GRAW2: Anti Cheat is needed ASAP

[Guest]

yeppers. it's easy as pie to catch. Don't know if it's the same for the m99 hack though.

Edited August 4, 2007 by durka-durka*BDA*

[sui317]

what on this game you mean?

anyway sorry no good at making videos first attempt.

great video enjoyed it very much

besides the hacking and cheating, it is a nice show of GRAW2

[=WO=TekHousE]

That video Joker posted is just SAD!

One easy fix is to KNOW where and WHO you play with. There ARE some honorable people out there playing on servers.

One of my brothers asked me the other day about GRAW 2. He is building a new PC and wants it to be able to handle it. He also asked me about people hacking already. I said 'sure' people are doing it, but not when its MY server or a server that is setup by one of the reputable squads out there.

The bottom line is pretty soon most servers will be locked. Mine is! I invite players to use it thats it. So if the future of the game is to be BIG and BRIGHT, then GRIN really need to address the situation or work with a 3rd party who can.

We need the tools to admin our servers with more control and accuracy. Please....

[=AO=Stryck_9]

I think that some kind of community anticheat team is a must if this game is to remain viable and matchable. that being said I think that a big part of an good anticheat program in a gaming community is the community component. Having a way for responsible teams to keep their servers clean was very important.

I can use my clans experience in ravenshield as an example . We were members of PsB (punksbusted) and used the ambl (masterbanlist). this was a community run way of keeping the hacking tards out of the servers you liked to frequent. Milars Respected Admins was another organization that did the same thing in rvs we also used the RA banlist even though we werent members of RA. Having publicly accessable banlists allows server admins to make a standard playing field if you will and keeps the bulk of the idiots from ruining the average players gaming experience.

I hope that we end up with a solution for this game because I love its potential. Since I no longer admin servers I will watch from the sidelines and try to keep to respectable team servers when I play, Good luck with this one people.

* edited in my chase for Sleepdocs title

Edited August 5, 2007 by =AO=Stryck_9

[PersianImmortal]

Sadly there are several games I know where it has been discovered that long-term and highly respected players were actually cheating. Cheaters are not always blatant. Some of them are so incredibly subtle that you will never know, even if you spectate from them. This is why there is a need for a combination of software anti-cheat measures (like PunkBuster), the ability to spectate from a player's point of view, and other proper server-side checks which are constantly updated.

There is a culture of cheating which will never be stamped out. Some cheaters actually believe they are "very skilled" because they can cheat with subtlety. I once had a long argument with a cheater in America's Army who was proud of cheating, because he said cheating and not getting caught was even harder than playing normally. Of course this is baloney, since a game is designed to be played within the rules - if you cheat or exploit, you're taking the easy and selfish way out no matter how you want to look at it.

So needless to say, you may find that some very unexpected people are actually cheats, and have been for a long time. Reputation alone is not sufficient to weed out cheats.

Edited August 5, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[|ES|Phoenix]

Replays will be useless unless there are more things in place.

I too played the original GR on The TCZ & Clanbase. If someone was caught cheating then YES they were branded but they could simply change there name and continue in the community with another clan.

Same here, yes you can identify a cheat through a replay but what then ???

Pointless exersise unless you can then get there info from a log file and add then to your banlist because all they have to do is change there name !!

[Cylusion]

Replays will be useless unless there are more things in place.

I too played the original GR on The TCZ & Clanbase. If someone was caught cheating then YES they were branded but they could simply change there name and continue in the community with another clan.

Same here, yes you can identify a cheat through a replay but what then ???

Pointless exersise unless you can then get there info from a log file and add then to your banlist because all they have to do is change there name !!

Servers have logs don't they?!?! ID's and stuff?

(Just asking...Can't ask my Server ADM cause he's kinda g**)

jk

Edited August 5, 2007 by Cylusion!

[WDA_OPTIMUSPRIME]

The thing about PB is it can ban players that don't hack!

From PB when THERE was a sweep and gobal bans in BF2 when she was just a baby I got banned from PB because my PC specs matched a hackers profile, or so I was told that by PB. After weeks of debate with the fools at PB they gave me a new cd key both are now clean.

Thursday 08.17.2006 [2:30PM]

Version 1.247 of the PB Server for BF2 has been released to our PB Master Servers for auto-update and to our website download page. This update converts kicking for Cheat Violation #125003 (including corresponding #98125003) to a Restriction kick. We have confirmed that some non-cheat programs and drivers may cause this violation to be triggered (such as debug DirectX drivers). We encourage admins to give players the benefit of the doubt and remove any bans for this violation.

