What is GRAW2 really

[Papa6]

I was struggling to find a word to explain what GRAW2 is. My humble opinion is that GRAW2 and GRAW were both too encapsulated, confined, closed.. too tightly packaged.

while I enjoy the shoot ups, i'm starting to tire quickly, perhaps even to boredom to some degree.

What I'm missing is the GR in GRAW2. Ghost Recon..Recon:sometimes referred to as scouting, is the military term for the active gathering of information about an enemy, or other conditions, by physical observation. is GRAW2 anything Recon? no- we went in, fought to get a nuclear weapon out of the rebel control. no recon involved there. also I might add that we did no scouting, we just ram our asses into an area of observation and shoot it out with the enemy, in more or less a smaller version of cold war style combat. head on!

weapons kits. they are too restrictive and don't indicate anything close to what spec ops would be able to use. what about being able to use foreign weapons? GR1 we could use the damn AK47 if we wanted.

this future warfighter stuff: what a joke. to me, it's a kiddie gimmick to get some kid excited about running around and being some hardcore future soldier.

But I can't completely bash GRAW2 without drawing some good. the gameplay looks to be more GR1 in some way. the gameplay is smoother and things look visually better.

now the visuals. on the coop_timber map, they compensated the draw distance by making timber open with more avenues of approach but the hills keep your vision within the 150m distance and give you the illusion of looking long range-BS.

I was pleased with GRAW2 at release, hell even from the demo but, what's left? I've played all the missions and I'm not having any fun with the MP mode as too many tubers, so I'm stuck with 3 coop maps. real nice thanks.

I'm sure that GRAW2 is better than GRAW was in many ways but I'm sitting here with a $50 game that's getting old and boring fast. I'm amazed at how the enemy AI pop my ass outside of the draw distance and I can't even see them on a straight line in the open. I'm probably going to finish up my M24 weapon mod and then I'll see from there.

GROUND BRANCH is looking better every day.

added: some may be thinking that I'm the cheese slipping off the cracker, no the game with all it's glory it could be is getting boring fast. very boring. I'm feeling like it's the it's a small world ride at Disneyland..just boring.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Papa6

[WhiteKnight77]

I would have to say I feel for ya about the future warrior type stuff. While we may have some of those weapons in the near future along with the gadgets portrayed in the game, I would prefer what we have or use already in the US arsenal.

Again, GRAW is more of a direct action game over the GR1 type of game as more gamers would rather have action then trying to sneak around as many of us liked with GR. Ubi knows this and it shows as look at those recent arrivals who while liking this game somewhat, are comparing it to other games with an arcade style of gameplay. Unfortunately, the GR series is headed that way as the R6 series already has.

Is it GRIN's fault that GRAW is the way it is? I don't think so as Ubi is their handlers in anything GRAW related. Did Ubi allow them free reign to produce a better game than the console version? Most likely, but it still is not like the previous game that many of us still love to play.

[Papa6]

I would have to say I feel for ya about the future warrior type stuff. While we may have some of those weapons in the near future along with the gadgets portrayed in the game, I would prefer what we have or use already in the US arsenal.

Again, GRAW is more of a direct action game over the GR1 type of game as more gamers would rather have action then trying to sneak around as many of us liked with GR. Ubi knows this and it shows as look at those recent arrivals who while liking this game somewhat, are comparing it to other games with an arcade style of gameplay. Unfortunately, the GR series is headed that way as the R6 series already has.

Is it GRIN's fault that GRAW is the way it is? I don't think so as Ubi is their handlers in anything GRAW related. Did Ubi allow them free reign to produce a better game than the console version? Most likely, but it still is not like the previous game that many of us still love to play.

OMG, I couldn't agree with you more on the bolded part above. yeah I'm slowly succumbing to the fact that maybe the GR franchise and I are about to part ways for good in the not so distant future.

I didn't mean to complain but this party is getting old

[ROCO*AFZ*]

You my friends need to get into laddering. it will be about intesity and the hunt will be on.

[Biro]

GRAW2 is a game rushed out by the publisher (UBI), the content is more narrow then my gf's ability too cook dinner and that should really tell something...

