RvsA/ Spawn Camping Awareness Day?

[[HOT]Keyser]

Well, boys and girls, its time for your Team HOT awareness thread this time started by a different author. This time we're discussing the dreaded SPAWN CAMPING.

Now, lets be quite clear. I am not talking about the tendency of one team to close in on another in a pub game and basically destroy them mercilessly at their spawn. That is just a natural occurence in first person shooters which people must learn to deal with as i have said before. That being said, there is a real problem with spawn camping and the boring nature thereof. This occurs in No Respawn TDM, scrims and matches; AKA the preferred gametype of this community. The problem is that people simply have figured out that camping in ones own spawn on many maps is the best strategy. On the last several TDM scrims i've played the following has happened. One team holds back with absolute patience, the other team does their best to follow suit but eventually in order to kill the overwhelming sense of boredom creeping up their spine someone peeks a corner and gets picked off. Then everyone retreats yet further on the team that is ahead and the slow sneak game begins. In other words it makes for a whole lot of sitting around and on maps with bushes (God i hate Crashsite and The Cut), people just sit in bushes which is even worse because you have virtually no chance to see them first unless you're prefiring bushes and therefore giving away your position. This slow plodding gametype lends it self to no strategy what so ever other than to stay back, stay back, stay back, and let the other team make the first move while you sit in a concealed position.

Simply put, such a boredom fest doesn't deserve to the be primary gametype of such a promising game (Despite the bugs yet to be addressed) when a gametype like RvsA is sitting just around the corner. RvsA for those of you who haven't spent much time playing it is basically Counter-Strike on crack. In RvsA one can employ many baiting strategies which will actually force shifts in the defense to bolster the defense of one ADAT or another offering a very dynamic gameplay experience. Strategy and moving as a unit effectively and with good timing is paramount in this game mode, while in TDM teamwork doesn't really matter other than to basically spread out and sit in a cozy lil corner. RvsA keeps everyone in motion at all times and can produce a rather suspenseful gameplay when combined with the unknown factor of having yet 3 places that one can be attacked.

Now given all this you might be asking, why aren't more teams playing RvsA in competition? Well from what i've heard from a few teams, people aren't familiar with the gametype and haven't taken the time to learn it. Well here we go, heres a list of the Do's and Don'ts of RvsA. First of all, one must keep in mind how these matches are scored. You get a point for either keeping an ADAT alive at the end of a round when defending, or alternatively destroying an ADAT. Every map has 3 ADATs on it therefore your objective should be to keep at least 2 ADATs alive or destroy 2 ADATs alternatively, if you successfully do that you can tell yourself that round was a success. This is not to say however that you have won a round rather you have won a certain # of points. If each team destroys 2 ADATS in the first 2 rounds then the score is 3-3, NOT 1-1, keep that in mind. Now that being said there are a few tricks that one can employ, the first of which is the delayed bomb. Often times teams will just get to an ADAT after clearing the area, plant the bomb and blow it immediately. What this is, is a waste of lives. What i mean is that if you have 4/6 people still living after taking out ADAT 1, send 3 of them to go after ADAT 2, and have the planter hide somewhere. If they succeed taking ADAT2, then you can blow one of them and instantly be at full strength for ADAT 3, alternatively, if those 3 people fail, you can blow the ADAT you've been holding and be back to full strength for ADAT2, basically the game allows you a mulligan in that sense. Other tricks to keep in mind are the paramount importance of scouts and scramblers. Personally i would almost never bother with an assault kit in this mode unless on defense and you had sufficient points to afford a GL. The advantage of being able to tag and detag is paramount in this game-mode and is what makes attacking a secured position possible and feasible unlike in TDM. Lastly, i will say that one can always employ the usual baits and misdirections present in almost all shooters to lure people to ADAT1 with one person making a lot of noise while 4 people head to ADAT2.