Source1

Source2

READ the sources #2 shows PB admitting they mess up with drivers all the time!

To GRIN: Have you talk to anyone at PsB to help cruve the problem? Is there a patch coming soon?

[[ZA]Zenjant]

Replays will be useless unless there are more things in place.

I too played the original GR on The TCZ & Clanbase. If someone was caught cheating then YES they were branded but they could simply change there name and continue in the community with another clan.

Same here, yes you can identify a cheat through a replay but what then ???

Pointless exersise unless you can then get there info from a log file and add then to your banlist because all they have to do is change there name !!

I am talking about needing replays for competitive play.

I understand what you are saying about a guy being able to just change his name, and we in fact were able to discover a couple of guys that did so, because they just couldn't keep their mouths shut forever, mentioned it to somebody they thought they could trust and they were banned again.

The rule on TCZ was if one of your members got caught cheating, your squad was done from the ladder. Didn't matter if squad claimed they "didn't know", that squad was done. Keep your own house clean before you come to mine was the idea. This is why ZA is an "invite only" squad since the beginning. Our guys were hand picked after playing on our server for a month, sometimes two. You will never see the message "ZA is recruiting", because if you want in, you must pass the "time test". Some have called it elitist, so be it, I just want to keep my house clean.

Replays were, and are so important to this game. By far the best method of having getting proof for all to see if somebody is cheating. Like I said in my first post it is not 100%, because some have mastered the art of cheating as PersianImmortal has pointed out. The thing is if you have a replay backing you up, you have a much better chance of catching the cheater doing something that you would NEVER see without one.

I am all for some kind of PB, but if I was given the choice of PB or replays, I would choose replays in a split second.

[A4D_Mofoka]

You cannot blame the people here that are a little miffed.

As far as they are concerned they have bought a very expensive coaster for their mugs of tea ..

I'd hate to be the bitter apple of the bunch but this is not the first time my doubts about GR:AW 2 have surfaced. I was upset at the amount of fixes and for the better part the add-ins that made up for the issues encountered in the original GR:AW and yet still having to pay full price for them. I bought this out of spite and because it was a heavy recommendation from a friend but after reading several threads regarding the M99 being to accurate (which they are) or being too damaging (for a 50 cal no less) I came upon this thread and after reading the many responses I am saddened to say this could ruin the game completely if action is not taken quickly.

As with many games there are things that cannot be "Punk Busted" as people come to think. For instance the screen shots posted regarding the "Glitcher" inside the building of BF2. This is not a hack per se but a game glitch, something where the textures or static meshs can be manipulated in such a way that players can access not normal areas of the game. Thus now we have added another delay in the process of fixing the entire problem and by that I mean after the time it takes to actually address the issue as a "game related glitch" and not a hack of any sort, we then have to rely on which ever anti-cheat service i.e. Punk Buster to cordinate effort to make sure the developers are aware of this and to follow up with it as I am sure this amounts to little when it comes to actual glitches that really damper the game.

All in all, I am sure Grin is doing the best they can but honestly after paying $49.99 for something I much consider an expansion of a previous game I am some what hesitant this will not be a quite battle between us and hackers unless a remedy is applied in the form of a anti-cheat much like Punk Buster. Regardless of how much Punk Buster doesn't stop hackers, it slows them down and in most cases reduces the headache by lowering the under ground population, allowing us to at least have a few decent servers to play on.

All in all we'll never have a sure fire way to stop idiots from hacking but we can at least rely on programs like Punk Buster to minimize the traffic.

Edited August 5, 2007 by A4D_Mofoka

[|ES|Phoenix]

Replays won`t keep the scum out of your servers, logs and edditable banlists will.

People like RA and recently ACAU (http://www.anticheatadminsunited.com/index.php) have been using log files and PsB tools to bust bad guys for years.

The MBL from PsB streams to servers 24/7, if a guy is added to that MBL then it is streamed to all servers. Looking at GRAW2 it seems if someone is busted on your server thats it !! Would be nice to get a streamable banlist going and the only place to turn to for that IMHO is Punksbusted.

It`s quite simple, if the guys at GRIN can listen to its public then GRAW2 has the possibility of being the communitys next big game but if all these comments go on wasted ears then it will flop and yet again the PC gaming community will yet again be let down.