On the other side, the diesel engine and the gameplay itself is pure solid work. What's missing is the content in form of more coop mission, more quality maps and overall more choices in weapons and so on.

I have faith in that GRIN will release additional content and that hopefully some few modders will be able to make some good mods for the game. The possibilites for a really good game is without doubt there.

[Brainman2k]

Again, GRAW is more of a direct action game over the GR1 type of game as more gamers would rather have action then trying to sneak around as many of us liked with GR. Ubi knows this and it shows as look at those recent arrivals who while liking this game somewhat, are comparing it to other games with an arcade style of gameplay. Unfortunately, the GR series is headed that way as the R6 series already has.

i dont see it that way. you can still sneak around and be stealthy. maybe the areas are not that wide open as they were in gr.

and graw1/2 are the far better successors of gr, than r6 letdown and vega$ to r6. on the vegas-pc-version we got 3rd-person-view there...

imo i can feel the spirit of gr in graw2, too. maybe its not the same type of game but it evolved into the right direction. besides: you cannot develop the SAME game every time over and over again. something that the fallout-community is experiencing with fallout3 from bethesta, too btw.

i am sad, that you feel that way about graw1/2. i see the effort grin put into the game and also please us gamers with things we requested here in the forums. maybe graw2 isnt a perfect game...it has only 10 levels, buggy multiplayer, etc. but that can be fixed by patches and/or modding.

[Papa6]

You my friends need to get into laddering. it will be about intesity and the hunt will be on.

Not so much laddering Roco but matching. some have been trying to get matching leagues going but there's no real way to adjust missions for variety without mod tools.

I feel like I'm 15 minutes into a movie and see on the movie screen "Be patient, the rest of the movie is going to be released soon." why not rewind the last 15 minutes and enjoy it in other ways? perhaps with friends?...

[Al-Cobra]

I think that if there had been more recon, there would have been even more bitching about how "boring" it is. Remember those pesky recon missions in Rainbow Six where the level would end upon detection? Everyone HATED them. I was modestly good at them so I didn't mind too much which is why I would not have minded seeing a recon mission or two here. Maybe a mission where you must tag all of the enemies on a map without engaging any of them or something like that would have been an interesting challenge.

That said, the game does need some more dynamic levels with a bit more color and varying scenery. I'd love to see a steamy jungles or even a city that isn't bombed to sh!t. I'd love to see some civilians that run when it hits the fan or some pristine neighborhoods that you can blast away at to kill some evil oil sheik. My hopes still lie with the impending tools. If we can just hang onto the fact that the actual game play is solid, most of our other problems might get modded away.

don't give up, guys, this game has a great feel, great physics, cool animations and a ton of potential. Go play a few rounds of the competition and if you still feel the way you do ..... then you'll be missed.

[Papa6]

I think whiteknight77 hit it on the head. it appears that the gaming crowd wants pure action, screw the tactical stuff.

[WhiteKnight77]

Again, GRAW is more of a direct action game over the GR1 type of game as more gamers would rather have action then trying to sneak around as many of us liked with GR. Ubi knows this and it shows as look at those recent arrivals who while liking this game somewhat, are comparing it to other games with an arcade style of gameplay. Unfortunately, the GR series is headed that way as the R6 series already has.

i dont see it that way. you can still sneak around and be stealthy. maybe the areas are not that wide open as they were in gr.

and graw1/2 are the far better successors of gr, than r6 letdown and vega$ to r6. on the vegas-pc-version we got 3rd-person-view there...

imo i can feel the spirit of gr in graw2, too. maybe its not the same type of game but it evolved into the right direction. besides: you cannot develop the SAME game every time over and over again. something that the fallout-community is experiencing with fallout3 from bethesta, too btw.

i am sad, that you feel that way about graw1/2. i see the effort grin put into the game and also please us gamers with things we requested here in the forums. maybe graw2 isnt a perfect game...it has only 10 levels, buggy multiplayer, etc. but that can be fixed by patches and/or modding.

Think about it, why did so many people like GR to begin with. They could not just run out and not get shot. Everyone of us who liked GR found that we had to take it slow and easy to beat the missions. People new to the TC type of games were amazed at how it played, once they figured it out and made the comments here as to it.

