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How about.........

D'ya think GRIN would take on the challenge if there were sufficient numbers of guaranteed purchasers, (the mechanics of that would need some thought) to create the next GRAW, based on what customers wanted? I mean you couldn't get better than a customer specified game, could you?

Anyone know what the guaranteed number of sales would have to be? How big is the dedicated GRAW following?

I table this idea as a concept without knowing what the legal limitations might be and whether it's even legally feasible but it's an interesting thought, aye?

Edited by tecmic
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I'm a big supporter of GRIN and GRAW(s).

But come sign up at BFS. The future is there.

Agreed with Monolith, Rabbi.... BFS is the future of this genre. I don't care if RSE gets the PC GR franchise back, they're still a part of UBI and that is the root cause. John and the gang at Black Foot Studios are worth the look, trust me.

-John K.

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How about.........

D'ya think GRIN would take on the challenge if there were sufficient numbers of guaranteed purchasers, (the mechanics of that would need some thought) to create the next GRAW, based on what customers wanted? I mean you couldn't get better than a customer specified game, could you?

Anyone know what the guaranteed number of sales would have to be? How big is the dedicated GRAW following?

I table this idea as a concept without knowing what the legal limitations might be and whether it's even legally feasible but it's an interesting thought, aye?

Sorry Tecmic, but this is like saying Ford will only make a car when a certain number of people promise to buy it, sight unseen. Ain't gonna happen for Ford... but... I think you're missing the bigger point...

GRiN was handed one of the most successful, most LOYAL franchises in PC gaming history. Only DOOM, Quake and Unreal bring the marketing power that we have, or I should say "had"... when it came to an entire community centered behind a game and an idea.

Either Ubishaft wanted to take the franchise in a different direction (my guess), or GRiN convinced them to do it. Either way, they HAD a build-in 100% locked market. I pre-paid for GRAW based on RUMORS for silly sake. I waited on buying GRAW2 but I STILL BOUGHT IT. No more. Ubi took advantage of my loyalty and my dedication to a genre and a game and I got one product that should have shipped with BETA watermarked on the background, and it's $50 successor that might solve some of the bugs, but with little content.

They had two product generations of built-in purchasers and speaking only for myself, I got Ubi-Shafted.

Will I still check in here from time to time? Absolutely. If some of the modders come thru with content I will want to know about it. Will I buy an expansion pack from Ubi? NO. I am done with giving them my money. I am like a person in a co-dependent relationship and this time I'm breaking the cycle and simply saying "ENOUGH!".

I hope to see you all on the Black Foot Studios forums...

-John K.

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I think kretzj, what tecmic id trying to say is GRAW or should that be any Tactical squad based shooters are a small market, especially realistic ones.

So Ford wouldn't mass produce a three wheel car just because there's a small market intrested! Too much investment for a small return.

P.s. I love GRAW2, and think It's a great improvement over the first, and I liked that too.

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Hi Kretzj,

I understand what you're saying but your analogy isn't appropriate! Committing to buy a car before you've seen it is light years away from pre-buying a £30 ($50) computer game.

I can't work up sweat about spending £30 on a bad computer game like some here on this forum. Ce la vi, you win some, you loose some. Having said that I don't often buy unless there's been a demo to try first, in any case, it can always be improved but I like GRAW2, just wish there were more missions. Maybe soon?

The general opinion on this forum has been that UBI called the shots. To suggest that GRIN failed to maintain the Ghost Recon reputation is pretty harsh.

My suggestion re. a customer specified GRAW3 was really a tongue-in-cheek side swipe at the never ending complaints. In reality it would most likely be impossible to produce a game which satisfied the many ' I wants' that have been published here.

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My suggestion re. a customer specified GRAW3 was really a tongue-in-cheek side swipe at the never ending complaints. In reality it would most likely be impossible to produce a game which satisfied the many ' I wants' that have been published here.

Yeah, I kinda got that impression. And you're right. But the idea that giving the customers something they specifically stated they did NOT want hasn't exactly produced record sales for Ubisoft. It HAS, however, proven to me that I've got a pretty good bead on Ubisoft's priorities, and how the PC gamer doesn't really fit into them.

It's more an issue of the "I don't wants" being posted in the next forum down last year, and Ubi tossing that aside as if they know better than we do what's good for us.

