PS3

[Deadpreacher]

HF, deadpreacher, if you want to argue that one console is better, tunnel vision googling and research will find plenty of facts to make your points. However, if you look at the big picture, they're both amateurish and inept in their own isolated ways.

Penny Arcade.

Wait a sec here and sorry i did say it was my last repley. You both misunderstood me on one thing i have to clear up. Never and i mean never once did i say one is better than the other. Everything i said was about the disc space and how it aint all that doomed as some try to make it out to be!!!!!!! Never in anyway did i say the x360 was better or the PS3 is better get that out of your head right now! All i was doing was calling BS on the subject. I love all the systems and respect all the systems, after all i am a multisystem owner. Just becuase i call BS that the x360 is doomed is in no way saying its better or worse. If it seems i was sticking up more for the x360. Well yes thats true, but it was more of the moment of calling out BS.

[Hatchetforce]

Asking if one console is superior to the other in terms of processing power doesn't have a simple yes or no answer. Both consoles have strengths and weaknesses in the processing department. Graphically speaking the 360 GPU is more powerful than the RSX by itself. Fact. But the key is 'by itself'.

The architecture of the Cell bears some resemblance to a GPU. The Cell allows the PS3 to make up for RSX shortcomings because it can handle functions like vertex processing. If it requires mathematical calculations the Cell can show its capabilities. That is why it is humorous for people to make a blanket statement that the 360 has better graphical capabilities. You can't isolate the GPUs and compare them in a vacuum without regard to the processors with which they interact. The PS3 has 6 SPEs (the 7th one is reserved for the OS) that can be used in graphics processing to assist the RSX. They are doing this in development now but not with all seven. Not even close. But they are improving. As an example some devs are using one of the SPEs for dedicated hardware physics. More on that in a minute. Just to note you wouldn't want nor could you use all 7 for graphics.

The Cell moves massive amounts of information around like a GPU. One of the reasons the Cell kicks butt at Folding at Home is because the basis of that program finds its roots in code written for GPU architecture. It is the reason the Cell also handles HD decoding very rapidly. It does something that a GPU can do but no one has truly bothered with and that is the Cell is impressive in its ability to run hardware physics. Maybe with Nvidia purchasing Aegia we'll see some ground gained for PCs there as far as on chip physics support.

However the Cell initially had issues with functions that required what is more simply called decision making such as what you would see with AI. If software is specifically written for multiple PPEs (like the 360 which has 3) and you try to dump that onto the PS3 (which has 1 PPE) there is going to be an issue. You will see the hit. But when provided properly written code you get great results. Even Ubisoft had to recant Jade Raymond's statements for her. And as I have previously stated the AI in Uncharted speaks for itself.

One of the reasons the PS3 was initially given a black eye by some devs, including John Carmack, was synchronization. I am not a dev but even I was laughing at the Cell. The Cell was claimed to be a powerful processor. Basically with the PS3 you have a powerful processor and then 6 weaker ones. Then when Sony explained the processing load would be spread across the SPEs people shook their heads. It will never work. At that point even games on a PC had never been written for more than 3 cores. So now you are going to have each one of these SPEs doing different things (sounds great) and then these lighting fast returns will come back to the main processor to be organized and output instantly. Won't happen. (So we thought) One processor will always wind up waiting on this one or that one. This is why you saw some early PS3 demos lock up. It is difficult to debug multi-processor game architectures, especially when your secondary processors (SPEs) are weak and you have to spread out the work between more processors than you want or more than which your current capabilities allows you to code. Add to this the fact that dev kits had been in that hands of teams for only 8 months or so and disaster was waiting.

Here is the key though and why I, a one time PS3 super skeptic - and the posts are here to prove it - had to eat a big mess of humble pie. They did it. I keep hearing the guy from Firefox saying, "He did it. Damned if he didn't do it."

Largely thanks to research by Sony and Guerrilla as well as talent from other dedicated development teams they are nailing down the synchronicity issue in parallel processing on the PS3. Issues like Binary Search Partition trees (one of the methods used for collision detection) had to be rethought. The fact that SPEs on the pS3 have no prediction capability meant that they could tie up a SPE while conducting calculations. But companies like Epic have a different method - it is under NDA so I don't know exactly how it works. How ever they did it, the result was a good fit for their code and it does work. Boy does it work. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Sony bet the house on developers being willing to learn to optimize for SPE usage. Initial poor ports of 360 games had devs taking a 2-3 PPE optimized game and dumping it onto the PS3's single PPE and leaving 70% of the power and resources of the Cell unused. That is changing. As more companies such as Midway and EA moving toward the PS3 as the lead platform, better development tools arrive, and dev teams better utilize the PS3 architecture you will see a shift in the dynamics of development.

A few final thoughts. The Xbox 360 and the PS3 have the SAME amount of memory: 512mb. The only difference is that the PS3 splits it up between system and graphics and the 360 shares it as one pool. Again: The PS3 and the Xbox 360 both have the same amount of memory. The split does affect how the Cell can utilize it.