With GR2 not being published for the PC as the console version wasn't what we wanted, Ubi knew that those of us who loved GR would not want a linear and arcade type game. Still they allowed GRIN to make GRAW and GRAW2. Both games were alright, but look around, people are playing them differently as attested to posts in this thread and others here. Small levels or linear levels that do not offer the openess of the original has hampered laddering and matching along with dismal Coop support. I know GRIN has tried to give us the game we want, but as I said Ubi has hamstrung them.

I am sure I will have more to say on this eventually, but my shift is over. CY'all later.

[viiiper]

You my friends need to get into laddering. it will be about intesity and the hunt will be on.

Laddering is not for everyone, what Papa6 is saying is what many are feeling. The maps are cycling around and around, the best part for me was the four man campaign coop, it was awesome with 3 friends and the 12 man coop too. The coop is killing itself, with only 3 maps of quality an editor that is still vapour ware and a group of mappers that may just have a steep learning curve with Autodesks 3DMax, we are in for a bumpy ride. Multiplayer is surviving because of player drive (just) and when servers switch down from the 10+ spawn TDM to 5 and less, the game will change.

I agree with Papa6 the recon is thin (none) to say the least, the best part of recon is the camo and how good it is, the saving grace of this part. Grin has promised an editor and tools where we will make our own modes of play, I look forward to them as the 'recon' mode which RVSA has little of, will be the one to recreate.

RECON: (a mode for the future)

In recon the aim is to get to an objective, gaining extra points from spotting the enemy targets but not engaging them. Both teams have an objective each, the game relies on the two teams having to cross paths on approach to their objective

The enemy targets are marked once spotted. If you engage a target the enemy scores points, you only get the chance of the kill and stop that enemy marking other members of your team.

The ideas that will come, could lift this game but only with the tools GRIN give us, time will tell. (infact 2 weeks will tell ).

viii

p.s. Good thread papa6

[Fletch]

The whole problem is the MAPS are to restrictive. The reason GR was Recon was you could always find a way to scout things out and sidestep the enemy. In GR:AW and GR:AW2 the maps lead you down tight paths from one objective to the next and if you dare to deivate from their path, they end the game by killing you.

I have high hopes that the Map Modders will make for us the types of maps that we love, (wide open) where you can go in any direction and the triggers on the enemy AI are not limited to a single path that you must follow or else. If they could do all these things in GR back in 2001 why can't we have at least the same or better now?

[sui317]

@papa6

you posted somewhere about differences in battles

and what graw was and what gr was and what graw2 is

you explained pretty well how wars change and that the game reflects that.

as for recon R6/GR style

once the editor is working and we get some tutorials we can make Recon.

the maps provided by grin are pretty good and suited for them, it is just that the AI needs to be adjusted for that kind of game play cause what we see in SP is often the need to kill 90% of the AI to get through.

i'll bet on it that if a modder/mapper/scripter can make a game where you have the original RECON rules no killing just extraction point graw2

will have the face we want it to, and if i look at the SP and COOP maps i know that the AI can be adjusted for that game type.

one good example is the AI stupid thread with the video of tinker that showed AI being ignorent of motionless players

i'll bet that if one moved or stood up right the AI would have noticed.

[Brainman2k]

Again, GRAW is more of a direct action game over the GR1 type of game as more gamers would rather have action then trying to sneak around as many of us liked with GR. Ubi knows this and it shows as look at those recent arrivals who while liking this game somewhat, are comparing it to other games with an arcade style of gameplay. Unfortunately, the GR series is headed that way as the R6 series already has.

i dont see it that way. you can still sneak around and be stealthy. maybe the areas are not that wide open as they were in gr.

and graw1/2 are the far better successors of gr, than r6 letdown and vega$ to r6. on the vegas-pc-version we got 3rd-person-view there...

imo i can feel the spirit of gr in graw2, too. maybe its not the same type of game but it evolved into the right direction. besides: you cannot develop the SAME game every time over and over again. something that the fallout-community is experiencing with fallout3 from bethesta, too btw.

i am sad, that you feel that way about graw1/2. i see the effort grin put into the game and also please us gamers with things we requested here in the forums. maybe graw2 isnt a perfect game...it has only 10 levels, buggy multiplayer, etc. but that can be fixed by patches and/or modding.

