GRAW 2 not in Top 10 Xbox Live Games of 07

[CR6]

http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2008/01...es-of-2007.aspx

2007 Top Xbox 360 Titles (UU’s)

1 Halo 3

2 Gears of War

3 Call of Duty 4

4 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas

5 Call Of Duty 3

6 Crackdown

7 Oblivion

8 Guitar Hero II

9 Forza Motorsport 2

10 Lost Planet

Any hypotheses why GRAW 2 isn't in there this year after a strong showing in 2006 (#4)?

http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2006/12...live-games.aspx

[5timechamp]

id venture to say that the bulk of the people who gave Graw its good rank are only casual fans of the series who have since moved on to games like COD4 or prefered the "coolness" of the R6: Vegas cover system...most gamers consider all 3 series as being tactical shooters so they migrated to the newer games......most "gamers" want some sort of prize for pwning so the unlockables in the latter 2 games proved a big draw.

[Nutlink]

I can't believe Lost Planet beat it out though. I still find that surprising.

[BS PALADIN]

GRAW 2 was only popular for 3-4 months then its disappeared from the top 10. I think it made a brief 2 week reappearance when one of the map packs came out, but disappeared again after that.

Tbh even getting away from whether GRAW 2 is a good game or not, it's had way too many problems.

1 Nowhere map - this has got to be the dumbest idea anyone has every had. All it did was split the community in half from the day it was released.

2. Search engine problems - Remember when you couldn't even find a game for over a month.

3. Lag - Especially on the co-op side. People would just drop out unless the host had a great connection. And im not talking about high numbers here. Way too much bandwidth needed to host or even just play this game.

4. Flawed Ranked Rooms - Since GRAW the ranked rooms have been unfair, flawed and broken. GRAW 2 wasnt any better. They really need to look at HALO 3 or COD 4 for inspiration when designing the ranked system.

Those 3 things alone guarnteed that GRAW 2 didnt stand a chance of being a hit online game.

Edited January 17, 2008 by BS PALADIN

[Cons72]

All of that, plus it tried to be what all those shooters listed in the Top 10 are, but did not do as good a job of it.

If they had stuck with the formula of GR - GRSS, it probably would have remained in the Top 10, as it would have been unique enough to keep people playing it. Of course, with all the problems it had, it may have been doomed, anyway.

[CR6]

Those 3 things alone guarnteed that GRAW 2 didnt stand a chance of being a hit online game.

Nice analysis. I played a bit of GRAW 1 on Live when it first came out, but I didn't renew my Xbox Live account all of last year so just played some GRAW 2 SP so no idea what the Live experience was like. Thanks for the insight!

[Colin]

Too much like the original, came out too soon after the first one.

And a lot of tec problems.

[Alderei]

I think Colin's the most observant, but its too bad, really. GRAW 2 was in many ways (not all) a superior game to GRAW 1.

GRAW 2 made some great "first seen" additions to game play, from Cross-Com v2.0, to the in-mission lighting effect changes, to the sounds and explosions. The multiplayer component has somany maps and gametypes as to dwarf almost any other game play experience available. The addition of the Co-Op Evasion missions breathed a whole new life into the Co-Op experience, and in general, the many maps are all fun to play.

GRAW 2 Multi-player adversarial matches are a bit more problematic, but that has more to do with the community than the game. Team Sharpshooter and Solo Sharpshooter with unlimited respawns are game modes built for the Halo gamer atttention span. Its a mode that exists to assauge the "ego" of those that can't handle losing. If the community was more involved in Last Man Standing matches and Siege matches, there is the liklihood that the online experience would be more unique, thereby more out-standing from the crowd.

I'm playing a lot of R6: Vegas right now, but its only because Ubisoft created this addictive PEC thing. Honestly, I still like more what Ghost Recon is, I'm just not playing it right now. I don't particularly like Scott Mitchell, so maybe a new installment of GR could incorporate PEC. [GR] at least added experience to your soldier throughout the campaign, right?

[BS PALADIN]

I agree with some of your points ( lightning on the terrain is fantastic ) and disagree with others. I play siege nearly exclusively but to me it doesn't stand out from the crowd. The decision to include only 2 spawns is baffling. And yes the [GR] rpg elements were incredible ( as well as the dossier ) but all those advanced features have been removed or scaled back to make Ghost Recon more mainstream friendly ( mainstream players aren't that dumb anyway ). To me GRAW 2 had promise but poor map design ( linear maps, no matter how big, will always become boring really fast ) and really awful clunky controls spoils the experience. Not to mention camos that don't work, even easier to use OTS, no recoil on guns, M107 ( deserves to be mentioned on its own its that much of a problem ) and concrete bushes. All these things ( and too many more to mention ) make GRAW2 instantly forgetable.