The end result is that RvsA keeps the game moving at a much faster pace, is more engaging and generally a hell of a lot more fun than TDM. Furthermore some of the little kill bugs that have been occuring since 1.03 like the 2nd kill of a kill swap not counting in TDM. I implore all of you, stop subjecting yourself to the spawn camping antics of TDM, play some RvsA, and hit us up for some scrims. Xfire: Keysersoze99

[Colin]

This subject has been talked to death already

[GHOST_DesignatedX]

Keyser' date='Aug 20 2007, 01:29 PM' post='489856']

In other words it makes for a whole lot of sitting around and on maps with bushes (God i hate Crashsite and The Cut), people just sit in bushes which is even worse because you have virtually no chance to see them first unless you're prefiring bushes and therefore giving away your position. This slow plodding gametype lends it self to no strategy what so ever other than to stay back, stay back, stay back, and let the other team make the first move while you sit in a concealed position.

Lol, well said.

[[HOT]Keyser]

This subject has been talked to death already

Pretty sure that RvsA hasn't been discussed in any great message which was the underlying purpose of this thread. Maybe you should read it?

[ARDelta]

So is Team Hot going to camp in their own spawn for the whole week similar to when they used the M99 relentlessly to promote M99 awareness?

[chilly-willy]

Keyser' date='Aug 20 2007, 05:48 PM' post='489864']

This subject has been talked to death already

Pretty sure that RvsA hasn't been discussed in any great message which was the underlying purpose of this thread. Maybe you should read it?

I feel as though there was alot of talk about RvsA but maybe it was just during the beta. I don't really play on line enough to be on a team such as teamsnot.... just kidding. So, anyway, I apprciate you making me aware with your awareness campaigne targeted at making the unaware aware. It's much appriciated.

[[HOT]Keyser]

So is Team Hot going to camp in their own spawn for the whole week similar to when they used the M99 relentlessly to promote M99 awareness?

We'll be camping in TDM from now until the end of time, meanwhile contemplating suicide all the while.

[Rocky]

I'm not sure if this is a spawn camping thread or a RvA tactics thread, but it was a good read anyway!

[[HOT]Keyser]

I'm not sure if this is a spawn camping thread or a RvA tactics thread, but it was a good read anyway!

Its an RvA thread with a eye catching title.

Edited August 20, 2007 by [HOT]Keyser

[ruggbutt]

Respawn games are for CS boogereaters.

[Tinker]

Respawn games are for CS boogereaters.

Couldn`t agree more. But that`s MY opinion.

[[HOT]Keyser]

Respawn games are for CS boogereaters.

Couldn`t agree more. But that`s MY opinion.

Well, there is no respawning in CS so im not really sure what the hell you're talking about. Unless you're playing CS deathmatch which is an abomination for the most part. RvsA is basically CS with very very limited respawns.

[Tinker]

Well you can`t spawn rape if they don`t spawn. People cry for realism but want to automagically come back to life when they are dead? 1 Team against the other, you die, your team has a gap to cover fast. That`s more like it for ME.

[[HOT]Keyser]

Well you can`t spawn rape if they don`t spawn. People cry for realism but want to automagically come back to life when they are dead? 1 Team against the other, you die, your team has a gap to cover fast. That`s more like it for ME.

But tinker, understand this, if the team who gets the kill isn't retarded their win probability after going up even 1 kill is astronomical. Why? Because the nature of movement in this game is such that agressive play is entirely futile. So covering this gap fast, is only going to get you killed. I mean no respawn in pubs works fine and all, but in matches? No way. Keep in mind im not advocating for TDM with respawns because it would be even worse but the extremely focused combat of RVSA which nicely scales respawn times due to the # of ADATs left is great. If you are down to your last ADAT it takes 45 seconds to respawn! That is an eternity. Realism shouldn't come at the expense of fun and playability (is that a word?). Gun mechanics and movement being close to life is fun, then again we aren't advocating to sitting in buildings for days looking out at empty plains waiting for the enemy to come over the horizon. Why? Because even in real life that can make you go insane (See: Jarhead). Objective based assault gameplay centered around objects other than frags are the only competitions that have thrived in realism type games. Games like Quake4 where you can run and gun at warp speed and twitch reactions are the requirements thrive on DM. Games like BF2? Games like GRAW2? The nature of the gameplay restricts the fun being had. RvsA is the way to go.

P.S Thats not even considering that the ONLY good TDM maps are Arroyo and Fort. Anything else is far too large/ covered in bushes.

Edited August 20, 2007 by [HOT]Keyser

[Tinker]

I just voiced MY opinion, like everyone else around here lately.

This subject has been talked to death already

You sure?

[[HOT]Keyser]

I just voiced MY opinion, like everyone else around here lately.