Bluray matters for a lot of reasons. But it should be remembered that Bluray matters to the processing capability of the system. Uncompressed audio sounds great. But it is important for other reasons as well. By having room for uncompressed video and audio on the disk, the processor is freed up even more to handle all of those things that make a game cool.

Sorry I couldn't give a yes or no answer or a shorter one. And it took a while because I am trying to work on 20 projects at the same time. Look, I like my 360 - well my 4th one now. It has and will have some great titles. I am really looking forward to HALO Wars. But I believe the true innovation and ground breaking lies with Sony. I think the PS3 is causing some good developers to discover things they never would have otherwise and such discoveries improve gaming. I think that capacity is only the first door that is being opened and even peripherals like the PSP have a great place in PS3 development future. I think the 360 is beginning to hobble game development due to DVD9 size and unlike learning the architecture on a PS3, with disc limitations you have what you have. I think as SPE usage becomes easier the 360 will hurt multiplatform development even more. I don't think Rockstar was kidding when they said disk size was limiting GTAIV. And I don't think they were kidding when they said the advantage of the two PS3 exclusives was they could build huge game environments.

Haze, which is having some development issues but it is going to allow a player to go from start to finish and never see a loading screen. But then again Too Human is having issues and I am looking forward to that game as well. I have been waiting on that since it was planned for the PS1 and shown at E3 in 1999. GDC is going to open some eyes. Word has it we will see Resistance 2 there. There is a thread elsewhere on this forum discussing some of the features. And of course, my most anticipated, MGS4. For me I think this topic is about played out.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Hatchetforce

[Sup]

You misunderstood me completely. However, re-reading that post, i certainly should not have written it so tired, or in such a hurry -- it's completely a mess, and it's my fault i got my point across so badly. Sorry.

Two important points of clarification, though --

Mass effect's flaws are the team's fault, not the xbox's. I have nothing but respect for the people over it bioware, it is very hard to make a game that big without a lot of errors cropping up, and they were working on technology (ue3) thay had no experience with. However, the thing is, it's just an unreal 3 engine game. Several on the 360 (gears, turok, stranglehold, to name a few) run better and look better. I could go into all of the little details of why mass effect could run so poorly, but it's not actually very interesting. Just trust me, on the technical side of art, there are a lot of ways things can go wrong.

As for uncharted, i've been following the game closely since the PS3 announcement when it was teased. And I never said the art team was responsible for the game as a whole, merely the visuals.

And a third bonus one: I don't know ###### i was thinking, i meant to type 'levity', not brevity. Obviously penny arcade is a joke, it's comic. That was the point of my posting it. The joke.

[Rocky]

Extremely interesting read. I've downloaded that mp3 and will listen to it tomorrow.

This thread is probably a record breaker for the number of long posts!

[dporter]

Extremely interesting read. I've downloaded that mp3 and will listen to it tomorrow.

This thread is probably a record breaker for the number of long posts!

I thought this was where we campaign for the "console fanboy" forum award.

[Hatchetforce]

Extremely interesting read. I've downloaded that mp3 and will listen to it tomorrow.

This thread is probably a record breaker for the number of long posts!

I thought this was where we campaign for the "console fanboy" forum award.

I wish there were a shorter answer for some of these matters but there isn't. If you are brief it often only serves to generate more questions. Sorry about the encyclopedia.

[FA sear]

Asking if one console is superior to the other in terms of processing power doesn't have a simple yes or no answer. Both consoles have strengths and weaknesses in the processing department. Graphically speaking the 360 GPU is more powerful than the RSX by itself. Fact. But the key is 'by itself'.

The architecture of the Cell bears some resemblance to a GPU. The Cell allows the PS3 to make up for RSX shortcomings because it can handle functions like vertex processing. If it requires mathematical calculations the Cell can show its capabilities. That is why it is humorous for people to make a blanket statement that the 360 has better graphical capabilities. You can't isolate the GPUs and compare them in a vacuum without regard to the processors with which they interact. The PS3 has 6 SPEs (the 7th one is reserved for the OS) that can be used in graphics processing to assist the RSX. They are doing this in development now but not with all seven. Not even close. But they are improving. As an example some devs are using one of the SPEs for dedicated hardware physics. More on that in a minute. Just to note you wouldn't want nor could you use all 7 for graphics.

The Cell moves massive amounts of information around like a GPU. One of the reasons the Cell kicks butt at Folding at Home is because the basis of that program finds its roots in code written for GPU architecture. It is the reason the Cell also handles HD decoding very rapidly. It does something that a GPU can do but no one has truly bothered with and that is the Cell is impressive in its ability to run hardware physics. Maybe with Nvidia purchasing Aegia we'll see some ground gained for PCs there as far as on chip physics support.