It's my real-life job to get treated like a damned child. I don't need some snotty, half-assed video game publisher to do that for me. They can't deliver what I want, and I'm taking my money elsewhere. As kretzj suggested, I'm waiting patiently to see what comes out of BFS.

Ubi better wash that spoon before they give it back, too...

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Hi Rabbi,

I can certainly sympathise with the frustration that, watching a publisher ruin something you liked, produces.

I saw it in another game I used to like. On the other hand, I'm not sure 'half assed' is an accurate description of a successful computer games publisher like UBI!! We might not like what they do but they are a big player.

It's been said many times, PC games are no longer 'king'. If you were UBI's CEO I'm sure you would not be particularly interested in some 'half assed' pc gamer who doesn't like what you're doing to his favourite game. What the hell, pc gaming is on it's way anyway.

It'll backfire!! Picky gamers who are never satisfied, will tip the scales by voting with their debit/credit cards and not buying future GRAW's. UBI will simply opt out of pc games that don't produce a healthy turnover.

You guys that stop buying GRAW will be actually contributing to it's future death!!

Edited by tecmic
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It'll backfire!! Picky gamers who are never satisfied, will tip the scales by voting with their debit/credit cards and not buying future GRAW's. UBI will simply opt out of pc games that don't produce a healthy turnover.

You guys that stop buying GRAW will be actually contributing to it's future death!!

Doesn't seem so simple, man. I mean, first it's hard to believe they made a dime off GRAW. GRAW2 as well. But they did sell some copies of each title. In the latter case, they sold copies largely on the premise that things were getting fixed or updated from GRAW. Amazing that with the SP and MP demo's out there, a lot of people bought on blind faith.

So the problem is that even if we decide it sucks, we have to BUY it first to make that call for ourselves. By the time we figure out it's not what we want, someone else already has our money.

So they make the promises that things are updated or changed or fixed or whatever, and we generally end up buying it to find out for ourselves.

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Most of us agree that [GR] was a game that was unique and set the standards for sqad-based tactical shooters both SP and MP. It has had a good run has it not? Hell, I STILL see ORG GOLD on store shelves! We have to relalize that a game like [GR] rarley comes along, and let's face it, we may never get that same feeling again in this genre. In any case, publishers/developers ALL want the next blockbuster, "standard setting", game and to do this new things have to be tried and unfortunatley the vast majority fail. But lets face it, when UBI'S senior management looks at the books and it's trends, it's all leaning to kiddie-consoles and as a result we get dumbed-down games (not that GRAW is!) This "dumbing-down'" is something that is permeating all aspects of our lifes including television, books and music and is only getting worse. (of course this is just my opinion).

In any case, I love GRAW 2 and when these excellent modders get rolling I think we my be pleasantly suprised...

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i think that the most gamers of graw and graw2 never ever come here

they are the random gamer that play what ever they can or like.

most here are eagerly awaiting something that is [GR] worthy, trying to find that special feeling in the next game. (yes this does resemble an addiction)

when [GR] came we never experianced any thing like it, and it was hard in the beginning, and it had a steep learning curve,

now because of that learning curve we liked it so much, it took effort and planning.

now we are trained in [GR] and get graw and graw 2, but we already have the skills obtained in the [GR] times.

so we lack that experiance and some of the habits and tools we were used to, and we still compare it to [GR],

some try to say that realisme lacks in graw and part 2, yet i have not seen any soldiers today with an OICW running around.

last night there were like 400 - 450 people online 2100 CET.

so it feels like it is growing, slowly but growing

when i look in the mod forums i see great things, we just have to be patient, but for other things, if you miss something or think something should be different, talk about it, what do you miss, can it be modded in or out ?

i just read too many posts that do not point to the specific and personal ideas, it is all (most of it) general whining..., we all know Ubi and how they work, but there are great modders and on and off duty grinners that are willing to provide information or help, but the questions and requests have to be asked. (politely ???)

sorry for this whining post about the whiners :D

lets get creative and constructive rather than negative and making it look like ###### while it is not. (opinion)