This subject has been talked to death already

You sure?

I understand thats your opinion, doesn't mean its not subject to my scrutiny.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

Keyser' date='Aug 20 2007, 09:07 PM' post='489913']

Anything else is far too large/ covered in bushes.

Mmmm... large and covered in bushes... that's good TDM maps. Fort and Arroyo are good DM maps in my opinion.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Since team hot is new to GRAW2 I'll give them a hint on dealing with this.

#1 your fav since you like GL's. Most maps there are ways to GL the spawn. 1 or 2 on spawn from yours to there's rather you hit them or not will get them moving.

#2 Carry an mp5. Peek your corner and stab the well known bushes with a few single shots. if you get an orange blotch switch to auto or primary and good by camper.

#3 Save your hand nade for use on bush or corner, and smoke the bush so they can't see, then see #2

I can't say we've been camped so far.

[[HOT]Keyser]

Thanks for the tips Roco, we know em too. But the problems in this thread remain.

Edited August 20, 2007 by [HOT]Keyser

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Lets add one more

4) send in your weakest player saying he can do this and watch for the muzzle flashes of the enemy as he's killed. (and pay attention to the sound) That gives you locations. Snipe, Gl, hand nade as needed from there. Also make sure he is good with directions and comms as he can help direct you via deathcam. I call that the "Weakest link strategy"

Keyser' date='Aug 20 2007, 04:02 PM' post='489928']

Keyser' date='Aug 20 2007, 09:07 PM' post='489913']

Anything else is far too large/ covered in bushes.

Mmmm... large and covered in bushes... that's good TDM maps. Fort and Arroyo are good DM maps in my opinion.

Large and covered in bushes are good tdm maps for fun pub time. Which i totally understand is your job wolfsong. But i'm talking purely in the competitive arena here which still appeals to a good segment of us. The fact of the matter is you guys did a brilliant job of making a wonderful mode called RvsA which no one is playing. Bushes in a really small tactical setting like 5v5/ 6v6 as most no respawn TDM matches are creates a no win situation. Its sit on your ass or be killed. This usually results in an 8 minute round with 1-3 deaths out of 10 people. That does NOT make for fun gameplay. I'll pub the cut and crashsite all day. I'll just whore the m99 and promote our prior awareness day. However in matches where things start to count. I feel like im fighting your game rather than cognitive thought processes from another person.

Since team hot is new to GRAW2 I'll give them a hint on dealing with this.

#1 your fav since you like GL's. Most maps there are ways to GL the spawn. 1 or 2 on spawn from yours to there's rather you hit them or not will get them moving.

#2 Carry an mp5. Peek your corner and stab the well known bushes with a few single shots. if you get an orange blotch switch to auto or primary and good by camper.

#3 Save your hand nade, and smoke the bush so they can't see

I can't say we've been camped so far.

Roco heres a hint. I know you think you're all that. But you beat us in 1 match barely because we admittedly got cocky. . Heres whats wrong with your tactics.

1# This is quite obvious and well known but impractical on maps like the cut and crashsite / AkA my primary complaints.

#2 Mp5s still make noise. Those of us with ears will find you and kill you as you approach pegging every bush you see as i said before.

#3 Save your hand nade.... yeah real novel suggestion. I'm sure we never would have thought of that on our own.

What you haven't done is solve anything due ot this thread. So when you want to add something constructive to the situation please do. Until then you can sit back down.

I use the mp5 like that all the time. Remember i am talking distant bushes. Not only close ones. You may hear it but it's not that easy to get a direction on

It wasn't ment to bust on you. You guys are new to Ghost Recon. it's different here.

[Novelty]

So basically Team Hot just doesn't like GRAW 2?

Whenever I play GRAW2, I play with the assumption that stealth/defense is the point of the game, and the key to success...I guess I need to start rushing more.

But shouldn't I just play CS, Quake, FEAR, any other FPS if I wanted to play a game where rushing and twitch style tactics are the only way to win?

