue, or very minor at best, ok so those who gamerscore whore are annoyed that they can’t get that 10g yet but it is being fixed and has no impact on their game play at all unlike the PS3 players whose issues do impact on their ability to play the game.

This applies to all situations not just this one but I can’t stress how frustrating it is to see people focus on what isn’t an issue or will be fixed all the while the real issues get buried under a mountain

Anyway I’m off on holiday shortly so if I don’t get back to this till next week I’m not avoiding the issue lol

[Kurtz]

I have had no problems with my console or any games I have ever bought for it, including games that were not worth keeping, every game played without issue off and online. Vegas has no issues for me whatsoever online, connection problems or whatever. There is nothing wrong with this game, the limited coop in story was well previewed prior to release, the limit to respawns is new but I don't see that as a deficiency since I don't like them anyway, the game has a much better SP and features and improved coop, there's nothing to justify the vilification that is going on.

How many of the people who are carrying on this rant have actually played the new Vegas 2. It is your right to opine but, how much is based on actual experience with the 360 game? I think these posts about the quality of Xbox games is getting hysterical and offensive. i think the tone should be moderated some.

[WhiteKnight77]

One walk through the Vegas 2 forums will see the depth of the complaints. Threads 2 days old are buried 8 pages deep if not further and yet unanswered by anyone.

PC gamers, wanting their own forum so they can seperate their concerns from those of the console for Vegas 2 have been told they wont get one which aggravates it even worse.

[Kurtz]

Ubi forums are not a venue for civil or intelligent discussion, a lot of the threads are complaints that the game is not Rainbow Six or Rogue Spear or Raven Shield or Black Arrow, that Ubi has ruined the franchise, that they shouldn't have a cover system. Even the moderator is a proclaimed Vegas hater and encourages the ranting.

I can only speak to the quality of the 360 product, the PS3 version may be having some real teething problems.

[dporter]

One walk through the Vegas 2 forums will see the depth of the complaints. Threads 2 days old are buried 8 pages deep if not further and yet unanswered by anyone.

Not hard to do when half the threads are locked for good reason, or when people simply post threads like this one here.

But i've been through the threads and there are complaints and there is also praise. Pretty normal with any game really. Again most of the complaints are from one particular console whose online services happen to be free and sometimes their reliability reflects that fact. A lot of the complaints are also the same old "this game is garbage" routine because they don't like the features of the game. I'm sorry but if the features are clearly advertised for the game and you don't like it and still buy the game that is a you problem.

Klean, I have to commend you on keeping a cool head and making your posts with a level head and with some class.

Edited March 26, 2008 by dporter