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I think GRAW2 is better than GRAW1, but not by much. Some good things on GRAW one were changed. Why? I got no idea. The ability of choosing your own load out of weapons was changed to premade kits, very bad choice. The last patch took away the ability of seen who's playing on the servers...WHY?. The sniper rifle can be use for "run and gun", WHY?? In reality the 50Cal can only be use while prone, using a bipod. Why a player using a real heavy rifle can run as fast as one using the MP5?. If you never play [GR], you can relate to the complains people talk about here. Why the game (G2) can't download new maps like GRAW1? Another step backwards. I can't comment about SP, since I don't play SP. Multiplayer is ok and fun to play, but not as good as [GR] was at MP. Bottom line is. GRAW2 will never be as good as [GR], Unless some modder that play [GR] change lots of things about GRAW2. Sniping in [GR] was an art form. You could see far, well beyond that you can see in GRAW. You never saw snipers running around. Snipers use to "stalk" their pray. For GRAW2 to be suscessful and logn lasting, we need more maps, maps that are playable in all game mods. Better weapon availavility(Kit choosing) and fix weapon characteristics. How many games last 5-6 years? not many. That's why people still talk about [GR]. Rabbi, stay safe. And stop saying that I stole GRAW2. I pay for it ;) BTW, Rabbi is a [30+] Player, serving in Afghanistan. More that some of us are doing for this country, so if he wants to complain, he can. :thumbsup:

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rabbi can complain cause he also does constructive posts, unlike some others...

my point being is what you wrote, [GR] this [GR] that, it can never be the same cause it is a totally different game with a UBI name "ghost recon Advanced Warfighter"

i played [GR] untill just before graw, sp and coop with friends (not like tourneys or ladders)

and i can go in to things like throwing handgrenades over my buddies, which was not possible and a lot of other small details that just did not work.

i have some issues with graw and graw2, but it is a different game,

so the constant flashback to [GR] is kinda useless if it is always in a negative tone, not only does it not encurage the devs nor makes for good reading, but it also is trying to get to a high which you have set as unobtainable by any thing else in your mind and thus you keep kicking at the same rock time and time again.

the issues like not being able to pick your own kit in coop and tvt is kinda ######ty though i do see some constructive things in it as it is possible to get what you want if you look at what others lose when they die. this is kinda fun and if you do a team match you can/should coordinate who takes what.

not being able to see who is online in which server is a big loss i totally agree, but if we ask politely maybe we can get some answeres rather than being all mad about it.

i don't know how this works in graw2 but in graw one if you only picked a hand gun, you could outrun every body. if this is lacking in graw2 weight for MP games then i think it sucks. and would want that back aswell,

the .50 should be harder to use, but then again i've seen clips of guys standing upright and shooting it. (guys being twice or three times my size .) (for me the .50 should not even be in the game..., i'd rather see a 57 or p90 as it is excactly dedicated to the ranges graw facilitates)

as for maps, i think that will come in time, it is somewhat harder to do new maps in graw2, but i see a castle day in the map modding section.

so i am not trying to make any ones point invalid, or look like it does not matter, but when you want something it is best to bring it in a soft tone

and maybe in a clear uncluttered thread.

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One positive that no one can ever take away from GR- the modders here are freakin' AWESOME.

[GR] wasn't without its bugs and glitches, and some of that only ever got addressed through the modders. Got it.

Modders kept [GR] alive for years. But I don't recall that they had to provide the game's life support less than one fiscal quarter after the game's release. I guess they just don't make 'em like they used to.

At least this community's still full of great folks...

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In my opinion I think GRAW 2 is dead in the water. The GRAW 2 community hasnt got much bigger since the release and I don't think that GRIN is going to be supporting the game much longer. Basically look at it this way. UBI paid GRIN to develop GRAW 2 and basically they are not funding GRIN anymore. GRIN in return says why continue making patches/updates to the game when we are not getting paid for it?

GRAW 2 needs some changes such as Anti-Cheat, even maps, added maps, and bug fixes. If you start of the top of a map honestly it doesnt matter you usually win. The maps are so uneven its crazy. Some better variety of maps would also be nice. Castle Day anyone??? But last night while playing it was bad. Atlas (a teammate of mine) and I were playing and it seemed that every time you would get killed it would be getting killed by someone running full speed. Was it the server? Ping spikes? or honestly, and I quote Atlas, "It probably looks the same way when you kill someone." The game is a good game but the game play such as team death match isn't very good at all. Needs a lot fixed...

November - Is a good month...

