Question about ROE

[mark2000]

I have a question about the Combat ROEs, namely the purpose of 'Assault'.

During assault, the AI will take shots if they deem them to be accurate enough and only fire in single shots. Unfortunately, it seems that even if something so simple as a single piece of leaf was infront of the enemy, the AI still thinks that they cant get a clear shot so they wont even move a muscle. In suppress mode, however, the AI will start shooting at mere sight of the enemy, behind cover or not, and even though most of it is just inaccurate blind-firing, they could still manage to bring down groups of 5 or more in 5 seconds without even breaking a sweat.

Realizing that, I stopped using Assault for my synchronized attacks and used Suppress instead. Now I'm wondering if there's still even a reason for me to use Assault mode.

Could explain to me the actual use for it in the game?

I could just easily find it out from a military book but then again, bad AI can turn the world upside down when you least expect it.

Edited January 16, 2008 by mark2000

[doubletap]

There may be some differences between the two modes in GR that I'm unaware of, but as for reasons to use one or the other, I can tell you why I use both (and depending on what school of tac gaming you come from, you may think this is the stupidest thing you ever read). I determine which mode to use based on more than merely their effectiveness. I use each depending on the situation and what results I want, but I base the choice entirely on what I think would be the real world decision, as well as what type of team I am using. Reason? Immersion. To me it is everything when playing GR.

For example a Delta Force or SAS hostage rescue obviously wouldn't call for the overwhelming violence that a SEAL assault on an enemy camp would. (I'm not saying the SEALS are sloppy, I'm saying their effectiveness against larger forces is partly based on their ability to rain absolute hell on them.)

I stopped using Assault for my synchronized attacks and used Suppress instead. Now I'm wondering if there's still even a reason for me to use Assault mode.

Although the mode is called "suppress", sometimes it is appropriate to use it in what is actually an "assault". Synchronized attacks are probably an "assault" but for the volume and type of rounds down range required you would actually need the suppress mode.

For getting from A to B while killing on sight, assault mode is better, if for no other reason, for the non-use of nade launchers.

But back to immersion, if I'm playing one of the above scenarios or the other, it's more immersive for me if the A.I.'s actions, comms, and the sound of weapons around me are appropriate for that scenario. I don't want to see and hear grenade launchers and full auto blasting against walls during a hostage rescue. And on the other hand it's great fun, and rewarding, to meticulously set up an assault and suddenly unleash the end of the world on the enemy.

Win or lose, I want a realstic experience, and the different results between the two modes help accomplish what I want from the game in that respect.

Edited January 16, 2008 by doubletap

[mark2000]

There may be some differences between the two modes in GR that I'm unaware of, but as for reasons to use one or the other, I can tell you why I use both (and depending on what school of tac gaming you come from, you may think this is the stupidest thing you ever read). I determine which mode to use based on more than merely their effectiveness. I use each depending on the situation and what results I want, but I base the choice entirely on what I think would be the real world decision, as well as what type of team I am using. Reason? Immersion. To me it is everything when playing GR.

I don't consider that post stupid given the fact that we're both thinking of the exact same thing when playing these types of games, namely immersion and realism, but like I said before, bad AI can turn the world upside down when you least expect it and at times like those, all I can do is swallow my gut, remind myself that I'm only playing a game and, inevitably exploit every gameplay fault that exist in that game especially when it's trying to tell me that a certain tactical method that would definitely work in the real world can simply go to hell.

I'm not trying to be offensive though so please don't take it the wrong way. I love realism and immersion as much as you probably do after all. Long story short, no game is perfect but then again, it would really feel nice if things actually go the way they should in a real life setting.

Although the mode is called "suppress", sometimes it is appropriate to use it in what is actually an "assault". Synchronized attacks are probably an "assault" but for the volume and type of rounds down range required you would actually need the suppress mode.

glad to know I'm not the only one who feels the same way about that subject.

For getting from A to B while killing on sight, assault mode is better, if for no other reason, for the non-use of nade launchers.

I hope you're not talking about having an AI squad go to a location in 'assault mode' since, based on alot of personal experience, this just ends up being a 10 second trip to the netherworld 99.9% of the time. But if you're talking about having your own squad that you control set to assault while slowly advancing then yeah, I completely agree with you on that one. WAY too many times has it happened to me when our cover got completely blown because my teammate started firing mindlessly before I could even get a clear shot at the hostile since he was set at suppress. This is probably the only time I use assault but, then again, I still worry about screw-ups since the "single-shots only" characteristic of assault can be dangerous when the hostile manages to survive the first hit because, for some reason, the AI's rate of fire is so damn slow that it feels like they always reload after each and every shot.

off-topic:

speaking of realism, I still wonder why a group of elite soldiers that are considered to be swift, SILENT, and deadly (with great emphasis on the SILENT part if it isnt too obvious already) mostly carry guns that are noisy as hell. (i.e. the starting kits)

This is the main reason why I downloaded the M4 SOPMOD mod.