We (Elite Shooters UK) are trying out GRAW2 after 4 years as an RvS clan and prior to that 3 years as an [GR] clan. We find ourselves locking our servers because of the blatent cheats. Thats not how it should be, we should be able to let people come, play and have fun because at the end of the day thats what it is all about, meeting new players and creating rappore with other clans.

It really is a shame that our server is locked but like many others we are dissapointed ...

Simple quote .... "Balls In Your Court Grin" ..

[ruggbutt]

After seeing the closemindedness over at PSB with Witness and the beta MD5 tool, I have no faith in that particular group being fair.

[FI_FlimFlam]

Let's not go there again please.... We know your stance on Psb and PB many times over. Let others have their say as well.

[WD[13th]B071LD3]

almost a week after the first post and none have been done

[Bloooz07]

B071LD3' date='Aug 7 2007, 01:54 PM' post='485335']

almost a week after the first post and none have been done

Dammit, it has been nearly a whole week and the devs have not been able to completely fix the entire cheat problem. They should be hung, drawn and quartered!!!!!!!!

Now seriously, they are working on a patch and we will get it when it is ready. It will probably not include evrything that everyone wants but reworking stuff takes time. Please try to show some patience.

[sui317]

in a week time you could have found the cheats on internet and mail the cheats to grin, did you ? cause then you might help a bit rather than just whine about it WD[13th]B071LD3.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Replays won`t keep the scum out of your servers, logs and edditable banlists will.

People like RA and recently ACAU (http://www.anticheatadminsunited.com/index.php) have been using log files and PsB tools to bust bad guys for years.

The MBL from PsB streams to servers 24/7, if a guy is added to that MBL then it is streamed to all servers. Looking at GRAW2 it seems if someone is busted on your server thats it !! Would be nice to get a streamable banlist going and the only place to turn to for that IMHO is Punksbusted.

It`s quite simple, if the guys at GRIN can listen to its public then GRAW2 has the possibility of being the communitys next big game but if all these comments go on wasted ears then it will flop and yet again the PC gaming community will yet again be let down.

We (Elite Shooters UK) are trying out GRAW2 after 4 years as an RvS clan and prior to that 3 years as an [GR] clan. We find ourselves locking our servers because of the blatent cheats. Thats not how it should be, we should be able to let people come, play and have fun because at the end of the day thats what it is all about, meeting new players and creating rappore with other clans.

It really is a shame that our server is locked but like many others we are dissapointed ...

Simple quote .... "Balls In Your Court Grin" ..

1st you have to understand you are mis informing people.

#1 THE BAN LIST is edible and every server that pm'd Viiper got the full text to add into theres. Problem resolved scum gone

#2 It bans by a hash id which is part of the offenders cd key and i think hardware identifier encrypted. You can copy it with the rest of the info which it also bans by... IP address and name, and CD Hash.

There banning system actually works VERY well and I have yet to see a banned cheater come back (that i have been aware of)

Get the facts before you whine about what you do not know

[Lightspeed]

hello grin viktor

is there anyway to introduce a replays system...i dont think so with GRAW as i recall, however, it can supposedly be done with other higher end engines at present.

cheating is one of the reasons i switched to COOP - cos you dont have to deal with guys with small things who don't know what a fair fight is.

[MILAR]

I have been following this thread pretty closely. While some on here dislike PB what most don't understand is that PB is as only as good as the server admins make it. PSB is the same way. All the cvar and md5 checks were not made from PB, but from server admins from psb, RA etc.. Sometimes there are false positives there is no denying that. But the false positive are greatly out weighed by the amount of cheaters it does bust. There is no comparison.

You will always have cheaters in MP games. Its how it is handled is what makes the difference. If you cant stop the basic hacks, then there is no hope for the more advanced ones.

People whine about cheaters then they whine about the Anti-cheat measures. I dont get it.

Edited August 7, 2007 by MILAR

[Bota:16]

I have been following this thread pretty closely. While some on here dislike PB what most don't understand is that PB is as only as good as the server admins make it. PSB is the same way. All the cvar and md5 checks were not made from PB, but from server admins from psb, RA etc.. Sometimes there are false positives there is no denying that. But the false positive are greatly out weighed by the amount of cheaters it does bust. There is no comparison.

You will always have cheaters in MP games. Its how it is handled is what makes the difference. If you cant stop the basic hacks, then there is no hope for the more advanced ones.

People whine about cheaters then they whine about the Anti-cheat measures. I dont get it.