(I was born in November)

Edited by [MAD]Inferno
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Im also disaoppointed. GRAW2 is an expansion pack to a very poor game called GRAW1. I didnt made same mistake and didnt bought GRAW2 just after initial hype. To be honest i dont se much diference between games like GRAW and MOH:A , exept moha has better graphics and more realistic story. After GRAW 2 demo i thought we have [GR] back but I was very wrong. GRAW2 has so many irritating thigs that i cant even name them all, lets give a few which comes to my mind :

- friendly AI is one of the worst i saw in any FPS, so called ghosts are retarded, can't find cover, cant shot back and gets block on simple obstacles when give route more complicated than going down the street.

- Missions are extremly linear and scripted, ememies spawn like in Duke Nukem, sometimes in most imposible ( s already checed) places.

- Game is regular kill_whole_army_by_yourself shoter which pretends to be a realistic tac shoter. It was patchetic when i checked final stats and noticed that i have ~68 kills and my entire team has 3 kills ! And I was happy that i managed to lead them in one peace through the mission.

- Story is infantile , hollywood_like and illogical. I was blow away by _WARNING SPOILERS_ ! chose of a drop spot in last mission, middle of the bridge just between two enemy strongpoints, and BH just got away without even providing short minigun support. It was so stupid that i just start to laugh :)

- weapon handling is CS like, you can walk with M99 scoped in and shot with perfect accurancy.

- i just loved when i tried to flank enemy and received "you are leaving a mission area ! get back imidietly " , but ive already said about extremly linear missions.

- draw distance ... do i have to say more....... i will :) i had hillarious situation during night mission. I didnt managed to perform mission silently and just after alarm i got to good shoting position and waited to ambush enemy reinforcements convoy. I zoomed AT rocked launcher and saw a truck head lights in a distance, they got closer and closer and finally i noticed that there are headlights comming from nowhere moving along the street and than suddenly truck appered ( got into draw distance) .... do i have to comment that situation ? :rolleyes:

That would be all for tonight :) the list is very long. To sum it up , i realy dont like GRAW2, didnt bough it and i wount buy and new GR game by Ubisoft. Now i wait for CoD4, maybe it is arcade but it proly gona be fun to play... GRAW is also arcade shoter after all.

As Monolith mentioned , the future is in BFS. I hope they wount let us ( [GR], R6 fans) down.

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- friendly AI is one of the worst i saw in any FPS, so called ghosts are retarded, can't find cover, cant shot back and gets block on simple obstacles when give route more complicated than going down the street.

- Game is regular kill_whole_army_by_yourself shoter which pretends to be a realistic tac shoter. It was patchetic when i checked final stats and noticed that i have ~68 kills and my entire team has 3 kills ! And I was happy that i managed to lead them in one peace through the mission.

Download Operation Storm HERE and you will see otherwise. I couldn't get a kill for myself as my guys were mowing down the waves of tangos.

Oh, and prepare to die a lot. Hope that's not too arcadish for you!

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- Missions are extremly linear and scripted, ememies spawn like in Duke Nukem, sometimes in most imposible ( s already checed) places.

That's the part that annoyed me the most. I mean I check an area with the satellite view, check it with binoculars, and then check it through the scope of my sniper rifle, so I'm 100% sure that it's less populated than the bottom of the mariana trench, and then when I get in 50m distance BAM! Enemies everywhere! So, duh... :wall:

Edited by Malleus
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- friendly AI is one of the worst i saw in any FPS, so called ghosts are retarded, can't find cover, cant shot back and gets block on simple obstacles when give route more complicated than going down the street.

- Game is regular kill_whole_army_by_yourself shoter which pretends to be a realistic tac shoter. It was patchetic when i checked final stats and noticed that i have ~68 kills and my entire team has 3 kills ! And I was happy that i managed to lead them in one peace through the mission.

Download Operation Storm HERE and you will see otherwise. I couldn't get a kill for myself as my guys were mowing down the waves of tangos.

Oh, and prepare to die a lot. Hope that's not too arcadish for you!

I played Storm and while I appreciate the fact that the modders are learning the tools, the spawn problems persist... enemies pop out of nowhere... I'm locked on with my sniper rifle and it's clear, then I take two or three steps, trigger a hidden switch and suddenly I have dozens of ###### of supertroops coming at me. I finished the three missions in Storm but it doesn't remove the linear nature of the missions... it just turns up the volume (literally).

And the friendly AI is just as stupid... they stand up in the middle of the road at the opening and pop off several hundred rounds... you would think that while under enemy fire they might crouch down one position...

-John K.

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