Edited August 20, 2007 by Novelty

[Burawura]

Keyser' date='Aug 20 2007, 11:29 AM' post='489856']

The problem is that people simply have figured out that camping in ones own spawn on many maps is the best strategy. On the last several TDM scrims i've played the following has happened. One team holds back with absolute patience, the other team does their best to follow suit but eventually in order to kill the overwhelming sense of boredom creeping up their spine someone peeks a corner and gets picked off. Then everyone retreats yet further on the team that is ahead and the slow sneak game begins. In other words it makes for a whole lot of sitting around and on maps with bushes (God i hate Crashsite and The Cut), people just sit in bushes which is even worse because you have virtually no chance to see them first unless you're prefiring bushes and therefore giving away your position. This slow plodding gametype lends it self to no strategy what so ever other than to stay back, stay back, stay back, and let the other team make the first move while you sit in a concealed position.

This problem is nothing new; it happens alot with certain maps. I remember one of my old GR matches... pow camp and it was static inserts The other team's strategy was to camp the entrances whether they started inside or out. The match turned into a 4 hour camping session, with no more than a handful of kills on either side. We eventually won, but it was sooo stupid.

I think this problem is a direct result of poor map design. Any time you find that camping your own spawn is the best strategy, I believe that means the map was not designed with enough thought or playtesting, has too few chokepoints, and/or is simply too small for normal matchplay.

My point being, it's not just because it's TDM that this problem has appeared. TDM can be just as fun as any other MP game mode if the map is set up for it. That being said, even though I haven't tried RvA yet, I am really looking forward to it for the same reasons Keyser pointed out. Say what you want about CS (which was a great game in the beta stages imo), but it has proven that objective-based game modes can make for great competition. But I don't think TDM is going anywhere...we just need better (*cough* bigger with no artificial "walls" and chokepoints *cough*) maps and TDM will be back to normal.

[[HOT]Keyser]

Edited August 20, 2007 by [HOT]Keyser

[Easton]

This problem is nothing new; it happens alot with certain maps. I remember one of my old GR matches... pow camp and it was static inserts The other team's strategy was to camp the entrances whether they started inside or out. The match turned into a 4 hour camping session, with no more than a handful of kills on either side. We eventually won, but it was sooo stupid.

I think this problem is a direct result of poor map design. Any time you find that camping your own spawn is the best strategy, I believe that means the map was not designed with enough thought or playtesting, has too few chokepoints, and/or is simply too small for normal matchplay.

My point being, it's not just because it's TDM that this problem has appeared. TDM can be just as fun as any other MP game mode if the map is set up for it. That being said, even though I haven't tried RvA yet, I am really looking forward to it for the same reasons Keyser pointed out. Say what you want about CS (which was a great game in the beta stages imo), but it has proven that objective-based game modes can make for great competition. But I don't think TDM is going anywhere...we just need better (*cough* bigger with no artificial "walls" and chokepoints *cough*) maps and TDM will be back to normal.

QFT. I like TDM, just some of the maps encourage teams to camp their own spawn. I understand and enjoy the more tactical aspects this game promotes in competition, but at the same time it seems that the team that stays on their own half of the map and has the mental fortitude to camp in one spot will win. This does little to take advantage and showcase the mechanics and quality of this game. Some of the maps, arroyo and fort for example, require more movement and FPS skill (yes, I used it again roco ) to win, and I like this. I guess all I am saying is we need better comp maps for TDM as opposed to some of these great-for-pub maps.

Also, I was weary about RvA for comp play, but having scrimmed it a few times, I have to say it is extremely fun and certainly elevates Teamwork, individual skill and just plain fun as opposed to get-lucky-nade-kill-at-start-and-pull-back-and-camp-bush-for-10-long-minutes. But I certainly understand that, at least the vocal part of the graw community, enjoys this the most.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Easton

[ruggbutt]

Keyser' date='Aug 20 2007, 11:49 AM' post='489907']

Well, there is no respawning in CS so im not really sure what the hell you're talking about. Unless you're playing CS deathmatch which is an abomination for the most part. RvsA is basically CS with very very limited respawns.

Here's where the reading comprehension part is important. I didn't say that GRAW2 was like CS in any shape or form. I said that respawn games are for CS boogerater types. I'm sure you know what I'm alluding to here. Kiddies who talk all kinds of smack fully knowing that the interweb protects them from harm or physical injury. The kind of kiddies who ask a question, don't like the answer and tell you to F Off. Those kind of CS boogereaters.

I'm sorry you didn't understand the first time. I typed this response slower so you'd get it.