But i will give due praise for the classic map remakes. Excellently done and make the game somewhat playable.

[5timechamp]

- also the instant gratification casual gamer is the most common graw gamer online....this means that everyone is always playing the same 2 maps. For people with friends list its not an issue since they can set up their own matches.....for people who bought the game later and decided to give online a chance were disappointed that all their match searches resulted in sharpshooter on Hq....I wouldnt blame anyone for moving on after seeing that everytime they logged on to play.

[doubletap]

LOL, look at the games in that list. Aside from forza2 and oblivion would you really judge how "good" your tac shooter is based on whether or not it's in the same company with those games?!

(oblivion isn't an xblive game is it?)

Are Dream Theater or any other truely talented band not "great" because they aren't in the top 10 with Britney and Snoop Dog and the rest of those....."artists"? You guys need to consider who's putting these games in the top ten and decide if that's your crowd.

Anyway I'll take a stab at why it went from #4 to #??. Because the casual gamers (a.k.a "Them") buy and play anything that has shooting in it, because it has new maps and weapons to play the same old quake arena run 'n gun that they play in every other shooter. They soon became tired of it for the following reason: too much compromise by Ubi, who tried to appeal to mainstream gamers, while keeping some of the tac elements (barely), so in the end it's too arcady for GR fans, and too tactical, or rather, not quite arcade enough for the casuals.

Edited January 18, 2008 by doubletap

[bigcat75]

the casual gamers (a.k.a "Them")

They're like locusts. Moving from game to game, lol.

[Ox Pson]

Blind siege is no longer Blind siege, it's more Random siege, 99,9% of the time the siege base is opposite to the attacking spawn, its to predictible.

Siege bases are always stuck in som corner, which you can't flank!

Like Paladin said, the bushes are made out of concrete, you can't go through them or shoot through them.

The only maps you can hide or go through or shoot through a bush is the remake maps which I love, so the problem doesn't lie in the game-engine, it's more of a sloppy work from the map designer!

And your are always running at 100% (or 200-300%) with your gun up, ready to shoot.

The M107 is why you should not be able to shoot a sniper with out to have to zoom, not the quick zoom, you have to use the R-stick button.

Nowhere the map, yes maybe that was a problem, but if they changed so that you could join the lobby anyway and if a DLC map was choosen it would say someone in the lobby is missing that map and if the host start that map the person(s) without the DLC map would be kicked from the room.

[Deadpreacher]

I believe MS needs to do some kind of mod control. Something like a default mod manager in the guide menu to turn on or off so the Dev dont have to worry about it when they want to add new things to the game. New stuff is great, but if it splits up the online players there is something that needs to be done. Some games do it right where they still allow anyone to join up until the mod is in affect. So unless they can find a way to do that for every game they need to make a simple default mod manager. That you can easly turn on and off as simple as looking at your friends list!

[Becky89]

It died because everyone went on to COD 4 Hardcore DM which is in all reality the real Ghost Recon 2 with the way it plays:

*You can hide in the grass in ur ghillie suite

*u can kill with 1-2 hits

*You can actually hide in the bushes

*Shoot through walls

*u use ur actual weapon sights not some crappy reticule that when something bright goes behind it cannot be seen

*has true innovation

*can go inside buildings (all rooms acessible)

*Furthermore has SPECTACULAR camoflauge

Now looking back at that list what does it remind u of? thats right the Ghost Recon 2 wishlist! Thats why GRAW2 died, it was nothing what the fans wanted whereas COD 4 Hardcore mode was everything we wanted.

And thats why COD 4 is so popular and GRAW2 isn't, it stole all the classic GR players on XBox Live including me.

[Xx RTEK xX]

http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2008/01...es-of-2007.aspx

2007 Top Xbox 360 Titles (UU’s)

1 Halo 3

2 Gears of War

3 Call of Duty 4

4 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas

5 Call Of Duty 3

6 Crackdown

7 Oblivion

8 Guitar Hero II

9 Forza Motorsport 2

10 Lost Planet

Any hypotheses why GRAW 2 isn't in there this year after a strong showing in 2006 (#4)?

http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2006/12...live-games.aspx

GRAW 2 is not good enough to be in there. Although it is a hell of alot better than Lost Planet. That game was stupid.

[Kurtz]

I would put Vegas first and then GRAW 2, followed by COD 4 and GOW. The rest of that junk I could care less. And does this measure the best game, best sales, or most played on Live, if the latter, what are Oblivion and Guitar Hero doing on this list?