However the Cell initially had issues with functions that required what is more simply called decision making such as what you would see with AI. If software is specifically written for multiple PPEs (like the 360 which has 3) and you try to dump that onto the PS3 (which has 1 PPE) there is going to be an issue. You will see the hit. But when provided properly written code you get great results. Even Ubisoft had to recant Jade Raymond's statements for her. And as I have previously stated the AI in Uncharted speaks for itself.

One of the reasons the PS3 was initially given a black eye by some devs, including John Carmack, was synchronization. I am not a dev but even I was laughing at the Cell. The Cell was claimed to be a powerful processor. Basically with the PS3 you have a powerful processor and then 6 weaker ones. Then when Sony explained the processing load would be spread across the SPEs people shook their heads. It will never work. At that point even games on a PC had never been written for more than 3 cores. So now you are going to have each one of these SPEs doing different things (sounds great) and then these lighting fast returns will come back to the main processor to be organized and output instantly. Won't happen. (So we thought) One processor will always wind up waiting on this one or that one. This is why you saw some early PS3 demos lock up. It is difficult to debug multi-processor game architectures, especially when your secondary processors (SPEs) are weak and you have to spread out the work between more processors than you want or more than which your current capabilities allows you to code. Add to this the fact that dev kits had been in that hands of teams for only 8 months or so and disaster was waiting.

Here is the key though and why I, a one time PS3 super skeptic - and the posts are here to prove it - had to eat a big mess of humble pie. They did it. I keep hearing the guy from Firefox saying, "He did it. Damned if he didn't do it."

Largely thanks to research by Sony and Guerrilla as well as talent from other dedicated development teams they are nailing down the synchronicity issue in parallel processing on the PS3. Issues like Binary Search Partition trees (one of the methods used for collision detection) had to be rethought. The fact that SPEs on the pS3 have no prediction capability meant that they could tie up a SPE while conducting calculations. But companies like Epic have a different method - it is under NDA so I don't know exactly how it works. How ever they did it, the result was a good fit for their code and it does work. Boy does it work. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Sony bet the house on developers being willing to learn to optimize for SPE usage. Initial poor ports of 360 games had devs taking a 2-3 PPE optimized game and dumping it onto the PS3's single PPE and leaving 70% of the power and resources of the Cell unused. That is changing. As more companies such as Midway and EA moving toward the PS3 as the lead platform, better development tools arrive, and dev teams better utilize the PS3 architecture you will see a shift in the dynamics of development.

A few final thoughts. The Xbox 360 and the PS3 have the SAME amount of memory: 512mb. The only difference is that the PS3 splits it up between system and graphics and the 360 shares it as one pool. Again: The PS3 and the Xbox 360 both have the same amount of memory. The split does affect how the Cell can utilize it.

Bluray matters for a lot of reasons. But it should be remembered that Bluray matters to the processing capability of the system. Uncompressed audio sounds great. But it is important for other reasons as well. By having room for uncompressed video and audio on the disk, the processor is freed up even more to handle all of those things that make a game cool.

Sorry I couldn't give a yes or no answer or a shorter one. And it took a while because I am trying to work on 20 projects at the same time. Look, I like my 360 - well my 4th one now. It has and will have some great titles. I am really looking forward to HALO Wars. But I believe the true innovation and ground breaking lies with Sony. I think the PS3 is causing some good developers to discover things they never would have otherwise and such discoveries improve gaming. I think that capacity is only the first door that is being opened and even peripherals like the PSP have a great place in PS3 development future. I think the 360 is beginning to hobble game development due to DVD9 size and unlike learning the architecture on a PS3, with disc limitations you have what you have. I think as SPE usage becomes easier the 360 will hurt multiplatform development even more. I don't think Rockstar was kidding when they said disk size was limiting GTAIV. And I don't think they were kidding when they said the advantage of the two PS3 exclusives was they could build huge game environments.

Haze, which is having some development issues but it is going to allow a player to go from start to finish and never see a loading screen. But then again Too Human is having issues and I am looking forward to that game as well. I have been waiting on that since it was planned for the PS1 and shown at E3 in 1999. GDC is going to open some eyes. Word has it we will see Resistance 2 there. There is a thread elsewhere on this forum discussing some of the features. And of course, my most anticipated, MGS4. For me I think this topic is about played out.

Thanks for the thorough response. I do understand that there is no simple yes or no answer, and I certainly was not expecting one. I do remember you having a good chuckle at the expense of Sony when the PS3 first came out, and I also remember you taking a "I will wait and see" stance in regard to purchasing one. I guess a lot of people are now eating that "humble pie", and after listening to that broadcast you posted a link to, it seems as though Sony may have to keep their kitchen pretty busy, as they will probably be making quite a few servings for all those who may have to partake. I'm sure Sony will not mind sparing a few man hours to "bake up" a few extra servings.

I still cannot buy a PS3 as Sony has hosed me just too many times (completely unrelated to gaming), and at this point it is simply a principle for me, but I really don't have to go OT and get into all that here.

@MODS

I am quoting this entire post as I think is worthwhile having it on the first page people usually click on (the last one).