Because people have to find something to complain about. Just as you said about PB, any anit-cheat is only what you make of it. PB by itself isn't all that great, but with things like RA, PsB, PBBans it makes PB a tremendous tool for catching cheaters and keeping them off servers. Is it perfect? No, but I'd rather have it than nothing.

[ruggbutt]

cheating is one of the reasons i switched to COOP - cos you dont have to deal with guys with small things who don't know what a fair fight is.

I have a replay of a dude using a belt fed in GR on a coop mission from our server. He was using retlock.

[AA_sKILLsEw]

LOL, they have our money, just as before. Are we all gonna buy the next one??

Hackers will continue to hack, whiners will continue to whine. Exploiters will, you know. etc.etc.

Played Ravenshield since the demo. They(the powers that be) stopped caring about one of the most popular games ever years ago...Why you ask??

> 11.30.04 - New Rainbow Six Game Announced! <---(Last news given on www.raven-shield.com)

> 10.25.04 - Raven Shield Patch v1.6 and Athena Sword Patch v1.10 NOW AVAILABLE

New game announced. Thank you, come again, give us your $50. GGs

If you were Ubi, PB, any company. i.e. MICROSOFT. Would you care about an old product you already made your money on??? Hell no. You will continue to put all of your resources into your 'new' product to SELL. To make more 'money' to make the next game "better." Which means you will have to buy a new video card, because the 'new' game won't run on your 'old' card. Its an endless cycle. And we just keep chasing.

But then again, what would YOU do in their situation?

Not discrediting Grin, they may be different. I doubt it. But I wouldn't blame them. And it won't matter. They can't spend infinite time and resources on ONE games anti-cheat and police it. I wouldn't.

Edited August 8, 2007 by AA_sKILLsEw

[ruggbutt]

Not discrediting Grin, they may be different. I doubt it. But I wouldn't blame them. And it won't matter. They can't spend infinite time and resources on ONE games anti-cheat and police it. I wouldn't.

They could give us the tools and let us police our servers.

[AA_sKILLsEw]

The replay tool??? Like they said, only relevant in competition situations. (which would be nice) Otherwise we already have one, its called Fraps.

SS tool??? Its that [Print Scrn] button on your keyboard...

But, as seen in RvS, I can SS you and photoshop it so damned well, you "could" be banned. Are you going to police all the SS's and videos? Who do you expect to do so?

When I send you a ban hash, are you going to believe me? No, we would need proof. But if not SS's then its up to fraps. Did Fraps see that guys apparent wallhack?? Nope.

|RA| ftw???

Only if the 'replay tool' could 100% see what the hacker is seeing. Will it? With a server side command to fire it up?... Or are we gonna stockpile video? Things could get slow.

Or maybe a quick button for server SS? Or a video toggle for any selected player?

I agree with an M.B.L. type list. Will we have one?

Otherwise you already have the tools...

/ban... go to ban list{ctrl+c} ...go to website{ctrl+v} As we all have already done with the 8incher(-5 ")... And thats just because he was completely obvious about it.

Eager to brainstorm on what 'can' be done.

P.S.

This is my 1st G.R. experience, I am ignorant about the replay tool, how did it work?

Edited August 8, 2007 by AA_sKILLsEw

[PersianImmortal]

As I've mentioned before, I am totally against community enforcement as the main means of detecting and banning cheaters. For starters this will only detect the obvious cheats. And all it takes is for one "well known" clan or individual to accuse a newcomer, and guess who is going to have their way, whether or not the accusation is true. Just because you're established in the community, doesn't mean you're not a cheater, or that you can spot cheaters with 100% accuracy. By the same token just because you're new, doesn't mean that you are a cheater if you play well.

For example there are times when I've had multiple kills in a short space of time because the MP5 is very accurate and has low recoil, and the enemy have grouped together. I'm sure this can look suspicious if someone sees 3 or 4 people being killed within a couple of seconds by the MP5. I've already been accused of cheating by a well-known clan, but fortunately after playing more with them I'm sure they know I'm not a cheater now.

In terms of practical solutions, what is really required is the incorporation of a regularly updated anti-cheat software such as PB. Either that, or a commitment by Ubisoft to fund regular updates to GRAW 2's existing anti-cheat with patches. I doubt either will happen.

If self-policing is the only option we have left, at least give us deathcam view for players on a server in all game modes. That way several people can spectate from a suspicious team mate. Even then, again it's very hard to capture good cheaters this way.