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GRAW2: Anti Cheat is needed ASAP


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Well we have a range of opinions, that's fine. The point is that if the handful of populated servers start having their own version of what's "best", such as 3 respawn caps in TDM, then all it does is suit a particular group of people. For those of us who wish to play this game without these sorts of restrictions, we have no real choice given the lack of populated servers.

Ultimately a range of important issues have been raised, from gameplay balance to cheating to spawn issues. As mentioned, GRIN is working on a patch, so I'll wait to see what they can provide in the way of changes before providing more feedback or considering whether to continue playing this game.

Edited by PersianImmortal
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Well we have a range of opinions, that's fine. The point is that if the handful of populated servers start having their own version of what's "best", such as 3 respawn caps in TDM, then all it does is suit a particular group of people. For those of us who wish to play this game without these sorts of restrictions, we have no real choice given the lack of populated servers.

Ultimately a range of important issues have been raised, from gameplay balance to cheating to spawn issues. As mentioned, GRIN is working on a patch, so I'll wait to see what they can provide in the way of changes before providing more feedback or considering whether to continue playing this game.

Why do you think they are populated servers?

Could it be that players like it? If not they would leave.

Lack of populated servers is the problem of the game, not the server hosts, host a server yourself and see how hard it is to get it populated. Dam hard is the word and it costs $$$$ to do it, my money, alot of admins monies & donations. This game is on a rocky road. Our server is a 3 respawn server and we can fill it twice over, but because of GRIN & UBi we can not host the second instance without buying another server box.

That is a problem, not I can't find a populated zero respawn server.

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  • 4 weeks later...

For all of you here who remember GRAW and the similar A/C problems, you'll also remember there was a separate forum started there for the GRAW A/C discussion. It was hoped that ideas could be formed in teh community that GRIN/Ubi could take hold of and develop the A/C into something more than a digital paperweight.

Without going into the reasons it didn't work out, let's just say that someone here with knowledge of A/C systems and a fairly responsible reputation around here could possibly talk the moderator team into setting up a subforum here with limited access for the serious A/C folks to talk safely on the subject, without it being readily available to potential cheaters as well.

Just a thought. Becuase cheaters suck, and they know it...

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IT would be a rough road as that there are vastly differeing opinions on what would be good implementations on the AC and what a community could do. There are communities out there but some very vocal people dislike them or a particular one. Agreement in how to proceed or use as examples will likely NEVER happen with the admins here.

The only thing I think that was ever really agreed upon was the need for logging which GRIN has yet to provide.

Unless GRIN beefs up the tools and improves what they have in a usability aspect, then an AC community isn't really going to get alot of momentum going. For GRAW2 it will remain as it is, a few select admins sharing their bans and some names and hashes being thrown around on the forums with whatever "proof" can be rounded up.

Edited by FI_FlimFlam
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Replays. The game sends code back and forth of positioning on player, round fired, objects destroyed, etc. All this is tranlated into numbers and that's how replays worked. They were merely a log (or text) file that was a duplicate of what happened on a server. If someone used a retlock hack it showed up on the replay. I know there prolly isn't any money left to develop replays but IMHO this game (or any other) just won't have any legs because there's little to no way to tell who's cheating. The built in anti-cheat isn't even catching speed hackers.

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Interesting set of posts. Some of you may know me, some of you may not. I ran one of the most active [GR] ladders there was ::TaG:: and consistently had to deal with the issue of cheating.