Think about it, why did so many people like GR to begin with. They could not just run out and not get shot. Everyone of us who liked GR found that we had to take it slow and easy to beat the missions. People new to the TC type of games were amazed at how it played, once they figured it out and made the comments here as to it.

With GR2 not being published for the PC as the console version wasn't what we wanted, Ubi knew that those of us who loved GR would not want a linear and arcade type game. Still they allowed GRIN to make GRAW and GRAW2. Both games were alright, but look around, people are playing them differently as attested to posts in this thread and others here. Small levels or linear levels that do not offer the openess of the original has hampered laddering and matching along with dismal Coop support. I know GRIN has tried to give us the game we want, but as I said Ubi has hamstrung them.

I am sure I will have more to say on this eventually, but my shift is over. CY'all later.

concerning gr2 youre right all the way. as for graw1/2 comparing to [GR]: i do play the mssions like i would in [GR]. i never liked the soul-switching of [GR], so im ok with the team-leader-function controlling a squad. i dont know how the guy from the "a.i."-movie managed to run and gun even in hardcore-mode and not being shot. everytime i try this im dead in a couple of minutes. as i said: i can play graw1/2 just like i would play the missions in [GR]. and thats exactly what i wanted...its even more tactical when you use the tac-map, drone and your squad.

a pure recon-mode, like viiper suggested, would be no mode i would play. besides all the recon and stealth i want ro get some action. otherwise i would play splinter cell, which i hated.

[BS PALADIN]

I was thinking about buying GRAW 2 for the PC as i was massively dissappointed by the console version. But from the sounds of it GRAW 2 on the PC is as bad as the console version. I hate FKING linear maps. The whole premise of GR was open terrrain where you decided how to acheive the objectives. GR is not about on the rails action rides. Its about planning, patience and tactics. If you wanted stealth then you played stealthy, if you wanted action then you went in the front door. Personally i liked to mix it up and thats was the beauty of Ghost Recon. You made the decisions.

Unless a miracle happens Ghost Recon is dead. UBI should be rounded up and shot for bastardising the Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six franchises.

Edited July 31, 2007 by BS PALADIN

[Lightspeed]

Is it just me or does Papa seem to change his opinion like he changes his underwear?

One minute you say its awesome and as realistic as it gets..the next, it's a waste of money.

I can't keep up.

We are all aware that some modding is required, but what GRIN did give us is the foundation of a brilliant game, as well as, some state of the art game material already.

Some things need some tweaking, yes, but a lot of things are already spectacular.

GRIN gave you (us) a good $50US worth which doesnt go far nowadays as it is. You got a lot of bang for your buck.

Once we get modding tools - we already have map modding available, you could/will get even more.

[sui317]

nah it's not just you who notices papa6 going up and down like a rollercoaster

[Lightspeed]

and one more thing - i would have some faith in the GR.NET and other veteran GR Modders out there. They are seriously good and know how to put intelligent and challenging COOP Missions together.

We will conquer.

[BS PALADIN]

Why should the modding community be responsible for making the game good. Should we not get a good - great game already and then the modding community expand on it. Are we that starved of a quality Ghost Recon title that we make excuses for GRIN/UBI by saying at least its got a solid foundation that we can mod into a great game.

[Kurtz]

We did get a good game, a very good game, with as much tactics as you want to use, and it is the closest thing to GR as anything on the market.

[sui317]

@ BS paladin

no it is not like that, at least not for me,

but i can not be angry at grin for the time frame they have to work with and still full fill our high expectations

most of us look at GR with mods and two expansion packs in mind as being one game.

this can never be done by a dev team in a year.

not even two years, cause with all the mods and experiance they can't compete.

ubi on the other hand has two things in mind, keeping the name alive cause it is selling, and second each title has to sell.