........although sometimes, it's great fun to set up ambushes for those suicidal ###### that is the enemy AI when I'm not using suppressors.

Edited January 16, 2008 by mark2000

[doubletap]

For getting from A to B while killing on sight, assault mode is better, if for no other reason, for the non-use of nade launchers.

I hope you're not talking about having an AI squad go to a location in 'assault mode' since, based on alot of personal experience, this just ends up being a 10 second trip to the netherworld 99.9% of the time.

Yeah, I should have worded that better. I meant when you're on the move, and you want your team to engage targets without actually destroying the city, lol, then Assault is best. But remember, "best" to me means as realistic as possible, or more specifically, what feels more real.

I know we can't do much about the occasionally stupid A.I. but I can usually work around that stuff. One of the biggest problems I have is a squadmate firing unnecessarily while in Recon. I notice this more in mods than in the default missions for some reason.

Edited January 16, 2008 by doubletap

[Creatch]

I think we all agree on the fact that the AI in the game on either side can be frustrating. Tangos on full auto hitting you from god knows where and your guys putting out enough lead to make a large bridge and hitting nothing.

Then the moment of clairity and everything seems to work just right and it almost seems easy. As far as which ROE to use depends on what classes of grunt you have along and what your objectives are. I gear for the mission. Rescues = no support guys, All out FF's and I bring the SAW's and things that go boom. I only use two of the ROE's myself. Recon and Suppress.

And hence the reason I got so into playing co-op online with real players. 9 or more communicating on comms and working like a real ghost team to get the mission done.

I can remember the first time I did Rattenkrieg with 12 and took on the center area on two sides at the same time. What a racket. Scared the crud out of my roomate. Makes you shudder at the thought some guys do this for real.

[

I know we can't do much about the occasionally stupid A.I. but I can usually work around that stuff. One of the biggest problems I have is a squadmate firing unnecessarily while in Recon. I notice this more in mods than in the default missions for some reason.

Alot of modders and scripters tweek the AI in their mods. I know I have for Tourney missions and others.

Tends to make the friendly AI a bit unreliable and unpredictable.

Works well for tango AI, and sometimes to the extreem. Did one tweek and the tangos could see further and were 1 shot 1 kill experts. Had to change that.

[mark2000]

And hence the reason I got so into playing co-op online with real players. 9 or more communicating on comms and working like a real ghost team to get the mission done.

I can remember the first time I did Rattenkrieg with 12 and took on the center area on two sides at the same time. What a racket. Scared the crud out of my roomate. Makes you shudder at the thought some guys do this for real.

reminds me of all those good times in Raven Shield even though my atrocious ping always held me back from enjoying those moments to the fullest.

BTW, a few new tips I've learned from tinkering with the AI:

first one:

There were also times when they didnt react even in suppress mode but when I popped a headshot on one of the baddies, they suddenly started shredding everyone into confetti. It seems that for the most part, they are more likely to start shooting when they finally consider someone as a threat, regardless of ROE, than to draw first blood on the clueless guys. Not sure why but this was always how it happened most of the time.

Assault seems to be an exception to this for the most part but, then again, the AI's tendency to switch from Spider-sense to blind/deaf when switching from recon to assault nerfs the whole thing close to useless already.

the other one:

Ironically, it seems the AI become the best of the best during a firefight when in recon mode. One on occasion, I had a 2-man team sneak up towards the south side of an island when sentries spotted us. I took out all of them and, just for kicks, left the entire team for the AI to control. I watched them on the tacmap as 20 or so troops ran to their position. The most amazing part was that more than half of them got wiped out from well-placed shots before the 2 got overwhelmed and died. It was only after that event when I realized that I actually left the two on recon mode during the entire thing and couldnt say anything except "what the hell?! ".

Edited January 17, 2008 by mark2000

[WytchDokta]

first one:

when I popped a headshot on one of the baddies, they suddenly started shredding everyone into confetti.

They are firing on your lead (waiting for you to shoot first before they shoot)

[doubletap]

when I popped a headshot on one of the baddies, they suddenly started shredding everyone into confetti.

They are firing on your lead (waiting for you to shoot first before they shoot)

And that's one of my favorate features.

I hate it when my guys leave me out to dry though, lol. Reminds me of "Stripes", when the 2 guys were gonna fess up for being out after lights out, and they both go to step forward but Bill Murry fakes and let's his buddy step out alone.

Yeah.

[doubletap]

Difference between Assault and suppress:

In assault mode your squad runs from point to point and fires at targets in sinlge shot, usually no grenades. Good for getting squads around quickly when it's safe to do so.

In suppress mode (and this is a beautiful thing to watch) they should walk not run, at somewhat a "room clearing" pace, and the pointman walks ahead then signals for the squad to move up. Apparently they only do this if there are enemies in the area, otherwise they run, same as assault mode. They may also switch ROF to auto and launch/throw grenades.

Try this: start them in assault, then while enroute switch them to suppress and watch 1.the hand signal, and 2. the change in tactics. Very cool.

Edited January 28, 2008 by doubletap