Some observations I would like to share with you from my considerable experience of dealing with cheaters in Ghost Recon (Over 5 years) are as follows:

GRIN Stop trying to update the Anti Cheat Systems, you are fighting a losing battle, every time you make an update, a new cheat will be created and you will have to produce a new fix. Instead of concentrating on your core operations (Game Development) You will run out of money trying to update a game you have been paid for. (Sorry Guys Its just simple facts)

Grin give the ability to catch cheaters to the people, who want to catch them all the time and in doing so won’t cost you any more development time after the initial development:

There is no point in trying to counteract different cheat code with new AC Code because they will find a way of getting around your code, what you have to provide is a way of people spotting the cheats being used not the code. The code may change, but because this is an FPS the cheats remain the same, they are as follows (and in no particular order)

SIFF (The ability to spot and track the oppositions name no matter where on the map)

Retlock, combat aim, or auto aim/Aim bot and its variants (No, or reduced recoil or the ability to one shot a person anywhere)

Glass walls, Acid Skins Chameleon Skins (The ability to distinguish opposition with high visibility skins, or view that person through solid objects with a multiple of variations)

Speed Hack, Game Speed (Obvious)

Auto Nade, Max Ammo or variants (Obvious)

Sever/Player Booming (Crashing server, or individual players from a game)

These are the cheats used in FPS games, as you stop one set of code that creates one of these effects, another will be programmed. Rest assured most if not all will become apparent in this game IF it becomes successful.

SIFF, Retlock, and speed hack can be caught easily by replays, give server admins the ability to save replays and provide the ability for someone (Third Party) to develop server admin tools to manage replays and so on (Tom from Mass Productions did a great one for [GR] and would stop you wasting time developing it www.mass-productions.com

In relation to Game Speed, having an end game timer on each person’s end screen, showing the amount of time played in game helps a lot, As you speed up your PC your end time in a game shows to be a lot longer than everyone else, very helpful when you swap screenshots, however to make it stick you need to make player screenshots unique to that player, i.e. have the player ID stamped on the corner of the SS with a random GRAW 2 GFX background (otherwise team players will just send of SS from their team mate that wasn’t using the cheat.)

Glass Walls Cham Skins and so on, can in some cases be caught with replays (when the player is stupid) But the best way is to have an SS tool that the server admins can use externally (We used the Match Mole which worked well and without lag, and I know there are others about to help with this. (This one is not your problem and can be sorted out from external 3rd party add on software)

Auto Nade, Max Ammo (Replays)

Booming (Sending data packets to the game server through the announce and join ports) I’m fairly sure you have this sorted

In general, the game and players have consistently requested replays, and that’s what you need to provide, you also need to provide a tighter lockdown for keeping players banned, tie it to the game cd key, so once banned if they want to come back to that server, they need to buy the game again.

I am against you developing and running a global ban system, it takes too long to develop, will cause you no end of trouble/complaints and drain your recourses. If server admins want to share information, they can set up a third party body to do it, or the ladders can create their own ban lists for players to download and use.

Simple fact is, there is no point in concentrating on trying to stop cheaters with clever code. There are thousand of the spotty faced oiks trying to break your ACP as soon as you update it. Concentrate on what the cheats do, they all do the same things, then give the tools to the people who have the time and energy to catch them (The server/ladder admins) and make sure when they ban them from the system, they stay banned or have to buy a new game. Hardware bans are a pipe dream for this game, too much development work, too many complaints to UBI/GRIN and too many headaches.

GRIN, you must have seen my posts about your game, I think on a multiplayer basis, it is without doubt the best game, by far on the market, however, without taking some direct action that allows you to move away from consistent ACP support, the game is bound to fail. Please don’t let it happen.

I have outlined a number of requests that are deliverable and will allow you to step back from the cheating front line. It is my belief, should you deliver this, you will have on your hands an explosively popular game that screams out for chargeable additions (Remember Desert Siege and Island Thunder) Developing new map packs missions and guns for an existing game that has massive demand is a lot more profitable than developing another game for a dwindling audience.

I am more than happy to help in any way, please feel free to email me admin@tagaming.com

Kind regards.

Belial

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With the new patch it looks like the screen shot functionality works and there is a text file that logs some of the stuff you guys have been talking about: match/round time, response time, ping, IP.

The one thing that bugs me is having to admin login every time a new map starts. Could we change this so we don't have to login all the time? Why is it implemented this way?

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The one thing that bugs me is having to admin login every time a new map starts. Could we change this so we don't have to login all the time? Why is it implemented this way?