GR was made on the basis of R6 engine, graw tried to go a different path by being a GRIN product on their diesel engine, and now they are trying/ working to make it so that the old fan base can find them selfs in it.

this is no easy task and alone that task is worse than making a game.

i have seen grin go with the flow of these forums and they do their best.

so with their directives from UBI and our wishes and whims i think they do a great job on this game and i for one do not expect a flaw less game

because their support effort is flawless.

they are between two hot fires

us and UBI and that is a tight rope walk you should look at.

it is like having two kids each demanding something that contradicts the other and you have to satisfy them both.

and if this is making excuses, so be it, i'd make more if required.

Edited July 31, 2007 by sui317

[ROCO*AFZ*]

You my friends need to get into laddering. it will be about intesity and the hunt will be on.

Not so much laddering Roco but matching. some have been trying to get matching leagues going but there's no real way to adjust missions for variety without mod tools.

I feel like I'm 15 minutes into a movie and see on the movie screen "Be patient, the rest of the movie is going to be released soon." why not rewind the last 15 minutes and enjoy it in other ways? perhaps with friends?...

LOL Matching and laddering are usually the same when it's team based and no spawns.

BTW Team warfare just put up there North American Power ladder and there is 7 teams already. this week also AFZ and i do believe SCE will also be signing up... 9 teams in the 1st week the ladder was up. GRAW1 was lucky to get 4.

[viiiper]

You my friends need to get into laddering. it will be about intesity and the hunt will be on.

Not so much laddering Roco but matching. some have been trying to get matching leagues going but there's no real way to adjust missions for variety without mod tools.

I feel like I'm 15 minutes into a movie and see on the movie screen "Be patient, the rest of the movie is going to be released soon." why not rewind the last 15 minutes and enjoy it in other ways? perhaps with friends?...

LOL Matching and laddering are usually the same when it's team based and no spawns.

BTW Team warfare just put up there North American Power ladder and there is 7 teams already. this week also AFZ and i do believe SCE will also be signing up... 9 teams in the 1st week the ladder was up. GRAW1 was lucky to get 4.

N.American ladders / matches are all good if you live there, but the true ladder is a global ladder network where N.American players have to play on European & Asian servers and visa versa.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/ goto it there is no mention on there front page, loads of coverage? goto COMPETITION http://www.teamwarfare.com/ladderlist.asp NOTHING

NOW goto HELP and you find it, but it's all segregated, like a South African apatite So you ladder in NA while we do it in EU & THE REST OF THE WORLD? sounds like American football? rest of the world soccer?

One competition for all, why is it so hard?

[Peace]

One competition for all, why is it so hard?

The obvious, time differences and ping...

[BS PALADIN]

@ BS paladin

no it is not like that, at least not for me,

but i can not be angry at grin for the time frame they have to work with and still full fill our high expectations

most of us look at GR with mods and two expansion packs in mind as being one game.

this can never be done by a dev team in a year.

not even two years, cause with all the mods and experiance they can't compete.

ubi on the other hand has two things in mind, keeping the name alive cause it is selling, and second each title has to sell.

GR was made on the basis of R6 engine, graw tried to go a different path by being a GRIN product on their diesel engine, and now they are trying/ working to make it so that the old fan base can find them selfs in it.

this is no easy task and alone that task is worse than making a game.

i have seen grin go with the flow of these forums and they do their best.

so with their directives from UBI and our wishes and whims i think they do a great job on this game and i for one do not expect a flaw less game

because their support effort is flawless.

they are between two hot fires

us and UBI and that is a tight rope walk you should look at.

it is like having two kids each demanding something that contradicts the other and you have to satisfy them both.

and if this is making excuses, so be it, i'd make more if required.

Most of my anger is directed at UBI believe me. I think GRIN and RSE ( 360 version) are pawns. And that the problem. A publisher is telling developers how to make a game. But i still cant see why the GRAW games have stepped away from the GR franchise so much. GR has some basic principles that seem to have been thrown out the window in favour of mass appeal casual fun. For example GRAW 2 on the 360 came with the same crappy siege from GRAW when the community made it clear they wanted wither [GR] or GR2 siege. The developers for both systems say they listen to the community but they must be taking the wrong information onboard because when i look at GRAW 2 ( PC and 360 ) i see very little of the true GR spirit in them.

And from my point of view the orginal Ghost Recon in its initial state was 1000 times the game that either GRAW games are.