Yes, please fix the admin login. That drives us nuts. Have to type 150 wpm to ban someone at the start of a map. :wall:

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Not your typical bug or game glitch... it seems the guns (full auto sniper and nade launcher) is embedded in the game code since after you kill the user/cheater and then picking up his weapon, you then can still use the hacked weapon.

Could it be possible that this game hack might have come from one of the people who had a hand in developing this game? Maybe that's why they can bypass the AC because the hack code is included in the actuall game codes, they just trigger it via console cmds?

or maybe I have been watching too many conspiracy theory films again! :)

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Not your typical bug or game glitch... it seems the guns (full auto sniper and nade launcher) is embedded in the game code since after you kill the user/cheater and then picking up his weapon, you then can still use the hacked weapon.

Could it be possible that this game hack might have come from one of the people who had a hand in developing this game? Maybe that's why they can bypass the AC because the hack code is included in the actuall game codes, they just trigger it via console cmds?

or maybe I have been watching too many conspiracy theory films again! :)

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I have to say i'm not sold on the fact there are many hackers in this game at all. Maybe they're just bad or something but there is really only one guy i've run into in the past 3 weeks whom i thought was moderately fishy, even that was more likely my frustration at a bad moment. I think 99% of hax calls in this game are actually people who just have a good set of 5.1 headphones, and crack shots. Who needs wall hacks in this game when people make as much noise as they do?

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Truthfully i have yet to see a hacker in GRAW2. I know 2 of my guys saw the speed hacker once. With the amount of servers and how many hours i play though i'm surprized i haven't. I think that would mean... there isn't many cheating is GRAW2 and the current AC is sufficient until something else arrises.

Just ban him if you see him as it's an easily spotted hack.

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I have seen one or two using the speed hack and I think (??) that's the only one I have seen. Now, with that said it's hard to tell if someone is using a ret hack, or if they are just that good? Not sure how you would tell.. I've seen some guys get 1 shot kills continuiously.. Unless you know of the hack and can reproduce it, i guess we just sit in the 'I'm not sure' pot.

Therefore, I always giveh te benefit of the doubt. I know there aer guys that sit and play this game continuously.. so who am I to say they are hacking.. maybe if Grin released the known hacks, we as a community could ensure they have not been tweaked to work again?

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I encountered a guy once who could not be killed. I emptied two mags into him at close range. HOWEVER, I'm almost certain it was not a cheat, but rather the way in which GRAW 2 manifests lag. I have never experienced what I know as traditional lag with this game. No choppiness, stuttering, warping or any other common symptoms of lag. The game always "appears" smooth. But we all know that not all servers and not all connections are created equal. Some of the servers I've played on must be lagging at some point from time to time. I think the game is manifesting lag by showing me action in a smooth, yet delayed fashion. My screen shows me splattering this guy's blood all over a wall, when in reality he has run away 5 or 10 seconds ago and is nowhere near me anymore. I think the way the game is designed to handle lag makes people appear to be cheating sometimes when they actually aren't. Honestly, I don't think the game is popular enough to catch the attention of the serious hackers. They seem prefer 1000 servers and 50000 players to choose from. Why go to the trouble when one post in these forums gets you banned on all 12 active servers?

Edited by [RS]Stalker
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Stalker' date='Sep 5 2007, 05:36 PM' post='493699']

... one post in these forums gets you banned on all 12 active servers?

I'd hope that's an exaggeration. I KNOW, for instance, that the good folks over at AFZ have a very fair process to undergo before banning a player, and don't typically do so just off the word of any one forum post...

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Stalker' date='Sep 5 2007, 05:36 PM' post='493699']

... one post in these forums gets you banned on all 12 active servers?

I'd hope that's an exaggeration. I KNOW, for instance, that the good folks over at AFZ have a very fair process to undergo before banning a player, and don't typically do so just off the word of any one forum post...

I really wish all teams were so equal hehe. I won't name names but some of the admins on these so called "good" servers are a damn joke.

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